37 replies to this topic

[Patchface12]

I was dissapointed about the House of Undying, but I had my hopes pretty low since I didn't hear about Aerys, Rhaegar and Elia, and the Undying being cast.

However, the vision of the Red Keep burned out and abandoned in the middle of Winter makes me wonder. I was a big fan of the theory about Dany and co. using Aerys old wildfyre caches to destroy the Others during an attack on KL, and Martin has given the gist of the ending to D & D. Could this have been what they were alluding to?

[Tourniquet]

I wonder if it was winter or if it was ash (Dragon Fire)...?

[Independent George]

I think it's more that when winter comes, the game of thrones ceases to matter. When the Long Night comes, kings and peasants will dies just the same, and the iron throne is just another uncomfortable chair in just another ruin.

[Bride of Winter]

I like that idea. I couldn't figure out if it was snow or ash, but I like winter more.

also, this has been bugging me. I'll post it here instead of the other HOTU thread so more people can see it. I know D&D know the endgame, so how do these new theories fit in with the ones in the series? are they just different ways of articulating the same point (Dany visiting the Wall instead of seeing the blue flower growing out of the chink of ice)? because personally I don't remember any vision or prophecy even similar to hers in the throne room, or even being at the wall. If this is their "dumbing down" the end game (for lack of better words) for TV viewers, I'm not sure how I feel about them giving so much away so quickly.

This is of course assuming they're following the same broad stroke as the books as far as the ending goes. I won't even consider the alternative that they're fabricating their own endgame.

[Prince of the North]

I was disappointed that there was no vision of Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon but then I realized that they probably want to save that particular reveal for closer to when it will matter.  That's the M. O. of the show: they don't want to introduce characters or plot points only to have them not show up again in any meaningful sense for another two seasons.  I think that was the case.

Also, along the same lines as what Independent George said, yes, the Game of Thrones is already petty.  Just imagine how utterly meaningless it would become if the upcoming Battle for the Dawn is lost?!  That's why while I do believe R+L=J, I don't think Jon's ass will ever touch the Iron Throne (and Dany's may not either).  They have much bigger fish to fry, you see, and life is not a song

[sarah.jenice]

Like the majority of book readers, I was disappointed in the Dany's visit to the House the Undying, but after thinking long and hard about why the changes were made, I've come up with a couple of possible reasons other than budget and time.

1. We can see everything - The fact that we can actually see what Dany does instead of just getting her description could make her visions much more obvious, which would ruin the effect for most of the viewers because we would know exactly what is happening or who it is showing. Dany doesn't recognize the majority of the people she sees so we don't know what the visions mean at that point. For example, in the RW vision, the Northmen have pretty recognizable costumes and so when we saw people in those particular costumes butchered and Grey Wind's head on a body that looks like what Robb wears, we'd know who was dead. In the vision of King Aerys, we would recognize Jamie Lannister. When she sees Rhaegar die and he whispers a woman's name, we could hear him say the name. She just says a woman's name because she doesn't recognize the name, but we would. The corpse at the prow of the ship, the blue-eyed king (proof that it's Stannis) and the beast that breathes shadow fire (a Griffin?) - all of these could be identified by book readers and maybe George doesn't want that clear of confirmation at this point.

2. Non-book readers probably wouldn't understand most of it - Most of the visions wouldn't be clear to non-readers. They don't know anything about the blue rose or Rhaegar's rubies or his potential Lyanna relationship.

I think they chose visions that could be identified by TV-viewers, but perhaps express the overall meaning of what Dany needs to know, which is perhaps what Independent George said earlier - I think it's more that when winter comes, the game of thrones ceases to matter. When the Long Night comes, kings and peasants will dies just the same, and the iron throne is just another uncomfortable chair in just another ruin.

I do think they could have at least said the dragon has three heads and included the statements that they say that didn't have visions - three fires, three treasons and three mounts.

