Sansa's hairnet

[Lady Lea]

So she still has it?

[A Stark in Winterfell]

So she still has it?

I guess so. I think she'll use the hairnet to poison LF. The creepy old lady from High Heart relates the prophecy of Sansa killing a savage giant to the purple wedding. And something Lysa said to her in the Fingers about poison being a woman's weapon and that a woman's biggest failure is not protecting their children and Sansa becomes a mother figure to Sweetrobin later on.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

What I don't get is why the hair net! QoT did not need someone to smugly in the poison. No one was given the pat down on the way in; a vile up the sleeve would have done just as well. Without it siting up on top of Sansa head for how many weeks.

Really was it just to make her feel guilty

[A wilding]

I agree. For me, the only purpose of the hairnet was to implicate Sansa. If it gets pointed out by anyone, it will appear to everyone that she was obviously the murderer.

Which leads to the question: why she was allowed to escape?

One possible answer is that she was only a fallback scapegoat, one who could have been blamed if the plan had gone wrong. But it seems more likely to me that the Tyrells thought she was going to take the blame, but that LF double crossed them by arranging for her escape. Still, with Tyrion getting the blame instead, the Tyrells were probably not too upset.

[Breadfoot91st]

Or it was the pie meant for Tyrion that was poisoned, perhaps the second time seomeone has tried to get rid of him. Or it really was Oberyn.

think this is very plausable. it could also have been the pie that was poisened and intended for tyrion. the queen of thorns has been trying to get sansa to high garden since they had met. with tyrion gone the tyrells could marry sansa to thier crippled son and move thier claim on witerfell and the north. the queen of thorns asks sansa at the wedding as well to go to high garden.

[A wilding]

think this is very plausable. it could also have been the pie that was poisened and intended for tyrion. the queen of thorns has been trying to get sansa to high garden since they had met. with tyrion gone the tyrells could marry sansa to thier crippled son and move thier claim on witerfell and the north. the queen of thorns asks sansa at the wedding as well to go to high garden.

So the Queen of Thorns was quite happy for her granddaughter to marry a sociopath who would certainly mistreat her.

Yet at the wedding, she murders someone completely different, for the sole purpose of possibly getting the chance to marry off Sansa to Willas, with some chance of then eventually being able to make a claim for Winterfell.

Yet at the same time she puts Sansa at considerable risk of getting the blame for the murder, which would ruin the whole point of her scheme!

Personally I would not call that at all plausible.

[ghost of Harrenhall]

The only reason for QoT to try to get rid of Sansa, is to stop her from telling anyone about their little talk with the bear and the maiden fair. QoT should know that it is unlikely that Sansa will blab, at this point. The Tyrells may still want to marry off Sansa and this would mean shortening a dwarf by a head, but they could lose their bride just as easily. They are not as slimy as LF.

From the Tyrell point of view the death of Joffrey, should be made to seen as an act from Oberyn Martell not Tyrion

I am half a mind to believe that FL had nothing to do with Joffrey murder. He just found out about the Tyrell plan, and decided to capitalize; with a not so poisoned Hairnet, and a pair of small coins. but who knows :dunno:

[Bannerman918]

Everybody talks about the hairnet and the amethysts, and with good reason since Littlefinger tells Sansa about it later on. I kind of had the feeling that the pie was poisoned and meant for Tyrion. It was Tyrion's serving of pie that Joffrey was eating when he started choking, talking about how spicy it was. I know that doesn't make sense with LF pretty much confessing to poisoning Joffrey. I bet he wouldn't admit if he meant to poison Tyrion, he'd just go along with it. Either way makes him look pretty good in Sansa's eyes. Has anybody else thought about it this way?

[SeanF]

The Queen of Thorns and Margaery fully intended to implicate Sansa in the murder , as much as Tyrion. Hence, the use to which they put Sansa's hairnet. Sansa served no useful purpose to them anymore. They had no personal animus towards her - she was just a useful scapegoat.

Given what Sansa has been through, for them to befriend and betray her like that was a really despicable thing to do.

[Castellan]

Garlan Tyrell and his wife sit next to Tyrion during the wedding and is very nice and polite both to him and Sansa, which just may be an underhanded way of getting them to relax around him so he could get close to the chalice.

For those who have missed who Garlan is, he is Loras' older brother. "Garlan the Gallant".

The way he is nice and polite such as criticising Joffrey for abusing Tyrion speaks of genuine gallantry.

I think the women of the family knew. Mace did not know and possibly stills does not know. The way he keeps emphasising that Margaery drank from the same chalice acn seeking Tyrions head makes me think someone has told him after the event. I don't think Olenna would trust him before the event, she thinks he's dumb.

[MIGR]

Can't see why and how the fool could be involved, I think he was at the wedding, but not in a way descirbed as "close to" the king. So I don't think he could have done it.

