267 replies to this topic

[Grey Stark]

jaqenhghar, on 06 June 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Im asking how do we know that Ironborn knew of this silly amnesty.

Wait, do you really expect them to waste time on that? We saw Robb specifically tell Roose and they showed it again in a recap. To show the message being passed to one of the Ironborn (message tied to a rock/arrow and thrown/fired into Winterfell, messages whispered through a gate...) is a waste of valuable screen time. We already know the ironborn were offered amnesty, it doesn't matter how they were told.

Edited by Grey Stark, 06 June 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[Ran]

Or, you know, a raven to Winterfell. Just because Theon had them all killed didn't mean more didn't occasionally arrive.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

PatrickStormborn, on 06 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

From what I can tell, none of the changes to parts of the story resulted in a change to the overall plot. Arya still left Harrenhal, Sansa is no longer betrothed to Margaery Joffrey, Bran is leaving a burned Winterfell, Theon's fate is unknown (just like in the book), Daenerys is heading west, Jon has joined the wildlings on the orders of the Halfhand, Robb has broke his arrangement with Walder Frey, Jaime and Brienne are heading towards King's Landing, and the Others have attacked the Night's Watch at the Fist of the First Men.

Once I got over my initial cognitive dissonance at some of the changes and omissions present in the finale, this is precisely what I came to realize.  Although the path to get to the end of the season was different in several ways (radically different in some), the end result was essentially the same in terms of the major characters' relation to the plot.  Does that excuse D&D for making basic changes many feel were pointless?  No...but it certainly forestalls any hysteria on my part about the showrunners "ruining" the underlying source material.  I am just as excited for season 3 as I was for season 2, and my opinion is that the show remains in good hands.

Quibbles aside, this is still damn good television and a damned effective retelling of a book series that I believe will never be surpassed in the genre.  The TV series is obviously dumbed down compared to the books, but that's by necessity.  The immense level of detail in the books demands a good deal of simplification for a visual medium, not to mention accounting for the huge difference between a purist reader's view as opposed to a casual viewer's.  A large percentage of the TV audience simply will not have the patience to maintain interest while certain book details are played out on the screen.  And if you lose those casual viewers, you've lost the show entirely.  It's a delicate balancing act.

Honestly, when this adaptation was announced, I did not believe it would be a success, and held out little hope that we would even see a 3rd season.  Through two seasons, the show is not perfect by any means.  But at this point in time, it's a good deal better all around than I thought it would be.  Even with the much maligned changes it retains more than enough of the beloved, epic story points and characters to hook new viewers while still pleasing (most of) the veterans.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Ran, on 06 June 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

Or, you know, a raven to Winterfell. Just because Theon had them all killed didn't mean more didn't occasionally arrive.

And Theon might be just stupid enough to have told some of his men about the offer....

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

Quote

They’ve predicated too much on Theon’s remorse, and not quite enough on his desperation.

This ^   Ran, you hit it on the head.  Like so many of the changes we think were unnecessary, this will have emotional repercussions later when we are given an opportunity to witness the fall of this character and sympathize with his desire for a quick death...such a radical change from the life-loving, always laughing Theon of the first books.

Quote

And on the show, Maester Luwin really ought to have been firmly capable of telling them what happened. And yet… nothing. It was a strange choice for the writers to make, and the reasoning behind it escapes me. A chance at leaving some kind of “mystery”?  

my non-reader husband watched the episode twice.  Before I watched the episode [which btw was the second showing- I felt no need to rush to watch it  :-P], he told me that it was "Eh.  They haven't concluded anything, just thrown more stuff at us."  His takeaway is that he has absolutely no idea what is going on except that "I guess they are doing that whole 'drag it out' thing, trying to make cliffhangers."  And this one was a particularly bad cliffhanger.  Much better, as Ran and others suggest, would have been to have Maester Luwin tell them that Theon was betrayed...and Winterfell was betrayed...by Northmen. !!!  Every viewer would have had a WTF moment.

