134 replies to this topic

[nothatso]

Tyrion Lannister, third Child of Lord Tywin Lannister, killed his mother in childbirth.
Daenerys Targaryen, third child of King Aerys Targaryen, killed her mother in childbirth.
Jon Snow, third child of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen (if R+L=J), killed his mother in childbirth.

Stop this "I don't like this character so they can't be one" nonsense and just think about it.

Edited by nothatso, 06 June 2012 - 02:11 AM.

[KC_Accidental]

PromisedPrince, on 05 June 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

why do you think tyrion could be a targaryen? would tywin lanister let him live if it meant having to kill his wife? or if she really died at childbirth then tyrion cant be a targaryen.

The Mad King Aerys was apparently really into Tywins wife and on their wedding day he apparently drunkingly joked about how it was a shame bedding rights weren't still practiced. Some people believe that he took those rights or at some point raped her. It would explain the sudden tension between him and Tywin that started with Tywin giving up position of hand of the king and ending with him taking over Kings Landing during Roberts Rebellion. Also his hatred of Tyrion could stem from more than the fact that he's a dwarf and actually be because he suspects or knows Tyrion is not actually his son. The irony would be (see below) if Tyrion actually was his blood and Jaime and Cersei weren't. They still have the blonde hair because Tywins wife was still a Lannister, his cousin. There is also the matter of Tyrion's fascination with dragons and the fact that he has different coloured eyes, the same as a previous Targaryen of note, I can't remember her name though.

FDyck, on 05 June 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

I like to think that Jamie and Cerci are Targ. It was clear that there was interest between the king and their mother. If they were targ. there is a huge relation to jamie and briennie and the egg and dunk stories. Beyond that he is doing a personality 'rebirth' as well becoming a more "good" character. And the queen is a crazy b so i could see her being the mad kings daughter.

THis would also make sense because they often say that Tyrion is Tywin's true son. This is ment to be that he has the tactics to rule or what ever but it could also be shadowing.

He could stab cerci and then brienne to forge light bringer. If that happens he will def ride a dragon with dany and jon. Although i like the idea above of Jon giving us a POV on the others but i think that will be Bran. The others seem to be somewhat organized and i think that has to do with brans teacher. Bran will take over that role and hopfully control a ice dragon (other dragon?!?)

Also just because i want to say it i think Varys is a Targ. and is the son of one of Aegon's (Egg) brothers children. Could be Meaker (or how ever you spell it) had him while across the red sea "cooling off" after his trial with dunk. Just would be cool, thats why he shaves his head.

I have entertained this notion also. Cersei and Joffrey's madness really do seem like the flip of the coin stuff and I think Aerys fascination and bedding rights with Tywin's wife cannot be ignored. It would be a kind of ironic slap in the face to everyone who hates Cersei and wants her off the throne, to find out that she actually has a legitimate claim to it! Joffrey's madness really reminded me of the mad king, he's a truly sadistic evil little shit but of course that could just be a product of incest. Afterall I don't think Aerys was meant to be mad his entire reign.

If Jaime is a Targaryen though that would make him not only a kingslayer but also a kinslayer! Oh well he's already gone down that road in the TV show anyway!

[mysterious stranger]

the Targ  with mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar i think

Edited by mysterious stranger, 06 June 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[aryagonnakill]

The Lioness Cersei, on 05 June 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I find it absolutely ridiculous to put Jon there. The Starks and Targaryens aren't allies, why on earth would Dany let Jon ride her dragons. Even of R+L=J is true, I don't think that Dany will swallow it. Martin sent him to the wall for a reason!

Ps I'll cry If Dany dies.

GRRM has said that dany and jon are the two main characters, also if jon is a targaryen which many people believe and i find plausible it would make complete sense for him to ride a dragon. Lastly you seem to think that it is Dany's choice who rides "her" dragons.  I think its been made pretty clear that even if she wanted to dany could not ride either of her other two dragons, and that she cannot control any of them completely. Not to mention the dragon horn and all other plot points suggesting that someone else will ride a dragon.  As for Jaime riding a dragon I think it is more likely that he will slay one, perhaps Viserion because tyrion will ride viserion, not aegon, and i only state that as fact because i want it to be.

[Barristan the Boss]

Will there be some kind of fast forwarding of time in the books at some point? Otherwise, I don't even think Viserion and Rhaegal are big enough to ride yet.
When I think '3 heads of the dragon' I always thought '3 main characters' of the books - ie Jon Dany Tyrion. And somewhere in SSM Martin said all 3 heads don't have to be Targ (I'd really hate it if Tyrion were shown to be a Targ anyway).