I am hopeful that this will be rectified by having Quaithe tell Dany these things before they leave Qarth. It could work with her saying it and she has established herself as a more trustworthy person to receive prophecy from while the Undying were complete villains in the show.

Edited by sarah.jenice, 05 June 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[Lord of Cheese]

I thought she went into the HotU because Pyat Pree offered her wisdom and knowledge. So that is why she saw what she saw in the books when she went from room to room.

TVHotU made it about... nothing really... she is just getting her dragons back. There was no point to any of what she saw or even why she saw anything at all. They showed her seeing winter coming and then found an excuse to get Jason Momoa (fan favouritism??) back into the series. Pointless.

[Harimad]

Prince of the North, on 05 June 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I was disappointed that there was no vision of Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon but then I realized that they probably want to save that particular reveal for closer to when it will matter.  That's the M. O. of the show: they don't want to introduce characters or plot points only to have them not show up again in any meaningful sense for another two seasons.  I think that was the case.

Also, along the same lines as what Independent George said, yes, the Game of Thrones is already petty.  Just imagine how utterly meaningless it would become if the upcoming Battle for the Dawn is lost?!  That's why while I do believe R+L=J, I don't think Jon's ass will ever touch the Iron Throne (and Dany's may not either).  They have much bigger fish to fry, you see, and life is not a song

I was really hoping for Rhaegar, but i knew it was pointless.I was expecting more out of the HOTU but it always confused the 7 hells out of me in the book and I cant imagine what it would be like for non-readers.

I also was curious as to whether it was ash or snow, although either way, it was a beautiful shot.

i was bummed not to have the Undying/rotting heart scene. Pyatt lighting on fire was "meh."

I for one kind of hope that Jon doesn't end up on the throne. The iron throne does not bode well for the arses that sit upon it...haha

I have been wondering how the caches of wildfire beneath the city will turn out as well, especially since in Jaime's POVs we've found out a little bit more about it.

I'm not a Dany fan on book or screen (love Emilia, though) so I honestly am hoping for a typically Targaryen end for her. And one that does not involve her and Jon. Gross.

Edited by Harimad, 05 June 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[Harimad]

Lord of Cheese, on 05 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

I thought she went into the HotU because Pyat Pree offered her wisdom and knowledge. So that is why she saw what she saw in the books when she went from room to room.

TVHotU made it about... nothing really... she is just getting her dragons back. There was no point to any of what she saw or even why she saw anything at all. They showed her seeing winter coming and then found an excuse to get Jason Momoa (fan favouritism??) back into the series. Pointless.

I agree they could have somehow snuck some of the more important prophecies in there...there could have been a million Pyat Prees whispering to her that would have been incredibly eerie....

I actually liked the Jason Momoa scene, but I would have liked it better if it wasn't the only scene. I think it was an interesting portrayal of what her life could have been if she hadn't chosen the dragons

[Harimad]

Did anyone else laugh when Dany said "my home is in Westeros" and Pyat said "it will be a long time before you go home" (that was not verbatim, I know) ?

In ADWD....still waiting....

[Morvran]

Prince of the North, on 05 June 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I was disappointed that there was no vision of Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon but then I realized that they probably want to save that particular reveal for closer to when it will matter.

I'm not convinced they'll ever do a Rhaegar, Elia flashback because I'm not sure the non-reader audience can handle one.  They'd have to start on that right away and keep the theme going for people to get it.  If they do it, I'll consider it more icing on an already good cake, but I don't have my hopes up.

That said, if they're to introduce the Dorne story they need to either get into that backstory or create a new one, and I can't imagine them just creating a new one.

[Reposado]

sarah.jenice, on 05 June 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

2. Non-book readers probably wouldn't understand most of it - Most of the visions wouldn't be clear to non-readers. They don't know anything about the blue rose or Rhaegar's rubies or his potential Lyanna relationship.

