170 replies to this topic

[Lord Over]

The Others are the Good guys *Gets shot for using LOST joke again*

But I think it's probably because they're going to portray the Others as a 'noble' sort of villain. They resort to magic and bio-warfare, but they won't kill you one-on-one unless you attack them. I don't know, I'm as confused as you are.

Still, an unintentionally hilarious scene!

[Jojosh]

Maybe it didn't kill him for the same reason the whitewalkers in the pilot let the other nights watchmen go

[Sharpes]

Clearly they were saving Sam for sunday roast. Nice bit of crackling, frost potatoes and iced carrots, served with a drop of polar wine. It's like a walk-by happy meal for them.

"Looks like meat is back on the menu boys!..."

Thought the scene lacked the suspense in the books, with them approaching from the trees, and then the desperation of getting back to Craster's while the NW form a ring of sentries with fire. As others have pointed out, having someone to spread rumours about the White Walkers return and reduce morale (though that idea didn't quite work last time as a PR stunt with Will as he got his bean cut off by Lord Eddard-I'll-Tell-The-Queen!). Fear cuts deeper than swords and all that.

Edited by Sharpes, 05 June 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[RoamingRonin]

Šedý vlk2375, on 05 June 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Question still stands then, if the Other knows he is there - whether via sensing him or actually seeing - why is he letting him live?  Maybe it is a "Predator" like reason - if he is unarmed and not a threat then they will leave them alone.  that doesn't really follow with what we have seen, but maybe it is the reason.

The White Walker didn't seem like he knew there was a living thing here. It just seemed like he heard a noise, looked, and decided it wasn't worth checking. I just never got the impression the WW knew for a fact that there was someone/something hiding behind the rock.

[Tywin's bastard]

The simple answer is that you asked the wrong question. The logical question is "why didn't the white walker kill Sam right away?". The army is marching forward but the WW sits still on his horse so there's nothing whatsoever saying that he won't try to kill him. I can imagine that while the wight army assaults the Fist, the white walker tries to kill Sam. The Others kept their distance from the battle in the book so they'll probably stay behind here as well.

So wait until things have actually played out.

[K.C.]

The posts about camera angles didn't make sense to me at all. I just re-watched the scene to be triple sure. We see Sam with wights in the background in one shot and the Other/WW and Sam looking straight at one another. We also see this:

[img]http://ewtvrecaps.fi...walker.jpg[/img]
To me he's cocking his eyebrow (or as close to it as he can) and saying, "Da fuck is this?"

[SerMixalot]

Guys, clearly the WW was asking Sam where Ros was.

[SerMixalot]

My bet is that next season starts off with the NW attacking out of the fog to rescue Sam, sam kills and Other and the NW is broken and retreats.

[Lady Storm]

Savarin, on 05 June 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

The posts about camera angles didn't make sense to me at all. I just re-watched the scene to be triple sure. We see Sam with wights in the background in one shot and the Other/WW and Sam looking straight at one another.

Yes, but this is what the scene ends with. The circled things are rocks and these are the only two rocks visible at the scene until it ends. The big-tree-on-a-horse WW didn't really move more than like 15 cm - the horse doesn't even make 2 full steps. So the one next to him is Sam:

[img]http://postimage.org...3q3cxohsz/[/img]

Edited by Lady Storm, 05 June 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[gogorath]

Tadco26, on 05 June 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

They don't exactly let Gared go free.  He was guarding the horses and may or may not have even seen what happened.  As far as I can recall they never mention that he even saw what happened to Will and Waymar Royce, and I could not find any mention of Gared saying he saw the Others in the books.  Gared escaping on horseback is not the same as Gared being let go.

It's been a while since I read it.  Does he run because he's seen something?  Is it merely just the aftermath?  Why does he desert?

[A Stark in Salem]

All sorts of interesting theories here, but mostly I think the ones that simply say: it was a poorly thought out and executed scene hit closest to the mark.

But what really surprises me is so many readers idea the GRRM has no actual positions on evil. That just does not bear out on actual examination. Granted, there are several characters who start out bad, misguided or basically arse-holes who gradually redeem themselves. We could have Jamie as exhibit no.1, but certainly there are others. And there are a number of characters that are initially seen as basically good who then fall very far from grace, most obviously Theon. Many of the rest sort of are in between. Many remain more or less in the camp they start out in. Tyrion, most of Starks, Dany and others all try to do the right thing, though at times are forced to do the "hard" thing which isn't always nice. Plenty of others like Cersie, Joffery and others seem to want nothing but more power, and actually enjoy the destruction they wreak to get it. Plenty of them die or have a long fall, oft times because of arrogance and blind ambition, but that doesn't change how bad they were when they could be.

