Sansa's hairnet

[janedl]

I'm trying to figure out exactly how the death of Joffrey was accomplished. Sansa was given the hairnet by Ser Dontos, who was working for Littlefinger. Therefore it seems that Littlefinger was behind the poison "amethyst." If so, how did the Queen of Thorns, who fiddled with the hairnet, was near Joffrey's chalice and presumably poisoned him to prevent him abusing Margaery, know about it?

Was she working with Littlefinger? Why did Littlefinger want Joffrey dead? I have a feeling I'm missing something here.

[Lyanna Stark]

You should perhaps have posted this in the "Sansa" threads, but I'll try and give a coherent reply. :)

1. Yes, the Queen of Thorns (QoT) and Littlefinger (LF) plotted together to kill Joffrey.

2. Reasons: QoT didn't want a sociopath marrying her granddaughter and LF wanted a diversion to get Sansa out of Kings Landing (more on LF's motives later).

3.QoT fiddled with the hairnet and took an amethyst, that we know.

4. Since QoT did not want to risk Margaery's life, it's likely Margaery was in on it and put the stone in the chalice herself. That is the only way they could be sure Margaery would not be poisoned.

5. LF went out of his way to place the blame on Tyrion since LF wanted to whisk Sansa out of Kings Landing and have Tyrion executed for regicide. A side effect of this is that Sansa is now implicated in regicide too and is totally dependant on LF for survival, which he is exploiting best he can.

6. No 5 is also why LF blocked the Tyrell plot of marrying Sansa to Willas.

[Grail King]

You should perhaps have posted this in the "Sansa" threads, but I'll try and give a coherent reply. :)

1. Yes, the Queen of Thorns (QoT) and Littlefinger (LF) plotted together to kill Joffrey.

2. Reasons: QoT didn't want a sociopath marrying her granddaughter and LF wanted a diversion to get Sansa out of Kings Landing (more on LF's motives later).

3.QoT fiddled with the hairnet and took an amethyst, that we know.

4. Since QoT did not want to risk Margaery's life, it's likely Margaery was in on it and put the stone in the chalice herself. That is the only way they could be sure Margaery would not be poisoned.

5. LF went out of his way to place the blame on Tyrion since LF wanted to whisk Sansa out of Kings Landing and have Tyrion executed for regicide. A side effect of this is that Sansa is now implicated in regicide too and is totally dependant on LF for survival, which he is exploiting best he can.

6. No 5 is also why LF blocked the Tyrell plot of marrying Sansa to Willas.

Along with he wants Sansa for himself ( I think this weeks epi. we were given a hint )

There is also the possibility it was Garlan

[Jolene Brown]

I just do not get why people think it might have been Garlan. Please explain.

[winterdirewolf]

Who the heck is Garlan? I totally missed that.

[Lyanna Stark]

I just do not get why people think it might have been Garlan. Please explain.

Garlan Tyrell and his wife sit next to Tyrion during the wedding and is very nice and polite both to him and Sansa, which just may be an underhanded way of getting them to relax around him so he could get close to the chalice.

For those who have missed who Garlan is, he is Loras' older brother. "Garlan the Gallant".

[The hairy bear]

There is also the possibility it was Garlan

We know that Olenna fixed Sansa's hairnet and, as Lyanna Stark says, Margaery was likely in in order to avoid being poisoned.

There's the possibility that Garlan was in too, but that doesn't take away that Olenna and Margarery were the main culprits. And I tend to think that Olenna's general disdain for the males in his family and Garlan's reputation as being gallant and nice make a case for the two women being the only conspirators.

[Jolene Brown]

Garlan Tyrell and his wife sit next to Tyrion during the wedding and is very nice and polite both to him and Sansa, which just may be an underhanded way of getting them to relax around him so he could get close to the chalice.

For those who have missed who Garlan is, he is Loras' older brother. "Garlan the Gallant".

That's it? I think he's just a nice dude.

[Ser Robert]

Isnt Garlan Renlys shade in the battle of Blackwater?

[RandallFlagg]

The Tyrells brought a fool with them to King's Landing. Butterbumps was his name. I was re-reading the Sansa chapter in ASOS where she has dinner with all the Tyrell women. At one point Butterbumps does a pretty good sleight of hand trick where he pretends to eat a chick whole. The chick ends up crawling down one of the lady's arms to all their delight. Not bad. I don't recall if Butterbumps was at Joff's wedding or not. If so, the Tyrell's could have used him to slip the poison into the chalice. Possible? Not possible?