They would puzzle it out quickly enough. non-readers often watch shows closely and focus on details and what they could mean. Look at the way people analyze Breaking Bad, Lost etc.  People who have not read the books are watching this show just as closely. even if they didn't mean anything immediately, they would remember and discuss

[WolveseatDragons]

I certainly understand why there was no RW vision and I'm fine with it.  The RW is already going to be very hard to keep a secret to viewers.  I do agree an Aerys scene would have been nails and I don't think it would have confused viewers.  A Rhaegar scene at the Trident would have also reminded viewers that the past is VERY important in the story and it wouldn't have been too confusing. I absolutely hated the Drogo scene not only because it was added but because it served no real purpose. Honestly it felt like something out of Twilight or some other romance/thriller movie and was a sellout.  A blue rose in the Wall also would have confused viewers but that isn't such a terrible thing, it confused readers the first time as well.  Isn't part of the point to get people THINKING about the show because it is so complex?

I was really outraged that they didn't have the "3's" mentioned because that would have required no real imagery.  Pyatt Pree could have said them.  Then as I thought about it I realized that the reason was they had written themselves into a corner with the dragon stealing.  In the book Dany goes to the HotU for knowledge but in the show she only goes for her dragons.  They didn't even have her drink shade of the evening which I thought was just lazy writing and it would have made the images more interesting and made non fantasy folks more comfortable because it would be a "is this real or a dream?" as a story.  However since the plot in the show was Dany just wanted her Dragons back and just as importantly the Warlocks only wanted to imprison Dany it made it pointless for them to give her any future prophecies because according to the Warlocks she was always just going to be imprisoned.

So in the end the problems with the HotU are "butterfly effect" from pulling the "dragon stealing" card.  They were written into a corner and had to make more changes to make up for the earlier changes.  My guess is that Quaithe will end up getting on the ship with Dany and have a larger role in prophecies to fill in the gaps.

[Independent George]

Lord of Cheese, on 05 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

TVHotU made it about... nothing really... she is just getting her dragons back. There was no point to any of what she saw or even why she saw anything at all. They showed her seeing winter coming and then found an excuse to get Jason Momoa (fan favouritism??) back into the series. Pointless.

It's not pointless; it's the subtext of the entire show. Winter is coming, and if it's merely the throne she wants, that's what she'll have: a frozen throne in an empty ruin. Drogo and Rhaego are what she's already lost in her quest - not just their lives, but, really, her own, too. It goes back to MMD's words - "What value does life have when everything else is taken away?", and to LC Mormont's - "When dead men walk and hunt us in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?".

She doesn't know about the coming Snowmageddon, but the viewers do, and she will (presumably) learn. That is the point to the HotU, and to the entire series as a whole.

Edited by Independent George, 05 June 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Ser Greguh]

I very much enjoyed the HOTU scene in the show precisely because it didn't attempt to put together a half-assed version of an unfilmable scene; the chaotic prophecy infodump is a trope that just works much better in prose than it ever could on the screen, and any vision that attempted to match the scene as described in the books would have never worked for any purpose other than to appease the purists.  Same with flashbacks; the logistical difficulties aside (casting actors, finding locations, getting the look right), they're the sort of thing that needs the right buildup in order to be effective, and as heavy as the show has been in exposition, we just don't have enough of the backstory to justify stranding a flashback in the middle of nowhere, as doing so would result in  90+% of the viewers being completely lost.

Yes, the history of the story is important, Rhaegar, Lyanna, Elia, Aerys, and others that were dead before the series ever began were important characters, but there's a reason why the word "Adaptation" comes from the root "To Adapt", which means to "change", and asking the audience to keep track of a host of characters .  I honestly think the vast majority of the people here have no freaking clue just how difficult the task is that D&D have here.