Quote

this episode simply tried to do too much. Why wasn’t Arya’s story wrapped up in season 8? For that matter, why wasn’t Robb’s? Why not Brienne and Jaime’s? So much of this episode is devoted to racing between one character and another that it meant the strength of the individual scenes were curtailed because of a lack of solid context. It’s been a problem endemic of the entire season—and again, “Blackwater” didn’t help—that the writers have expanded some stories without seeming to give enough thought to just how little time would be devoted to other stories that were clearly important in the season. Catelyn and Sansa Stark seemed to be particularly curtailed compared to where they ought to have been, and it’s hard not to imagine that the insistence on doings things such as wrapping up every story in episode 10—rather than allowing some to close in episode 8 to allow others more room to breathe—contributed to the somewhat mixed reception that the episode received from fans and critics alike regarding the structure and pacing of the episode.

I can't help but think that Mo would agree with you on this, as she writes something similarly nearly every recap/review.  Lots of characterization was lost, not only in this episode, but it was very evident here.

Quote

given how much is going on, how much is crossing the desks of the showrunners. They have to be respected for even daring to do this.
And yet….
And yet, they’ve stated certain goals, and one of them was to be faithful and true to the voice and meaning of the series.

(emphasis mine)

This is what is galling to me.  That D&D made alot of promises in interview after interview about how much they were going to respect the integrity of GRRM's story.

I know it's an old story, but Hollywood loves the Fanboys (and Girls) (like me) when it's time to get the word out, spread the viral marketing and show up for initial figures ($$$).  They are all interested in talking the talk to get things off the ground.  Then its, Sayonara.  No doubt we'll read some backlash press about how narrow-minded and obsessive we are.  I don't care if GOT continues to do well, and I don't wish it ill.  But if it is just going to be a loosely adapted story set in "the fictional land of Westeros" for goodness sakes, just tell me that upfront.  I have things I'd rather do than watch that.

Quote

The “song of ice and fire” is literally mentioned in the corresponding chapter in the novel, the first and clearest example of how the narrative ties into a much bigger picture, and it’s gone. The antipathy that the writers seem to have towards enigma is, I believe, the single most surprising thing about them. For myself, and for many readers, the enigmatic parts of the story have been fodder for thousands of hours of speculation and discussion; topics trying to interpret the deep history of the setting, the mysterious prophecies, the secrets in the more recent past, are among the most popular around. The series seem tailor-made to capture some of the Lost viewership, to give viewers something to chew over and ponder between seasons. And… no. Nothing. It’s so baffling.]

(emphasis mine)

This ^

Quote

In hindsight, a number of missteps might well have been avoided if the writers had only trusted the source material—and their own abilities—more than they did, and fought more to adapt faithfully rather than loosely

In total agreement.

jaqenhghar, on 06 June 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

Its so stupid its vomit inducing....

Then we have Jaime Lannister pretending he stole a pig? Out of FEAR OF THREE RANDOM SOLDIERS?
Is that what real Jaime Lannister would have done?

Or would he actually proclaim he is in fact Jaime Lannister and then remind them all, with a big smile, that Lannister pays his debths?
Which would saw discourse among his enemies and force them all to fight - which he would have used to grab a sword and kill whoever left standing.
Or try to.

Brienne being a sadistic super ninja terminator (without a shred of Briennes original naivety and simplicity) doesnt need to be ridiculed out especially i gather?
Or not?

And WHERE...WHERE IS THE GHOST?

Jaqen, I agree with the things I've quoted from you above.  The Jaime scene was entertaining and very well-acted, but as a huge fan of the Jaime-Brienne redemption arc, it hurt me to watch.  I guess they are already buddies, given that they are both incredibly skilled, remorseless killers.  :-\  At least, that was my takeaway.

DirePenguin, on 06 June 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

Luwin dieing moment didn't look like he's dieing at all. He looked strong, speaking perfectly clear and oh so very active : / It's weird.

hahah, I thought the same thing!  I thought perhaps they were going to write Luwin into standing up and joining them on the journey, which so many speculated would happen prior to the casting call for the Reeds.

LordDolorousEdd, on 06 June 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

robb's wedding!!!!! WHY THE HELL WAS IT 'IN THE LIGHT OF THE SEVEN!!!!!!!  would it have been that much harder to stick him in front of a heart tree??????

This was one of several times this episode, and dozens for the season, where I yelled at the tv.

Oh, and I officially Unliked GOT on IMDB.

