42 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

RoamingRonin, on 05 June 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

I pity Lollys Stokeworth. She seems like Sansa if Sansa never learned from her lessons. Both were kept at King's Landing, both were regarded as stupid; Sansa escaped being harmed during the riots only because someone felt she was worth saving. Lolly's was forgotten by everyone but her mother. Lolly's seems to have a decent life now but did she learn anything like Sansa? I doubt it.

Poor Lollys. Her arc reallly does seem to be the actualisation of all the things that threatened Sansa - being raped and ending up pregant by the mob and (seemingly) forever trapped in a loveless marriage with a man who's had a hand in destroying your family. When Tywin presented Tyrion with the offer of marriage to Sansa, Lollys was positioned as the worst possible alternative, whilst Sansa took the place as the "best." But I do think that Martin has tried to show that both girls aren't so different, at least not with regard to the fates they each suffered. Lollys naturally struggles to articulate her suffering and oppression, but Sansa's marriage to Tyrion also rendered her virtually speechless, and she descended into a dark depression during this time.The disregard of women's personal happiness, and their essential vulnerability in a patriarchal, feudal society is made even more apparent by Lollys' situation because of her mental unfitness. She has no refuge she can seek, and we can only begin to fathom how traumatised and terrified she must be.  

I would dispute the claim that Lollys has a decent life now. She had a decent life when she had her mother and sister around to protect her. Now she's left at the mercy of Bronn, who seems to have no compunction in taking advantage of his wife and using her as a tool to advance his position in society.

[Valkyrja]

brashcandy, on 05 June 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

I would dispute the claim that Lollys has a decent life now. She had a decent life when she had her mother and sister around to protect her. Now she's left at the mercy of Bronn, who seems to have no compunction in taking advantage of his wife and using her as a tool to advance his position in society.

I agree. I find it very hard to like Bronn as a character, especially after this.

[YouKnowNothing]

This is the only thread where I feel like I can say that even though I loveLOVE Bronn I would truly love to see Lollys be the one to kill him. I thought she seemed like such a sweet girl and I think people pity her because she's awkward and timid. For her to kill the man who took over her home would be really nice.

[Winter's Knight]

YouKnowNothing, on 05 June 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

This is the only thread where I feel like I can say that even though I loveLOVE Bronn I would truly love to see Lollys be the one to kill him. I thought she seemed like such a sweet girl and I think people pity her because she's awkward and timid. For her to kill the man who took over her home would be really nice.

This would be perfection.

[Dr. Pepper]

I don't have any appreciation or pity for Selyse.  Plenty of characters are ugly and/or trapped in loveless marriages and I don't pity them just for being cursed with an ugly face or a poor spouse.  I don't appreciate her just for bringing a religious nut into the fold.  There isn't any evidence that Melisandre has done anything to help Stannis' campaign.  She seems more like she's hurt it.

I do have pity for Lollys.  I am sad for the way people treat her due to her being slow-minded and for the rapes she experienced in the King's Landing riots.  I'm pleased that her mother proved that she loved her very much.

I'm of the minority that does not believe Bronn is so terribly bad for her.  There's no evidence that he was doing anything to harm her or her family until Balman, Falyse's husband, threatened him and challenged him to a duel and then revealed that Cersei wanted him dead.  If Balman or Cersei had been successful with killing Bronn, Lollys would be back where she started....alone, with a bastard child, and unprotected.  Balman was always described as greedy and I certainly don't believe that he would have taken on the care of Lollys and her bastard out of the kindness of his heart when Lollys and bastard Tyrion could threaten the claim to House Stokeworth since he and Falyse had no other heirs.

[David Selig]

Dr. Pepper, on 05 June 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I don't have any appreciation or pity for Selyse.  Plenty of characters are ugly and/or trapped in loveless marriages and I don't pity them just for being cursed with an ugly face or a poor spouse.  I don't appreciate her just for bringing a religious nut into the fold.  There isn't any evidence that Melisandre has done anything to help Stannis' campaign.  She seems more like she's hurt it.

What? If not for the Shadow baby, Stannis's small army would've been destroyed at Storm's End, his claim for the crown would've been over and he'd probably have been dead.

[Dr. Pepper]

David Selig, on 05 June 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

What? If not for the Shadow baby, Stannis's small army would've been destroyed at Storm's End, his claim for the crown would've been over and he'd probably have been dead.

