170 replies to this topic

[Alatariel]

I think that on next season we'll see The Night Watch saving Sam or something like that. The WW/Others will not let him escape so easily.

[ledlevee]

A Stark in Salem, on 05 June 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I can't see how that could in any way be true. The walkers have brutally and mercilessly killed and absorbed every living thing in their path. I just was reading again in Dance of Dragons the scene where Summer is tearing into a walkers dead arm that still tries to fight back until all the flesh has been torn off and only "remembers it was dead" once the bones have been sucked of their marrow.

There are no gray areas with the walkers/wights. They are pure evil; death incarnate. This is not just the perspective of men, but of the Green Seers, the children of the forest that are attending to Bran in his underground magical cave, and every Westerosi scholar since time began.

But I thought it was a wight's arm, not a walker's.  They're different I think.  The wights are the undead zombies and their arms are still animated after death, which is why people burn them.

Spoiler

Sam, on the other hand, was the first person in the series to kill
a white walker and he did it with dragonglass, which is the only way to kill
them that we know of.  White walkers don't seem to be undead.

When white walkers are dead, they're dead.  It seems like the wights are mindless followers of the white walkers, who have some form of control over them.  They're like icy sorcerers or something, or necromancers.  Neither is necessarily "evil".  The wights are mindless, not good or evil.  The white walkers, knowing GRRM, definitely have some form of agenda.  I don't think they kill for the sake of killing.  Perhaps they need to move south to survive for some reason.  In that case, is a race fighting for survival evil?  This is just an example of a motivation the white walkers may have.  They could be motivated by pretty much anything, since we don't really know yet, but I doubt GRRM would just create an evil race that kills for no reason.  There's more than meets the eye going on here.

Another note:  Targs and dragons both equal fire.  White walkers and Starks both equal ice.  Could there be some sort of connection here?

Edited by ledlevee, 05 June 2012 - 10:00 AM.

[Bride of Winter]

A Stark in Salem, on 05 June 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I can't see how that could in any way be true. The walkers have brutally and mercilessly killed and absorbed every living thing in their path. I just was reading again in Dance of Dragons the scene where Summer is tearing into a walkers dead arm that still tries to fight back until all the flesh has been torn off and only "remembers it was dead" once the bones have been sucked of their marrow.

There are no gray areas with the walkers/wights. They are pure evil; death incarnate. This is not just the perspective of men, but of the Green Seers, the children of the forest that are attending to Bran in his underground magical cave, and every Westerosi scholar since time began.

Those were wights. they're dead, of course they wont stop until they're literally torn apart. the White Walkers almost never appear and are purposely shrouded in mystery, and are sentient creatures. it's not impossible for people to believe there is something else going on with them. do you really think, in this series, the ending will be the good guys defeating the bad guys all of the worlds problems being solved? it's completely reasonable to believe there's a twist in store.

[Greywolf2375]

RoamingRonin, on 05 June 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

I didn't think they saw him. I thought the Other looked in his direction, sensing him but not actually seeing him.

Question still stands then, if the Other knows he is there - whether via sensing him or actually seeing - why is he letting him live?  Maybe it is a "Predator" like reason - if he is unarmed and not a threat then they will leave them alone.  that doesn't really follow with what we have seen, but maybe it is the reason.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Assuming that the critter on the horse was a WW rather than a wight, I suppose there may be an unknown reason an intelligent being might let Sam live, as opposed to a mindless wight who surely would have torn Sam to shreds.

That being said, I haven't rewatched the episode to check, but I have this vague recollection that there were some dark things on the ground scattered around Sam when he was behind that rock.  If those fragments turn out to be dragonglass, the scene makes sense.