Edited by A Song of Hound and Wolves, 06 June 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[Crown]

Many of my friends started watching the show without reading the books and they all love it, however they're having a little bit of troubles with the names and connections between families. Most of them are picking up the books right now (after season 2) and I can't wait to see how they react to the different stories. Anyway, non-bookreaders loved season 2.

[Ran]

Theon certainly would have told Dagmer, for sure. The guy was his right-hand. And Dagmer would take it to Lorren, and they'd hash it out with the others...

So, yeah, the fact is, I think in this case the writers did enough to set it up.

[The Frostfangs]

jaqenhghar, on 06 June 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

I would love to see some proof for those 75%. Actually, its more likely its the other way around.

I find the ammount of english language knowledge, type of expressions and the themes in this post really telling about larger simptomatic problem
Also, if viewers dont get who is who in the show and are confused over many things.... i guess its an awesomely made show EEHH?
It must be a problem of books eh?

Onto the review:

Sophie did not "extend her range" with that smile. She has been showing from the start what a great actress she is.
She, like Isaac Hampstead Wright, can act "from the deep", unlike so many others who act on the surface only.
You know...thats what Sean Bean and Mark Addy did in first season. Or What Lena Headey shows.
Her and Peter Dinklage Tyrion performance were the only things that were good in this ep, regardless of how Tyrion scene with Shae proving her love was basically invented

Theons scene is a complete failure. It turned out into a nonsensical cheap comedy stunt while as a whole it fails to provide any relevant information to the viewers.
Did Ironborn know about some sort of promise of amnesty? Or we should imagine so?
Did they know it was Bolton men arround Winterfell? I guess Theon or Luwin just saying so was too much eh?

Luwins death was completely dumb. Why would he get involved at all when he saw Theon knocked out? And why in the seven hells would he go in with that silly, silly overused shallow, cheap line of
"what do you think youre doing?"
And then he doesnt say how come that Winterfell was burned and everyone dead.
I guess Stark kids and Osha didnt care or everything was telepathically clear to them.

It is not a desire to leave some kind of mystery, its a blatant proof of incapability and incompetence to make a good tv show, which has been evident from season one.

Aryas story has been totally scrambled into nonsense, ending with this blatantly cheap scene with Jaqen just finding them somewhere out in the wild and sputing nonsense that has no connection to what was actually happening.
He doesnt have any reason to mention Faceless Men at all, let alone offer to take this Arya "with him" or any other of the nonsense that was going on there.
Let me just remind everyone this is Jaqen that outright refused to kill Tywin but then felt bound to kill himself. - when Arya named him.
All ending in a face change that was done really, really cheaply.

I was actually saying you wont get to see anything from the House of Undying for a long time now.
And i was treated by "being a hater" or somesuch nonsense.

I do understand why you people (all of you) have such unrealistic hopes and all but... man... you should all wake up.

Yes, this isnt the worst episode the show ever had. Congratulations show.
Its one of the big group of worst episodes all swiming in some dark, danky murky hole where each one randomly popps up to the surface for a short while, and then sinks back.


Stannis and Melisandre have been a complete failures all season and the scene here is one of the most glaringly stupid of the two.

Its not just that Stannis is choking her, which is totally out of original character - which this Stannis is not.
Its the blatant stupidity and nonsense of him first blaming her and her visions and her god for his defeat, saying he doesnt believe her - and then believing her vision she shows him while she scratches him behind an ear.

Its so stupid its vomit inducing.



Then we have Jaime Lannister pretending he stole a pig? Out of FEAR OF THREE RANDOM SOLDIERS?
Is that what real Jaime Lannister would have done?

Or would he actually proclaim he is in fact Jaime Lannister and then remind them all, with a big smile, that Lannister pays his debths?
Which would saw discourse among his enemies and force them all to fight - which he would have used to grab a sword and kill whoever left standing.
Or try to.

Brienne being a sadistic super ninja terminator (without a shred of Briennes original naivety and simplicity) doesnt need to be ridiculed out especially i gather?
Or not?