We can't know that.  We can't know if Stannis would have gone to try to take Storm's End first if Melisandre hadn't told him that if he didn't then she saw Renly fighting and winning at the Blackwater (which is what happened anyway when Garlan donned his armor).  The Shadowbaby did nothing but kill his brother and move Renly's large base of support over to the Lannisters.

In any case, his claim for the crown was pretty much over when he was defeated at Blackwater.  It wasn't Melisandre's assistance that got him back in the game.  It was Davos' assistance when he brought him information about pleas for help from the wall.

[salt]

You'd have to be a real bastard not to feed bad for Lollys, or really any mentally handicapped person living in a society that has no understanding of the condition.

As for Selyse, I never thought she was terrible- unpleasant, closed-minded, and a fanatic, but I don't see her as a detestable person, especially when you consider many of the character's we've met over the course of the books. I sort of admire the audacious pride that she and Stannis seem to share, they both carry themselves as King and Queen even if their kingdom currently amounts to a ruined castle.  She seems to be a fairly distant mother, but I like that she doesn't appear to treat Shireen differently because of the greyscale.

However, I don't agree that she is particularly deserving of pity.  Yes, she has a cold husband (although she's seems pretty cold herself), but this is Westeros we're talking about.  Think of all the poverty, pain, and violence we've witnessed.  Selyse has lived her whole life as nobility in the top 1% of Westerosi society.  She's never gone hungry or without shelter for a day in her life, and with all that we've seen its hard to feel that bad for fairly youthful, healthy, unharmed nobles.

Edited by salt, 06 June 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[jarl the climber]

I agree with Dr. Pepper about Bronn and Lollys. There were some things that happened with the naming of the child and Taneas accident that Balman might have played a role in as opposed to Bronn. Balman was fond of expensive wine and young virgin girls. He had Falsye ask Cersei ab about giving them Rosby when Giles died as well as conspiring to murder Bronn, whos marriage to Lollys Cersei had arranged in order to convince him not to champion Tyrion. I don't think Bronn had any motive to kill Tanea, it was either an accident or Balman was responsible. The only person Bronn would want to kill would be Falsye but Cersei did that.

[Darth Arya]

A haughty,ugly Queen with facial hair and a halfwit, not really feeling the appreciation .

[LordDolorousEdd]

bron did make lollies lady of a house which she was second born too.... he is just such a nice guy!

[crispygurl]

I find it strange that Bronn is probably the only one to treat her nicely post-rape. I don't even know if I can call it nice, I guess it's just not as cruel as everyone else?

I mean, he married her and is probably going to raise her kid. When even Tyrion is appalled by that he's just like "whatever"

I remember the conversation has Tyrion talking about the baby in her belly, and Bronn's like "I don't care. I'll put another one in her."

[jarl the climber]

LordDolorousEdd, on 05 June 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

bron did make lollies lady of a house which she was second born too.... he is just such a nice guy!

Actually Cersei did this by letting Qyburn experiment on Falsye. As far as we know Bronn only killed Balman in a fair duel, and his only claim was through marriage.

Edited by jarl the climber, 05 June 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[Fylimar]

I feel bad for poor Lollys too. The  way people just ignored her fate and her trauma and laugh about it, made me sick. But I think, that GRRM wants to show through Lollys (and through Shireens and Briennes  - they both have to face a lot of laugther and cruel jokes, too) story, what a shallow society the highborns of Westeros are: the appearance is more important, than what lays beyond - most knights of Westeros don't derserve that title, they are nice looking men with non of the virtues of a knight. Brienne has all the virtues, but she can never become a knight and is seen as a monster. The fair maidens are mostly not so fair beyond their looks, but Lollys and Shireen, who are not very good looking, are very kind and nice people.
Through characters like Lollys or Shireen, some of the other main and recurring characters are seen in a different light: After Shaes heartless comment about Lollys gang rape, I really started to dislike her.

About Bronn: I don't think, that he is intentionally cruel to Lollys, but I doubt, that he has the sensitiveness for dealing with her trauma.

[AryaMiles]

What happened to Lolly was a shock to me as I liked her and her trusting nature. I hoped that the worst thing GRRM could do to her would be marry her to someone like Bronn. I really do hope she gets out of her marriage with Bron who is not on my list of favorite people but I do have respect for him. He is a badass mercenary but that doesn't make me like him.