[Morvran]

I'm assuming we'll find out next season.  Maybe they know something about the WW that we don't?  If not then it was a bad job on the part of the editors (not necessarily the writer).  The editing pretty clearly suggests that Sam hides, he looks to his right and the undead horse stops next to him, he looks up and sees the WW, the WW returns the gaze, Sam looks down in an "I'm screwed" manner,  and then the WW looks away, roars and order to keep moving forward, and on they shuffle.  The only thing I see to counter all of that is that when he hunkers down to hide and looks back at the approaching horde they're still pretty far away from him.

[Lady Storm]

Morvran, on 05 June 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

I'm assuming we'll find out next season.  Maybe they know something about the WW that we don't?  If not then it was a bad job on the part of the editors (not necessarily the writer).  The editing pretty clearly suggests that Sam hides, he looks to his right and the undead horse stops next to him, he looks up and sees the WW, the WW returns the gaze, Sam looks down in an "I'm screwed" manner,  and then the WW looks away, roars and order to keep moving forward, and on they shuffle.  The only thing I see to counter all of that is that when he hunkers down to hide and looks back at the approaching horde they're still pretty far away from him.

But look at the rocks in the last scene (the same ones Sam runs to).
All the WW are in front of them and the big-on-a-horse guy is standing next to Sam, not moving away from him. And the rest of the party is just approaching, not leaving him behind.

[Greywolf2375]

Former Lord of Winterfell, on 05 June 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Assuming that the critter on the horse was a WW rather than a wight, I suppose there may be an unknown reason an intelligent being might let Sam live, as opposed to a mindless wight who surely would have torn Sam to shreds.

That being said, I haven't rewatched the episode to check, but I have this vague recollection that there were some dark things on the ground scattered around Sam when he was behind that rock.  If those fragments turn out to be dragonglass, the scene makes sense.

Does it though?  It might make sense as to why the Other doesn't attack, but would not stop the wights - and if the Other(s) is/are afraid of dragonglass, wouldn't it make sense that they would send in the horde to take out/deal with the danger?

[Morvran]

Lady Storm, on 05 June 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

But look at the rocks in the last scene (the same ones Sam runs to).
All the WW are in front of them and the big-on-a-horse guy is standing next to Sam, not moving away from him. And the rest of the party is just approaching, not leaving him behind.

If this is the case, and I'd have to watch it again to see, then they were simply trying to put a scare into the viewer by having the WW look at the camera/viewer and they didn't catch the confusion it caused with the final edited shot.

[House Balstroko]

Lady Storm, on 05 June 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

But look at the rocks in the last scene (the same ones Sam runs to).
All the WW are in front of them and the big-on-a-horse guy is standing next to Sam, not moving away from him. And the rest of the party is just approaching, not leaving him behind.

That's true, in the end we do see the rock in front of the WW and approaching wights, which might be the group approaching Sam, but the part where they stare at each other contradicts that, since the Other is looking left, meaning Sam must be to his left.

[DirtyRobes]

Bride of Winter, on 05 June 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Yes! I'm the first one to nitpick things in this show, but I don't think this was an inconsistency on the part of the writers. for sentient humanoid creatures, I have a hard time believing the others are simply Evil-with-a-capital-E killing machines, without any other motives. especially in a series where the point is essentially that everything is shades of grey.

Not to mention, in the prologue the Other let that guy (sorry I can't remember his name) live once he submitted to them. I definitely think there's more to the others than we're being led to believe.

Couldn't agree more, there has to be more to them than pure evil, its just not GRRM. He's all about his Grey's.

Ferrum Aeternum, on 05 June 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

I agree.  As neat looking and scary as the scene was, it beggars belief that the WW and wights wouldn't make short work of Sam.  

I'm hoping the resolution next season is that Sam has a dragonglass dagger and uses it on the WW (as in the book), killing it and scaring off the rest.  I'll be very disappointed at any other conclusion, i.e. they "ignored" him.