The north has been horribly stupid for quit some time now. The ending scene isnt any kind of surprise except to those most unrealitsically optimistic.
Qhorin was shown as a incapable guy, his whole squad killed ofscrean, in previous episodes leaving him with only some brash dialogue to show how supposedly cool he is. A failure.
The problem here isnt that he and Jon fought or why.
The problem is that the whole thing is cheap generally. Underwhelming and shallow.
The problem is that Wildlings have no freking reason why they should immediately release Jon at all even after the fight, especially seeing how Qhorin attacked Jon and he was just defending.

Shouldnt some questions be asked? Shouldnt Jon proclaim something?


And WHERE...WHERE IS THE GHOST?

all this freaking time....



In the end... i have only one question.
How much of the horse dung it takes to keep the Emotional Engagement?

http://imgur.com/CeCXw

You ser should lighten up.

[Aemon Stark]

Crown, on 06 June 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Many of my friends started watching the show without reading the books and they all love it, however they're having a little bit of troubles with the names and connections between families. Most of them are picking up the books right now (after season 2) and I can't wait to see how they react to the different stories. Anyway, non-bookreaders loved season 2.

Well, you do realize that people have trouble keeping track of names and connections between families simply when reading the books, right?

I frankly find the amount of criticism bizarre. Television is a completely different medium from the printed word and there is neither time nor budget to fully and completely faithfully film a series that Martin started because he did NOT want to be constrained by time or budgets.

jaqenhghar, on 06 June 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yeah, just keep re-imagining and inventing excuses and things to fill plot holes of the show.
Its going to do all of you a lot of good.

And keep praising hbo and those two hacks too.



ffs...

I think your criticisms represent the very worst example of fanboy "Worst Episode Ever" idiocy that I've seen. I'm not sure why nitpicking and tallying dreaded Changes from the Book are really warranted.

It's just a TV show.

I started reading the books way back in 2005, and perhaps if I'd started more recently I might display more of this obsessively rigid attachment to plot details and minutiae. But I was still thrilled to see the Frostfangs and the Fist of the First Men and Theon's first glimpse of Pyke. This has been a season of great dialogue-driven scenes (Arya/Tywin, Varys/Tyrion) and singular moments like Yoren's conversation with Arya just before the arrival of Ser Amory Lorch. And Hot Pie! And Lommy's "counsel" of immediate yielding!

The show cannot be the same as the books, and all I really care about is that the spirit of the characters and the story were there. I don't care about the quibbles about, for example, the burning of Winterfell, because what mattered then was the scene - Bran and the others emerging from the crypts to a smouldering bailey, and finding Maester Luwin, wounded, ashen, in the godswood. If his death hadn't had any impact, then the series would have failed. But as something I knew was coming it was all the worse when it come, perhaps even more affecting than as written.

I watch because I want to see these characters I love and know so well realized on screen. Is it always perfect? Is any TV?

[protar]

Aemon Stark, on 06 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

The show cannot be the same as the books, and all I really care about is that the spirit of the characters and the story were there. I don't care about the quibbles about, for example, the burning of Winterfell, because what mattered then was the scene - Bran and the others emerging from the crypts to a smouldering bailey, and finding Maester Luwin, wounded, ashen, in the godswood. If his death hadn't had any impact, then the series would have failed. But as something I knew was coming it was all the worse when it come, perhaps even more affecting than as written.

I watch because I want to see these characters I love and know so well realized on screen. Is it always perfect? Is any TV?

All you care about is that the spirit of the story and characters are there? I would like to read your edition of Game of Thrones were Brienne is a ruthless killer, were LF is a blundering, mustache twirling villain, and were Tywin is a doting grand father. And the spirit of the story? You know, now that you mention it, one of the things I love most about ASOIAF is all the Romcom. I also really like the modern vibe the books give off despite being in a medieval setting.

Edited by protar, 06 June 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Reposado]

Aemon Stark, on 06 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I watch because I want to see these characters I love and know so well realized on screen.

I do too. But ideally I'd like to watch because it's also a great show on its own,. If the downward trajectory continues, I'll be watching as only a way to see those characters brought to life and those scenes reenacted. Season one showed it could be much more. Parts of season 2 did as well.

Cmon HBO, give them 18 months between seasons

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Aemon Stark, on 06 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

It's just a TV show.

You say that as if ASOIAF was "just books" and not infallible holy scripture.  

[duncanthemedium]

@ Aemon Stark very well put, and I agree with all you've said.