As far as Selyse goes I think too that she is not the good and ignorant person we all believe she is. It has crossed my mind that she lets all these things happen with her husband because she has some ulterior motive we don't know of.

[peash]

I certainly feel alot more pity for lollys than selyse. They were both dealt a lousy hand, in fact, Lollys got a worse hand than Sleyse, Selyse didn't get gang-raped or impregnated after all. Despite this Lollys is seemingly a sweet girl (I say seemingly because Tyrion, Cersei, and Littlefinger have no idea of the seething rage that seems to linger just below Sansa's sweet facade) whereas Selyse is a total bitch, with seemingly no redeeming qualities or strategic sense (as exemplefied by her interactions with Jon). It's alot easier for me to pity a person with redeeming qualities than a person without them.

As for the wisdom of getting Mel and Stannis together, I don't think it was a good idea. The coversations at Dragonstone always struck me as: Stannis wants to do something stupid (e.g. attack Renly) Davos gets close to talking Stannis out of it, then Mel pipes up aboutt the Lord of Light etc and Stannis sides with her. If Mel hadn't been there I think Davos and Cressen (who would've been alive) could have talked him out of many of his opening foolish moves. Its worth noting that when Incompetent!Florent (as opposed to Trecherous!Florent who tried to surrender to the Lannisters and Prudent!Florent who is in hiding in Old Town) wants to burn Claw Island, he threatens Davos in an attempt to get him to go along with it, which indicates that Stannis follows the advice of Davos a fair bit.

[romantic]

My worst problem with thse two characters is how cruelly they are portrayed, as are other older/less attractive women in the series. At least Tyrion is made quite sympathetic and likable for much of his time and Sandor starts a redemptive arc. Whereas a lot of the women become caricatures during the story (Cersei, Cat/unCat) or seem silly and shallow throughout (Lysa).

I  also hope Bronn treats Lollys and her baby decentfully and, as of yet, we've not seen him be mean or cruel to women or children. Was it Bronn that told Tryion that he'd never let anyone treat his wife like Tywin (and Tyrion) treated Tysha?

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

This is a good thread. "Westeros" is a pretty brutal place and these two women are in very hard positions in it. Lollys has my undying sympathy and I hope she sees some justice in her life. I know "justice" is rare/different/harsh/unequal/non-existent in Westeros but if anyone deserves some life validation, she does. Selyse is a complex character and the Jon chapters from ADWD gave her a lot more depth which I enjoyed reading; Melisandre (concurrently) comments on the need to craft/maintain the illusions of power--Selyse isn't perfect, but she acts like a queen should act. That being said [sincerely], the jokes about her moustache were hilarious and I laugh every time I read them.

[Valkyrja]

Welcome to the boards! Interesting user name, and interesting choice for first post. Thanks for sticking up for these ladies (mustaches and all).

[Woman of War]

I'd include Penny into this debate.
We don't know anything about Lollys, we do not know how "lackwit" she really is, if she isn't only very shy and a little slow but could be a happy young woman if someone appreciated her - and here is the crackpot I am always hoping for - she may be much more aware of what is happening aroung her than everyone believes. I would love her to play a a very unexpected role, well, not exactly killing Bronn, he even might treat her fairly well.
I have no sympathies whatsoever for Selyse, she is a fundamentalist religious fanatic, I seriously dislike those people, a nice mixture of Sarah Palin and Osama Bin Laden, thank you very much. Though if the loveless treatment by her husband and having been forced into this marriage might have a part here we don't know. And the jokes about her moustache are just cheap, made by book characters or by Martin himself.
Shireen is a nice girl and I hope she will achieve something in the story and not end as doom bringing greyscale to the North, but Martin decides. There is another lonely princess, only she doesn't get much fan love and and not many  threads of her own - well, she doesn't invite much fandom, she is not beautiful.
And there is Penny. I actually like her character and I want her to find her own way, to discover that she does not really need her new big brother Tyrion, that she can have a good life by her own efforts. She has actually proved that she has some courage and initiative and needs not depend upon some white knight to save her for the rest of her life. I mean, she isn't a spoiled princess but a streetwise common girl. I only hope Martin does not have to sacrifice her for the sake of the story.
I want all those bastards, cripples and broken things to do the unexpected.

Edited by Woman of War, 07 June 2012 - 01:40 AM.