My idea is QOT and Margery got in it on demand of LF.

The hairnet was indeed put in her pocket when Sansa ran.

[Syri0_F0rel]

Here's my assumption, based on the timeline in the books...

Littlefinger was the engineer of this all.

I think the beginning was in Tyrion 5 (of Clash) - it is this chapter where Tyrion asks LF to negotiate with Lysa Arryn and promises him the title of Lord of the Trident.

The very next chapter in the book is Sansa, and it is this chapter where she first meets Ser Dontos in the Godswood. In this chapter he tells Sansa that no one sent him, but he came on his own. Later in the book, he says he has spoken to a certain man who is a friend to him and to Sansa who will help them escape. It is my opinion that he was lying the first time. I believe Ser Dontos was sent by LF soon after his conversation with Tyrion in the previous chapter. At this point, I don't think he had the whole picture, but he knew things were in motion and coming together that would allow him to formulate a plan. Thus, he enlisted Ser Dontos to help and made his first contact with Sansa.

Some chapters later (roughly 250 pages), in another Tyrion chapter (not sure which #), Littlefinger volunteers to travel to Bitterbridge to negotiate with the Tyrells after the council learns of Renly's death. We have no detailed account of the negotiations, so we are left to speculate.

In Sansa's final Clash chapter, after she has been released from Joffrey and LF granted Harrenhal and the title of Lord of the Trident at the court session, she meets Ser Dontos again. This time he tells her when the escape will take place and he gives her the hairnet and tells her that it is magic she holds, vengeance and justice for her father. It is obvious at this point that the plan is in place and the details worked out.

It seems to me that LF had the idea and made contact, then the trip to Bitterbridge presented the opportunity. Whether the Tyrells already wanted Joffrey dead, or whether he had to "nudge" them in that direction is unknown, but either way, that was part of the deal, IMO. I believe he and the grandmother made the deal and worked out the details of the plan (the hairnet). When he returned with the conquering army, he gave the hairnet to Ser Dontos to give to Sansa. At the feast, the grandmother removed the poison and somebody from the Tyrell camp put it in the cup. One thing I've gathered, and a point worth noting, is that the Tyrells are a close-knit family. I've read the suggestions and I think both Margaery and Butterbumps are reasonable possibilities, especially based their emphasis on family. That tells me that they should be able to trust each other.

That's my two cents on the issue.

This is a great breakdown. Since the hairnet was given only 11 days after the Battle of the Blackwater it seems Littlefinger and Olenna must have worked out much of the plan before hand. What has thrown me off is that Petyr and Olenna did not discuss Sansa's fate or else Olenna would not have tried to marry Sansa to Wilas only to have Petyr squash it. A second point that threw me off was that Olenna did not discuss Joffrey's behavior with Sansa until a month and 11 days after Sansa was given the hairnet, leading me to believe Olenna did not want to kill Joffrey until after the discussion. But that would mean Petyr gave the hairnet before Olenna wanted Joffrey dead, but since that makes no sense she must have planned it before the discussion, maybe using the discussion to show Margaery why he were taking Joffrey out.

[Mithras]

The chalice was near as tall as Olenna and it was standing over the table. I don't think Olenna could slip that poison into that chalice so easily.

Besides, LF was not at the wedding and he didnot tell much to Sansa (and he lies).

[Illusive_Man]

What I don't get is why the hair net! QoT did not need someone to smugly in the poison. No one was given the pat down on the way in; a vile up the sleeve would have done just as well. Without it siting up on top of Sansa head for how many weeks.

Really was it just to make her feel guilty

The hairnet and Dontos were purely involved to gain Sansa's trust. I think LF's plan was more concerned about gettign Sansa out of King's Landing and away from Cersie for his own reasons, and poisoning Joffery was the back drop in his schemes. With Joffery dead, it does help LF's plans without a doubt, but I think his lusting of Cat, and then in turn Sansa was his crux. Involving the QoT was a tit for tat. The Tyrells want more power and that was gained through Margaery becoming queen and Tommen is much more malleable compared to Joffery, let alone not a scociopath. I have no doubt the LF plans on some betrayal of the Tyrells in his own ambitions as well.

[John Suburbs]

The main reason Lady O would want to get rid of Tyrion is to prevent the Lannisters from gaining Winterfell and taking over the north. A military power of that size (literally, half the kingdom with Riverrun and the Frey alliance) would be a major problem for Highgarden.

Lady O could not have possible poisoned the chalice herself because she is too short, and Margy was nowhere near it during the entire pie-cutting, so it would have had to have been Garlen. But that would be to assume that Garlen is not the noble knight he appears to be and would stoop to a coward's weapon like poison, and there is nothing in his demeanor to suggest he is anything but what he appears to be.