[The Lioness Cersei]

KC_Accidental, on 05 June 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

If Dany knew that Jon was her cousin and that Rhaegar and her mad father were hugely responsible for the rebellion then I think she would definitely sympathise with Jon. There's also the matter of her vision of the Red Wedding. I believe that this was to build up some sympathy for the Starks. Why else would it be there? Just for the reader? I doubt it. Everything she saw seemed to directly relate to her and her family so there must be some reason linked to her for seeing this. Ser Barristan has been very cautious about telling her the whole truth about her father and how much of an unhinged man he was. He has held back and I think at some point he will spill the beans or someone else will (Tyrion) and then he'll reluctantly back it up. After hearing about how her father burnt Rickard Stark alive while Brandan was forced to watch while strapped to a device that strangled him I'm sure she'll come around to the Starks.

Aegon is undoubtedly the mummers dragon, there is no doubt in my mind that he is not a legitimate Targaryen. Even if just for the fact that it is incredibly cheap for GRRM to introduce him so late with a tale of swapped babies. Of he is a fake then Dany will not like it for obvious reasons and also because he will be challenging her for the throne with a better claim. Aegon is the stuff legends are made of, he is far too perfect so I think he will have to have some major fault i.e. being a fraud. I can see him being roasted alive by Drogon.

Asha Greyjoy is another possibility I suppose, especially if she ends up in Braavos like some people speculate. Not one I favour personally though.

My mind is always cast back to the warning Quaithe gives Dany:

Does this mean she can't trust Tyrion and therefore he won't/can't be one of the dragon heads? Maybe Tyrion will be the one to kill off the dragons in the end because they're too dangerous. Quentyn obviously tried to release the dragons so his distrust is obvious. Aegon if he is indeed fake obviously shouldn't be trusted. Victarion means to steal her dragons and her as well to be his bride so it can't end well with him. I'd guess we all want Tyrion to help Dany so I wonder what it means for him. Maybe the lion will end up being Gerion Lannister who was AWOL in those parts. So yeah, I think this sadly could cast some doubt on the Tyrion theory.

For goodness' sake! Dany is by no means mercifully. She barely seems to believe Aegon, but then how would she Belive Jon. Plus Jon will probably be a bastard and Daenerys will blame Jon's supposed mother Lyanna of throwing Westeros in turmoil. She does not like seeming kind and good because she thinks it's weakness a reason why in clash of kings she gets majorly offended when Ser Jorah old her that she has a good heart. I can relate to Dany and her naivety.

[The Lioness Cersei]

Visery! Was the rightful dragon rider of Viserion!

RIP Viserys forever rest in peace and deep in my heart. Your memory remain internal and unforgettable to me and your kin. You fought for what was right until you were gruesomely murdered by dothraki. You are the Dragon, people found you pathetic and weak while you were strong and powerful! Long live Viserys the third of his name, rightful king of the andals, the first men and The Rhoynar and forever shall your sister Daenerys Princess of Dragonstone, Kalisee of the Great grass plain and Queen or meereen prosper and retake the iron throne, and restore house Targaryen to its formal and rightful glory.

[bent branch]

We are told that a dragon may have more than one rider, but no rider may ride more than one dragon. This leads me to believe that at least one of the dragons will have more than one rider. Therefore, we are looking for at least four people. The dragons have gotten too big to be put on ships and carted to Westeros, so I think the first three riders are all in Mereen or soon will be. My guess for the first three riders are: Dany on Drogon, Tyrion on Rhaegal, and Victarion on Visereon. I place Tyrion on Rhaegal because he can be legitimately called a mummer now and Rhaegal is the most treacherous of the three dragons (not most dangerous, the most treacherous). Thus Rhaegal is the mummer's dragon that Dany is warned about.

Once the three dragons are in Westeros, I think Victarion dies and someone else replaces him as Viserion's rider. I don't really have a guess who yet. Also, I am uncertain if someone will replace Tyrion as Rhaegal's rider, whether or not Tyrion dies.

[Gandalf The Gay]

Jon will end up riding an ice dragon from the north like a total champion

[the_bloodravens_boss]

Lots of posts on this thread, but I would like to point out 3 important things...

1.  On Quaithe's prophecy, the first line is about  the pale mare.  The last two words in that first sentence are "the others".  I can't believe GRRM would write that without anyone picking up the fact that Quaithe is warning Dany and the reader that the others are indeed coming.  The others can be considered a plague as well.