I started reading in 2003, and have reread each book at least 4 times (except aDwD). I think if I had picked up the books just before, just after or during season 1 I'd feel a lot more combative. But to have those images in your mind for 10 years, and now to finally see them, its a blessing.

I am really excited for season 3, as are about 10 to 20 million people worldwide.

A couple of thousand here and there doesnt matter really. Especially when, by NOT watching, they will lose the chance to see those great moments like the RW, PW, the dragons grown, the Wall battle or when we find out if Tywin really shits gold.

[Aemon Stark]

protar, on 06 June 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

All you care about is that the spirit of the story and characters are there? I would like to read your edition of Game of Thrones were Brienne is a ruthless killer, were LF is a blundering, mustache twirling villain, and were Tywin is a doting grand father. And the spirit of the story? You know, now that you mention it, one of the things I love most about ASOIAF is all the Romcom. I also really like the modern vibe the books give off despite being in a medieval setting.

Eh? I haven't been especially happy about LF, but I look forward to his arrival at the Eyrie, whereupon he will make Lysa "fly".

I'm not sure how Tywin's ability to have interesting conversations with a curiously well-spoken cupbearer girl makes him a "doting grandfather". One of the nice things about all these characters how they can act in apparent contradiction - the Hound can rundown the butcher's boy but be gentle to Sansa - and it strikes me that these criticisms have more to do with preconceived notions of how someone should act.

Lanza Rota, on 06 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

I do too. But ideally I'd like to watch because it's also a great show on its own,. If the downward trajectory continues, I'll be watching as only a way to see those characters brought to life and those scenes reenacted. Season one showed it could be much more. Parts of season 2 did as well.

Cmon HBO, give them 18 months between seasons

I really don't understand why season one is held up as some sort of gold standard that this season never even came close to reaching. It was very good and well-realized, but the only major thing lacking this season is Qarth. And even then, I only wish it was fleshed out some more, and we got to see more Quaithe stuff. But it's kinda slow as written, and if did miss the image of the "corrupt heart" in the HotU, I've always found that the image of Dany walking around with dragons on her shoulders altogether more thrilling.

Anyway, I never said that the show is perfect or that there is no basis to criticizing the execution of some stuff. But saying that X is different from the book is a reason not to watch is silly.

[protar]

Aemon Stark, on 06 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Eh? I haven't been especially happy about LF, but I look forward to his arrival at the Eyrie, whereupon he will make Lysa "fly".

I'm not sure how Tywin's ability to have interesting conversations with a curiously well-spoken cupbearer girl makes him a "doting grandfather". One of the nice things about all these characters how they can act in apparent contradiction - the Hound can rundown the butcher's boy but be gentle to Sansa - and it strikes me that these criticisms have more to do with preconceived notions of how someone should act.

LF has been one of the most OOC characters in the entire show. Even back in S1 he was a problem. I'll cut D+D some slack as his subtle nature was no doubt incredibly hard to translate on screen, but they've nonetheless done a terrible job with him. This week's episode was the worst. I mean aproaching Sansa openly in court like that? That is incredibly stupid and not only that but it completely ruins a huge reveal from the books and renders Dontos useless even though they've already introduced him. And as for Tywin, well I just feel he's been way to friendly with Arya. He laughed with her! Tywin Lannister, laughing?!? Sorry What?!?

[Ran]

EP 101: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*1)+(5*4)+(6*15)+(7*36)+(8*54)+(9*56)+(10*26))/192		  =	 8.13
EP 102: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*2)+(5*3)+(6*17)+(7*38)+(8*95)+(9*80)+(10*24))/259		  =	 8.15
EP 103: ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*1)+(4*6)+(5*4)+(6*15)+(7*52)+(8*76)+(9*61)+(10*19))/235		  =	 7.87
EP 104: ((1*1)+(2*2)+(3*5)+(4*3)+(5*9)+(6*24)+(7*36)+(8*64)+(9*88)+(10*39))/271		  =	 8.00
EP 105: ((1*0)+(2*2)+(3*4)+(4*3)+(5*1)+(6*6)+(7*23)+(8*48)+(9*101)+(10*73))/261		  =	 8.63
EP 106: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*3)+(4*3)+(5*2)+(6*6)+(7*12)+(8*34)+(9*97)+(10*67))/224		  =	 8.78
EP 107: ((1*1)+(2*1)+(3*1)+(4*7)+(5*7)+(6*12)+(7*33)+(8*54)+(9*66)+(10*41))/223		  =	 8.11
EP 108: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*1)+(5*4)+(6*5)+(7*13)+(8*46)+(9*79)+(10*116))/264		  =	 9.03
EP 109: ((1*2)+(2*4)+(3*2)+(4*4)+(5*11)+(6*13)+(7*18)+(8*44)+(9*88)+(10*138))/324	  =	 8.69
EP 110: ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*2)+(4*2)+(5*2)+(6*6)+(7*11)+(8*50)+(9*125)+(10*162))/362	  =	 9.07