Also, note the timelines between the two poisonings with the Strangler: Maester Cressen took a sip of wine poisoned with a "flake" of a crystal and he drops within seconds. Joffrey takes a long drink of poisoned wine and then Margy calls him over for a toast and then he walks to Tyrion's seat, but there is no reaction of any kind. It is only after he eats the first bite of pie that we notice anything is wrong.

And remember, Lady O has been witness to what a real socio/psycho king does -- burning people alive, dipping them in wildfire, etc -- compared to that, Joffrey is a kitten, at least for now. So considering that the whole point of the Lannister alliance is to make Margy a queen and then deliver of a royal heir, why would she jeopardize that with such a risky move as regicide when, even if successful, it pushes that plan back at least five years? At the moment, Joffrey is pleased as punch to be marrying a hotty like Margy rather than mopy Sansa -- look at the way he treats her (Margy) at the wedding -- laughing, picking her up, twirling her around. There is no indication that he meant to do her any harm, so why risk everything at the wedding? There would be plenty of time and opportunity to off him if it became necessary, but that would most like be after a son or two is born and they (Tyrells) wouldn't need him anymore anyway.

So for Lady O, neither the motive nor the opportunity to poison Joffrey exists. But Tyrion's pie would have been easy, even for her.

[Little and Less]

Hmm...here's a stupid thought....what if the hairnet is just a hairnet? (Could the hairnet have been a Plan B B)) And what happened to it? And could something other than the hairnet have poisoned Joffery?

What if LF lied to Sansa about the hairnet being used to poison Joffery? By LF lying to Sansa (and probably Olena Tyrell as well), Sansa now is indebted to him for "saving" her? LF could have easily paid a member of the kitchen staff/serving crew to give Joffery the poison via pie or wine.

Sorry when Chris Daw said that Sansa still (possibly) has the hairnet, why would someone like LF allow her to have access to poison in the future? Especially if poison is a women's weapon and Sansa still doesn't know how involved LF is in the fall of her own House.

Could this be a case of LF ensuring that Sansa can't be tied to Tyrion for Joffery's death? (Its pretty much par for the course that LF was going to exact some revenge on Tyrion given Tyrion fooled him when Tyrion was Hand of the King. Thats seems to be LF's MO - get rid of the people who don't trust/embarass you). If the hairnet is just a hairnet, then the Tyrells also have nothing on LF should they end up turning on him in the future and implicating him in Joffery's death to Cersei. Cersei has always considered LF a friend to the Lannisters.

I mention this because I always thought it was weird that LF would reveal Sansa's identity later in the story (not that I believe his marriage plan). If he does, then he risks the Lannister wrath and the crown accusing her of aiding in regiscide? And more importantly to him, his part in the whole affair. Something has never made sense in his so-called future plan.

[John Suburbs]

There is too much evidence pointing to the hairnet, however. It was most definitely the Strangler that killed Joffrey because his death was exactly the same as Cressen's. And the Strangler in crystal form is purple, just like the amethysts in the hairnet. Plus we have the Ghost of High Heart talking about the maid with purple serpents in her hair.

After all that, if GRRM were to suddenly reveal that the poisoning happened in an entirely different way, I for one would be disappointed.

My guess is that Sansa's true identity won't be revealed until the Lannister hold over the IT is gone, and even then I suspect he has some plan to absolve her of guilt -- an innocent maiden simply following the orders of her lord husband or something like that.

[mee aar dun wee wee]

I don't see why Sansa and the Hairnet are required in most of these theories. Pie is sounding more likely

[John Suburbs]

My guess is that LF gave Sansa the hairnet even before he knew what he wanted to do with it. All part of his "putting the pieces in place" strategy, since he knew that a very public death at the wedding was the best way to create the diversion necessary to remove Sansa without any little birds seeing.

It was only after the RW and her marriage to Tyrion that the target (Tyrion) was chosen and Lady O was brought into the plan because by then she had just as much motive for offing Tyrion as LF did. But the poison was already in Sansa's possession, so it was either palm it at the wedding or get the hairnet back from Sansa on some pretext. The wedding maneuver is more subtle, however, and doesn't create any suspicion in Sansa's mind before the wedding that something nefarious is going on.

Once Lady O has the poison, it is much easier to slip it into the pie than drop it in the chalice, most likely when Tyrion and Sansa were trying to leave. Remember, the last known position for Lady O is right behind Tyrion as the next singer is about to do Rains of Castamere.

[Little and Less]

It's funny how LF would have something directly tied to him though. Why tell the world about Sansa's true identity? This exposes him too - why is he keeping her safe instead of returning her to KL?

It's almost like he knew that the Lannisters were doomed - but how? Varys was the one who killed Kevan...