2.  The dragon has 3 heads.  Hmm.  This is only 1 dragon, but has 3 heads.  This could be taken as 1 person with 3 identities.  3 fires and 3 mounts to ride too...these could all be for 1 person.

3.  Most importantly.  GRRM is 62 yrs old and the quality of his writing has dropped off significantly in AFFC and ADWD.  Also, the overall book series seems "on the fence" about a lot of topics.  Take Jon's parentage, all the prophecies, and all the cliffhangers in book 5.  I strongly suggest he is setting up these cliffhangers to go either way, depending on how he feels at the time of writing.  My belief is he has no idea what is going to happen.  The entire Young Griff arc seems so last minute manufactured its almost sickening.

I would love to believe that R+L=J.  I think the majority of the readers agree.  But there is just not enough concrete evidence.  GRRM could make Jon anybody, go write a book yourself and see how much freedom you really have for the characters you create.

[KC_Accidental]

The Lioness Cersei, on 06 June 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

For goodness' sake! Dany is by no means mercifully. She barely seems to believe Aegon, but then how would she Belive Jon. Plus Jon will probably be a bastard and Daenerys will blame Jon's supposed mother Lyanna of throwing Westeros in turmoil. She does not like seeming kind and good because she thinks it's weakness a reason why in clash of kings she gets majorly offended when Ser Jorah old her that she has a good heart. I can relate to Dany and her naivety.

She doesn't like seeming kind and good? What you mean like personally offering aid to plague victims despite the harm it could bring to her and her own people? I admit that the kind of ending GRRM wants could lead to Dany killing Jon or vice versa, unaware of his potential heritage, but I don't believe it is anywhere near the realms of impossibility that she wouldn't hack Jons head off! What has Jon done to her? He is the commander of the Nightswatch, has no interest in the throne and at the very most will only seek to rid the North of Boltons and Freys. He is supporting Stannis of course but I don't think that's enough to make her go to war with him. Dany will if anything sympathise and relate with Jon's willingness to treat the Wildlings as people. Dany hates oppression and Jon is practically the only person willing to save the Wildlings and give them a chance, treating them as the real people they are. As I say, the bittersweet ending could well be that Dany does not find out and kills Jon but it is by no means ridiculous for people to speculate that she'll be "cool" with Jon.

Also R+L=J is pretty much a given. There's tons of evidence and fans had figured it out long before the more substantial evidence in Dance with Dragons came to light. GRRM said he was surprised fans had figured out who Jon's mother was so fast which says that the other supposed mothers mentioned in the books are not the real one. He also stated that he avoids reading fan forums because they speculate so much correctly that he might feel he has to change his story. That tells me that he objects to changing it and so he avoids putting himself in that position. There is no chance in hell that R+L does not equal J! Howland Reed was there for a reason and the fact that he hasn't made an appearance yet is of no coincidence. He holds the truth and he will spill the beans when he appears. Bran will probably back it up (even if just for the reader) with his greenseering.

[irith]

bent branch, on 06 June 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

We are told that a dragon may have more than one rider, but no rider may ride more than one dragon. This leads me to believe that at least one of the dragons will have more than one rider. Therefore, we are looking for at least four people.

I forgot about this, you're probably right. I'd guess:

Drogon - Dany
Viserion - Victarion/Euron, they die somehow, to be replaced by ____? Tyrion seems the best option but I just am not a fan of him riding a dragon.
Rhaegal - Could be Victarion/Euron as well (each one might get one from the horn?), eventually ridden by Jon (assuming R+L=J)

[Annikina]

KC_Accidental, on 05 June 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

If Dany knew that Jon was her cousin and that Rhaegar and her mad father were hugely responsible for the rebellion then I think she would definitely sympathise with Jon. There's also the matter of her vision of the Red Wedding. I believe that this was to build up some sympathy for the Starks. Why else would it be there? Just for the reader? I doubt it. Everything she saw seemed to directly relate to her and her family so there must be some reason linked to her for seeing this. Ser Barristan has been very cautious about telling her the whole truth about her father and how much of an unhinged man he was. He has held back and I think at some point he will spill the beans or someone else will (Tyrion) and then he'll reluctantly back it up. After hearing about how her father burnt Rickard Stark alive while Brandan was forced to watch while strapped to a device that strangled him I'm sure she'll come around to the Starks.

Aegon is undoubtedly the mummers dragon, there is no doubt in my mind that he is not a legitimate Targaryen. Even if just for the fact that it is incredibly cheap for GRRM to introduce him so late with a tale of swapped babies. Of he is a fake then Dany will not like it for obvious reasons and also because he will be challenging her for the throne with a better claim. Aegon is the stuff legends are made of, he is far too perfect so I think he will have to have some major fault i.e. being a fraud. I can see him being roasted alive by Drogon.