Season 1 Average: 8.45

SEASON 2

EP 201: ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*7)+(4*7)+(5*29)+(6*39)+(7*144)+(8*182)+(9*79)+(10*38))/529	  =	 7.53
EP 202: ((1*7)+(2*4)+(3*10)+(4*12)+(5*25)+(6*48)+(7*93)+(8*91)+(9*56)+(10*16))/363	  =	 7.02
EP 203: ((1*0)+(2*1)+(3*3)+(4*1)+(5*2)+(6*15)+(7*31)+(8*94)+(9*168)+(10*81))/396	  =	 8.60
EP 204: ((1*5)+(2*3)+(3*9)+(4*8)+(5*17)+(6*32)+(7*66)+(8*112)+(9*99)+(10*45))/396	  =	 7.69
EP 205: ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*3)+(4*3)+(5*8)+(6*16)+(7*39)+(8*96)+(9*128)+(10*60))/355	  =	 8.31
EP 206: ((1*2)+(2*7)+(3*9)+(4*8)+(5*15)+(6*17)+(7*33)+(8*71)+(9*123)+(10*90))/377	  =	 8.11
EP 207: ((1*4)+(2*6)+(3*7)+(4*7)+(5*11)+(6*20)+(7*40)+(8*97)+(9*101)+(10*53))/346	  =	 7.90
EP 208: ((1*5)+(2*5)+(3*9)+(4*13)+(5*17)+(6*42)+(7*77)+(8*101)+(9*61)+(10*26))/356	  =	 7.27
EP 209: ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*2)+(4*2)+(5*1)+(6*8)+(7*12)+(8*21)+(9*106)+(10*437))/592	  =	 9.53
EP 210: ((1*15)+(2*13)+(3*17)+(4*25)+(5*41)+(6*63)+(7*99)+(8*157)+(9*189)+(10*130))/754   =	 7.59

Season Average: 7.97

That's why people feel that this season didn't come close to the last. The averages? Similar. But last season, only one episode was under an 8.0. This season, six were. Last season was more consistently enjoyed.

Fully half of S1 was rated 8.5 or higher. Only two episodes were this season, as well. The forum just largely felt this was a worse season than the previous one. There's many reasons for that, but I think it's clear that the way some pretty amazing material is being cut and substituted with far less compelling material, and the way they've insisted on throwing in more arcs for more characters meaning less time for everyone, is a part of that.

It's also a more difficult season. The story is more spread out, there's many different threads.

But they made the job harder on themselves. They should have dispensed with Robb, they should have allowed some stories to wrap in episode 8 and leave it at that, and so on. There were choices they could have made that would have worked better if they didn't feel they needed to serve the actors, or because this was the "season of romance".

Edited by Ran, 06 June 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[The Frostfangs]