I think that would be worse, Sam the Slayer scaring WW and Wights that they flee?
While I do hate the whole army scene because it really beggars belief that why a Wight army would just ignore him. I'm perfectly happy to accept that the WW did see Sam and that he simply saw him posing no threat and thus was no challenge for a WW.(was his sword even drawn?) Fine. BUT WHY THE FU*K would a horde of mindless dead, reanimated for the purpose of killing, zombies NOT want to kill Sam?
I expect beyond the wall season 3 will not start where this one left off. I expect the zombie horde to just past Sam, the fist battle(if we see it) will likely be from his chaotic stumbling POV. But maybe just the regroup after so Sam can get his nickname.

[Lady Storm]

Sam is to his left - (or at leas, the rock is) - but the WW doesn't actually move (that far) away from the rock and Sam.
But the perspective is messed up - it does not fit with Sam just looking to the right - he should be leaning farther away from the rock to actually see the tree-looking-horse-riding guy.

[Lannes]

I didn't like it all the way back in S1 Ep1 with Will and I liked it even less in the S2 finale with Sam.

[Kyle Baratheon]

Maybe because having wight Sam in their midst would seriously slow down the march?

[DirtyRobes]

Šedý vlk2375, on 05 June 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Does it though?  It might make sense as to why the Other doesn't attack, but would not stop the wights - and if the Other(s) is/are afraid of dragonglass, wouldn't it make sense that they would send in the horde to take out/deal with the danger?

Agreed. Its been too long since ive done a re-read but isnt it(somewhat) established that in one of the few scenes we have with WW's, that they Don't attack until someone is armed? Granted we've seen soo little of them. Isnt it in the prologue that whilst they arrive and rip that guy to sheds Together, that they actually duel alone and its not till he's cut down that they move in? I imagine their swords to be pretty much fatal to the slab, so he was done for Before they ripped him apart as a part of their party?

[DirtyRobes]

Stuntout, on 05 June 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Maybe because having wight Sam in their midst would seriously slow down the march?

HAR!! I didn't think of That! The WW was being pragmatic with his choice to not kill Sam.

Edited by DirtyRobes, 05 June 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Ser Robin Hill]

Stuntout, on 05 June 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Maybe because having wight Sam in their midst would seriously slow down the march?

How could they march any slower?  At the rate they were going, all the Watch could have walked to Dorne without having to worry.  It wouldn't be a real Zombie Apocalypse if someone wasn't left to tell horrifying stories about what he saw.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

Former Lord of Winterfell, on 05 June 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Assuming that the critter on the horse was a WW rather than a wight, I suppose there may be an unknown reason an intelligent being might let Sam live, as opposed to a mindless wight who surely would have torn Sam to shreds.

That being said, I haven't rewatched the episode to check, but I have this vague recollection that there were some dark things on the ground scattered around Sam when he was behind that rock.  If those fragments turn out to be dragonglass, the scene makes sense.

I've watched twice now, and think the black things on the ground are the pieces of pooh Dolorous Edd spilled from his container when he and Grenn ran off.  But presumably Sam does still have the dragon glass somewhere on his person?  Perhaps the WW senses that - or perhaps, as some have suggested, the camera angle was deceptive here, and he didn't really see Sam.

[Black Crow]

Šedý vlk2375, on 05 June 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

The comment has nothing to do with the books.  It has to do with an army walking past an enemy, just leaving him there.  This was not a single WW or small group, this is an army that gave appearances to be intent on waging a battle.  Why then would the leaders of that group leave an enemy in their midst?

Then again why bother with someone who isn't a threat.

There's an interesting parallel in Sam Watkins' memoir Co. Aytch when he's on picket duty just before the battle of Lookout Mountain. The Federal assault just rolls straight over him and he's left at his post, armed and bemused, prepared to surrender only none of the Federal soldiers passing by have the time or inclination to stop and take him prisoner so that in the end when things quieten down he simply walks off.

[Black Crow]

ledlevee, on 05 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Another note:  Targs and dragons both equal fire.  White walkers and Starks both equal ice.  Could there be some sort of connection here?

Yes