Asha Greyjoy is another possibility I suppose, especially if she ends up in Braavos like some people speculate. Not one I favour personally though.

My mind is always cast back to the warning Quaithe gives Dany:

Does this mean she can't trust Tyrion and therefore he won't/can't be one of the dragon heads? Maybe Tyrion will be the one to kill off the dragons in the end because they're too dangerous. Quentyn obviously tried to release the dragons so his distrust is obvious. Aegon if he is indeed fake obviously shouldn't be trusted. Victarion means to steal her dragons and her as well to be his bride so it can't end well with him. I'd guess we all want Tyrion to help Dany so I wonder what it means for him. Maybe the lion will end up being Gerion Lannister who was AWOL in those parts. So yeah, I think this sadly could cast some doubt on the Tyrion theory.

I agree with absolutely all that you said

[Annikina]

I don't know who the heads of the dragons will be, but I can say who I don't want them to be.
Jon: I really don't see him riding a dragon, also because we are not sure in which ... form he will come back (warg? walking dead?); but this may me because I don't like Jon much in first place.
same for Bran, I like him a lot more but I can't see him riding one of the dragons either; especially because I don't like the idea of a skin-changer rider (not because I don't like wargs, I adore them; but I don't really see someone riding inside the head of a dragon) << how different is the head of a dragon?! Bran has to fight to ride Hodor, and when he is in Summer, does what Summer does... the same goes for his siblings having wolf dreams. And there have been all that long explanation about which animals is ok or not to ride inside... so, no Bran-head-of-a-dragon for me.

I don't think Aegon will be one of the heads either. Like someone said before me (sorry, I don't remember and I don't want to look for the post to quote. I am lazy, I know), that he is or not (...not, IMO) a Targaryen, this does not mean that he will be able to ride a dragon.

Plus, GRRM said that not necessarily the dragon riders must be Targaryen.

I do quite see either Euron or Victarion as possible riders (...for Rhaegal, maybe; he's more ferocious than his brother), although I don't like the perspective; and (again, someone else said this before me as well); a dragon can have more than one rider, but a rider only rides the same dragon.
so...
Daenerys, Euron/Victarion (ugh!), the third IDK.
IF Jon rides, it could be on the hypotetical Winterfell-Dragon. The same goes for Bran. Or Rickon! that would be awesome.

[JJtheCrow]

I'm not saying Aegon is the real deal but people seem to dismiss his legitamacy based on the words "Mummers Dragon".  Mummer doesn't have to mean FAKE.  Varys could be the mummer which makes Aegon HIS dragon.  If Jon is a Targ then i believe he will ride one of the dragons.  Also, does the prophesy state that Dany is one of the riders or do we just assume that???  I really hope Tyrion stays a Lannister.

[JP Dayne]

isn`t it obvious that jon and dany are meant to be and rule together by the end of the books?
i`m still not sure who`s the 3rd head tho, but the YG is the only other one hinted up to the end of adwd

[Mugwump]

Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.

It is known.

Another piece of evidence that Tyrion is a Targ is his seeming immunity to disease. A lot of people have pointed out that the Grayscale scenes seemed to be leading to Tyrion getting the disease, yet despite having the most exposure, Connington gets it instead. Then he avoids the pale mare while everyone around him his dying.  GRRM makes a point of Targ immunity to disease earlier in the book. I don't think this is a coincidence.

I don't think it deflates the tension of patricide. Tywin is the only man Tyrion ever knew of as father.

[Vovea]

I think that Jon would end up like Quentyn Martell if he tried to ride one of the dragons. We know he can be burnt and are reminded of it various times when he is described flexing his fingers.

As much as I love Tyrion I hope he isn't one of the three, though putting him on top of a dragon would give him a very large shadow.

If Aegon is legit he'd make a good candidate. Or (if circumstances allowed it) a Baratheon. They have Targaryen blood - one of Robert's bastards or even Stannis.

[oliewankanobe]

The death in childbirth thing just wacked me between the eyes. Huh.

But the flying dreams Bran keeps having have been so hammered-in, too.

Crap.

[nothatso]

Vovea, on 17 June 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

I think that Jon would end up like Quentyn Martell if he tried to ride one of the dragons. We know he can be burnt and are reminded of it various times when he is described flexing his fingers.

Anyone can be burnt. Dany notes she burned her hands after riding Drogon.

Edited by nothatso, 17 June 2012 - 03:34 PM.