But... then we have a whole cast that is never portrayed as anything other than relentlessly, completely, utter cruel and sadistic. In short: they are Evil, regardless of what "motivations" they might justify their actions. The Mountain is commits nothing short of genocide in this series alone! He's like one of those Nazi SS commanders who goes out of his way to kill as many in his path, and if an opportunity for extra and pain and cruelty is there, he takes it every time. Ditto most of the above for all the Bloody Mummer and the Brave Companions. And lastly: Ramsey Snow, who is practically a caricature of an evil sadist. No grey in there guys: he's evil, and no amount of excuses can amend it.

How about all the slavers over the sea. GRRM goes to great lengths to show show twisted and despicable they are. Nailing up 157 live kids to die awful slow deaths on wooden posts for Dany to see as she heads to their city? Where is the grey in that I may ask?

Just because creatures or beings are sentient and have motivations does not make them not evil. The only things that might not be evil are animals and events that have no free will. But even animals can be made to be cruel and violent beyond their normal capacity. At that point they become agents of the evil intentions of their masters.

All the worst evils committed by humans from the dawn of history all the way to the streets of Syria today usually had some sort of motivation. Generally absolute power, but as often to inflict pain and suffering for very little reason. Motivation or not, reasons or not, there are a vast and unfortunate realm of actions that can never be anything other than black. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either in denial or is afraid to really look closely at how common and pervasive it is in the world, even today. If it was your mother being slowly tortured by The Tickler, and then you best friend, and then your brother and everyone else you knew, the idea of "it's all grey" would very quickly evaporate.

I have not read one thing that could exempt the White Walkers from this category. They may have some motivations for their actions, but from what;'s on the page it falls pretty well into the "take over the world by complete and utter death and destruction category." Where is the grey in that? Willful death and destruction are evil regardless of any possible motivations.

[Lord Hjorth]

My two cents.

The White Walkers are creatures of Winter. They don't kill the ones that Winter already will take. Sam is a craven and a dumbass when it comes to surviving.
If his spirit is already defeated, Winter has already claimed him. He'll die from exposure on his own.

[Honey Badger]

Maybe they'll capture him and the inevitable escape will happen later.  Still a stupid scene.

[SerMixalot]

THat is an interesting argument you make with much to compel it.  However, I would argue that as far as Westeros goes (Essos is different and I will get to that in a moment), even the characters you describe as evil have compelling motives and reasons.  I think there is much argument to be made that the mountain, ramsey snow and quohorn (the evil scientist) are certifiably insane, psychopaths.  We are left with the arguing the nature of evil-is it a seperate thing unto itself (ie the others as being a pure evil thing) or is evil the perception of an act (killings may be evil or good depending on where you stand), the latter argument would support the Others as not being a purely evil phenomenom.  I would say the jury is still out on GRRMs perspective as he repeatedly reconceives the narrative on stories from different perspectives.

WRT Essos I would argue that much of that oortion of the world is far less dimensionalized in that the characters, esp. the villians are much less 3 dimensional, they are more traditional fantasy villians.

[Hear Us Roar]

Maybe they could nots see him since he was not moving.

[Lord Godric]

I just imagined that the Other hadn't attacked Sam *yet.*  I suspect that when we start the next season we'll see Sam killing the Other with the obsidian then escaping from the Wights (they weren't exactly moving fast).

[SerMixalot]

neither is sam!

[Stanmore]

Bride of Winter, on 05 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I hope so! I have a really hard time believing that the destructive fire force (the dragons) will save the world by killing the "destructive" ice force (others). I'm sure dragons have killed just as many people as the WW, if not more. plus I highly doubt the Starks will hop to the fire side to destroy ice, when they pretty much embody everything about winter and the north.

But what's the big killer in Westeros? What do the Stark words warn about?  Hint: it's not Summer...

[Lord Godric]

SerMixalot, on 05 June 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

THat is an interesting argument you make with much to compel it.  However, I would argue that as far as Westeros goes (Essos is different and I will get to that in a moment), even the characters you describe as evil have compelling motives and reasons.  I think there is much argument to be made that the mountain, ramsey snow and quohorn (the evil scientist) are certifiably insane, psychopaths.  We are left with the arguing the nature of evil-is it a seperate thing unto itself (ie the others as being a pure evil thing) or is evil the perception of an act (killings may be evil or good depending on where you stand), the latter argument would support the Others as not being a purely evil phenomenom.  I would say the jury is still out on GRRMs perspective as he repeatedly reconceives the narrative on stories from different perspectives.

WRT Essos I would argue that much of that oortion of the world is far less dimensionalized in that the characters, esp. the villians are much less 3 dimensional, they are more traditional fantasy villians.

I would certainly be disappointed with Martin if he just decided to make the Others a completely evil race because it is so unlike the rest of his world.  I like to imagine that the Others have legitimate reasons for descending south and not just because they are out to destroy the world.   All of Martin's human characters have reasons for "being evil" so I would like to think the same is true of the Others.

[Lord Godric]

SerMixalot, on 05 June 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

neither is sam!

touche!