[rocksniffer]

The Tyrells brought a fool with them to King's Landing. Butterbumps was his name. I was re-reading the Sansa chapter in ASOS where she has dinner with all the Tyrell women. At one point Butterbumps does a pretty good sleight of hand trick where he pretends to eat a chick whole. The chick ends up crawling down one of the lady's arms to all their delight. Not bad. I don't recall if Butterbumps was at Joff's wedding or not. If so, the Tyrell's could have used him to slip the poison into the chalice. Possible? Not possible?

yes he was at the wedding.

[Blisscraft]

Isnt Garlan Renlys shade in the battle of Blackwater?

Yes, Garlan was Renly's shade.

[chrisdaw]

Or it was the pie meant for Tyrion that was poisoned, perhaps the second time seomeone has tried to get rid of him. Or it really was Oberyn.

[darndes]

I always viewed it this way: The Tyrell's poisoned Joffrey so Margeary could marry Tommen (the one who wasn't sadistic) and become queen. They let Tyrion take the blame thinking he would be executed and Sansa would be free to marry Willas as planned. So Margeary is queen of the seven kingdoms AND the Tyrell's have Winterfell as well.

Somewhere along the way, Littlefinger got involved and mucked it all up to his advantage, as ONLY Littlefinger can do :-)

[Lord Manwoody]

Here's my assumption, based on the timeline in the books...

Littlefinger was the engineer of this all.

I think the beginning was in Tyrion 5 (of Clash) - it is this chapter where Tyrion asks LF to negotiate with Lysa Arryn and promises him the title of Lord of the Trident.

The very next chapter in the book is Sansa, and it is this chapter where she first meets Ser Dontos in the Godswood. In this chapter he tells Sansa that no one sent him, but he came on his own. Later in the book, he says he has spoken to a certain man who is a friend to him and to Sansa who will help them escape. It is my opinion that he was lying the first time. I believe Ser Dontos was sent by LF soon after his conversation with Tyrion in the previous chapter. At this point, I don't think he had the whole picture, but he knew things were in motion and coming together that would allow him to formulate a plan. Thus, he enlisted Ser Dontos to help and made his first contact with Sansa.

Some chapters later (roughly 250 pages), in another Tyrion chapter (not sure which #), Littlefinger volunteers to travel to Bitterbridge to negotiate with the Tyrells after the council learns of Renly's death. We have no detailed account of the negotiations, so we are left to speculate.

In Sansa's final Clash chapter, after she has been released from Joffrey and LF granted Harrenhal and the title of Lord of the Trident at the court session, she meets Ser Dontos again. This time he tells her when the escape will take place and he gives her the hairnet and tells her that it is magic she holds, vengeance and justice for her father. It is obvious at this point that the plan is in place and the details worked out.

It seems to me that LF had the idea and made contact, then the trip to Bitterbridge presented the opportunity. Whether the Tyrells already wanted Joffrey dead, or whether he had to "nudge" them in that direction is unknown, but either way, that was part of the deal, IMO. I believe he and the grandmother made the deal and worked out the details of the plan (the hairnet). When he returned with the conquering army, he gave the hairnet to Ser Dontos to give to Sansa. At the feast, the grandmother removed the poison and somebody from the Tyrell camp put it in the cup. One thing I've gathered, and a point worth noting, is that the Tyrells are a close-knit family. I've read the suggestions and I think both Margaery and Butterbumps are reasonable possibilities, especially based their emphasis on family. That tells me that they should be able to trust each other.

That's my two cents on the issue.

[chrisdaw]

We know that Olenna fixed Sansa's hairnet and, as Lyanna Stark says, Margaery was likely in in order to avoid being poisoned.

But if Margaery wasn't in on it the implications of her drinking from the same cup become completely different, the chalice would throw the plan into flux. It would be just like her oaf of a son to screw things up.

[winterbird]

My money would be on Margery placing the actual poison into the chalice because 1) she would know when it was put in and know not to drink after 2) the QoT is often talking about how useless the men were. It seems to me that she thinks the men are for fighting and the women are left for more subtle tasks. 3) How many times have they said in the book "poison is a woman's weapon." There seems to be a great deal of fricton between the Tyrell and Martell men and the Tyrell men are always scoffing at the poison used in Dorne calling it a "women's weapon" so I think it's more likely that the men weren't involved in the poison plot.

[Lady Lea]

My question is, what happened to the hairnet after the wedding? Did Sansa throw it away? (this may be explained in the books but I can't remember)

[A Stark in Winterfell]

My question is, what happened to the hairnet after the wedding? Did Sansa throw it away? (this may be explained in the books but I can't remember)

If I recall correctly, she put the hairnet in the pocket of her cloak after she escaped the Red Keep.

[chrisdaw]

She'll probably wear it the day she kills LF.