And I kind of liked the presentation of 3 possible futures: one with Dany in the throne room, but with it in ashes and snow falling from the sky; one with her at the Wall, seeming a little lost and alone, and one of her with Drogo, living out her life as a Khaleesi of the Dothraki.  They've introduced Qaithe, so they do have an outlet to bring any more prophecies / visions that they want in the future as they see fit, and have time for, but insofar as Dany's visions are important to her story, they haven't been important to her story yet (the only real tangible result thusfar has been her constant worrying about where her next "treason" will come from), so to me it's not important that they happen here.

[DirtyRobes]

sarah.jenice, on 05 June 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

I do think they could have at least said the dragon has three heads and included the statements that they say that didn't have visions - three fires, three treasons and three mounts.

I am hopeful that this will be rectified by having Quaithe tell Dany these things before they leave Qarth. It could work with her saying it and she has established herself as a more trustworthy person to receive prophecy from while the Undying were complete villains in the show.

Agreed. I had a very similar feeling when we got so little from the HotU. But instead of it happening before she leaves Qarth I expect that she will continue to appear throughout Dany's visions and thats how we'll get our 3 Mounts....
Still think the least they could have done is put a blue flower on the Wall!! Even if non-readers didn't know what it meant, its the Haunted House full of visions. They would have understood That!

[Morvran]

Lanza Rota, on 05 June 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

They would puzzle it out quickly enough. non-readers often watch shows closely and focus on details and what they could mean. Look at the way people analyze Breaking Bad, Lost etc.  People who have not read the books are watching this show just as closely. even if they didn't mean anything immediately, they would remember and discuss

Fanatics do this, but the majority of show-watchers don't do much beyond occasional show recaps.  I don't know any non-reader friends that watch GoT and then scour the net for information.  

There's also the issue of running into spoilers that viewers of Lost and such shows didn't have to deal with.  It would be very difficult to search for the meaning behind the blue flower in the wall or Rhaegar and Elia without accidentally spoiling so much more.

[gogorath]

Lord of Cheese, on 05 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

I thought she went into the HotU because Pyat Pree offered her wisdom and knowledge. So that is why she saw what she saw in the books when she went from room to room.

TVHotU made it about... nothing really... she is just getting her dragons back. There was no point to any of what she saw or even why she saw anything at all. They showed her seeing winter coming and then found an excuse to get Jason Momoa (fan favouritism??) back into the series. Pointless.

No, it's not about nothing.  It's not the same as the book, but Dany is making choices about what she wants in life -- much like Tyrion chooses the game over a life in Pentos or Jon will have to choose between the Watch and other things soon or Theon or any number of characters this season.  The visions try to convince her to stay in the dream with Drogo -- to forget that useless throne -- but she chooses elsewise.

It's more character based than the books.  I thought it was good but not as good as the books.  But it was not meaningless just because it didn't have the book meaning.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Harimad, on 05 June 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Did anyone else laugh when Dany said "my home is in Westeros" and Pyat said "it will be a long time before you go home" (that was not verbatim, I know) ?

In ADWD....still waiting....

Too many times I've had a non-reader ask when Dany is going to land on Westeros and I just have to stare and refuse to say anything. "I'll let you know when I find out" goes through my head

Yeah I did like the image a lot. Were there brazier type things attached to the pillars in the throne room? Given the whole "fire kills wights" thing I figured that was some kind of defence against the wights and the cold itself but then the roof was burnt off which kinda suggested dragon fire.

[Tytus]

gogorath, on 05 June 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

No, it's not about nothing.  It's not the same as the book, but Dany is making choices about what she wants in life -- much like Tyrion chooses the game over a life in Pentos or Jon will have to choose between the Watch and other things soon or Theon or any number of characters this season.  The visions try to convince her to stay in the dream with Drogo -- to forget that useless throne -- but she chooses elsewise.

It's more character based than the books.  I thought it was good but not as good as the books.  But it was not meaningless just because it didn't have the book meaning.

Right, this sequence serves a different purpose than it does in the books.
If that's true, and they're more like tricks set up by Pree to lure Dany into contentedness, then we should take the meanings of them with a grain of salt.