Ran, on 06 June 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

EP 101: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*1)+(5*4)+(6*15)+(7*36)+(8*54)+(9*56)+(10*26))/192		  =	 8.13
EP 102: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*2)+(5*3)+(6*17)+(7*38)+(8*95)+(9*80)+(10*24))/259		  =	 8.15
EP 103: ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*1)+(4*6)+(5*4)+(6*15)+(7*52)+(8*76)+(9*61)+(10*19))/235		  =	 7.87
EP 104: ((1*1)+(2*2)+(3*5)+(4*3)+(5*9)+(6*24)+(7*36)+(8*64)+(9*88)+(10*39))/271		  =	 8.00
EP 105: ((1*0)+(2*2)+(3*4)+(4*3)+(5*1)+(6*6)+(7*23)+(8*48)+(9*101)+(10*73))/261		  =	 8.63
EP 106: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*3)+(4*3)+(5*2)+(6*6)+(7*12)+(8*34)+(9*97)+(10*67))/224		  =	 8.78
EP 107: ((1*1)+(2*1)+(3*1)+(4*7)+(5*7)+(6*12)+(7*33)+(8*54)+(9*66)+(10*41))/223		  =	 8.11
EP 108: ((1*0)+(2*0)+(3*0)+(4*1)+(5*4)+(6*5)+(7*13)+(8*46)+(9*79)+(10*116))/264		  =	 9.03
EP 109: ((1*2)+(2*4)+(3*2)+(4*4)+(5*11)+(6*13)+(7*18)+(8*44)+(9*88)+(10*138))/324	  =	 8.69
EP 110: ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*2)+(4*2)+(5*2)+(6*6)+(7*11)+(8*50)+(9*125)+(10*162))/362	  =	 9.07

Season 1 Average: 8.45

SEASON 2

EP 201: ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*7)+(4*7)+(5*29)+(6*39)+(7*144)+(8*182)+(9*79)+(10*38))/529	  =	 7.53
EP 202: ((1*7)+(2*4)+(3*10)+(4*12)+(5*25)+(6*48)+(7*93)+(8*91)+(9*56)+(10*16))/363	  =	 7.02
EP 203: ((1*0)+(2*1)+(3*3)+(4*1)+(5*2)+(6*15)+(7*31)+(8*94)+(9*168)+(10*81))/396	  =	 8.60
EP 204: ((1*5)+(2*3)+(3*9)+(4*8)+(5*17)+(6*32)+(7*66)+(8*112)+(9*99)+(10*45))/396	  =	 7.69
EP 205: ((1*2)+(2*0)+(3*3)+(4*3)+(5*8)+(6*16)+(7*39)+(8*96)+(9*128)+(10*60))/355	  =	 8.31
EP 206: ((1*2)+(2*7)+(3*9)+(4*8)+(5*15)+(6*17)+(7*33)+(8*71)+(9*123)+(10*90))/377	  =	 8.11
EP 207: ((1*4)+(2*6)+(3*7)+(4*7)+(5*11)+(6*20)+(7*40)+(8*97)+(9*101)+(10*53))/346	  =	 7.90
EP 208: ((1*5)+(2*5)+(3*9)+(4*13)+(5*17)+(6*42)+(7*77)+(8*101)+(9*61)+(10*26))/356	  =	 7.27
EP 209: ((1*1)+(2*0)+(3*2)+(4*2)+(5*1)+(6*8)+(7*12)+(8*21)+(9*106)+(10*437))/592	  =	 9.53
EP 210: ((1*15)+(2*13)+(3*17)+(4*25)+(5*41)+(6*63)+(7*99)+(8*157)+(9*189)+(10*130))/754   =	 7.59

Season Average: 7.97

That's why people feel that this season didn't come close to the last. Last season, only one episode was under an 8.0. This season, six were.

Fully half of S1 was rated 8.5 or higher. Only two episodes were this season, as well. The forum just largely felt this was a worse season than the previous one. There's many reasons for that, but I think it's clear that the way some pretty amazing material is being cut and substituted with far less compelling material, and the way they've insisted on throwing in more arcs for more characters meaning less time for everyone, is a part of that.

It's also a more difficult season. But they made the job harder on themselves. They should have dispensed with Robb, they should have allowed some stories to wrap in episode 8 and leave it at that.

however it is still better than anything on TV right now.

[Ran]

Have you not been watching Mad Men? I'm thinking not. But mileage varies.

[Aemon Stark]

protar, on 06 June 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

LF has been one of the most OOC characters in the entire show. Even back in S1 he was a problem. I'll cut D+D some slack as his subtle nature was no doubt incredibly hard to translate on screen, but they've nonetheless done a terrible job with him. This week's episode was the worst. I mean aproaching Sansa openly in court like that? That is incredibly stupid and not only that but it completely ruins a huge reveal from the books and renders Dontos useless even though they've already introduced him. And as for Tywin, well I just feel he's been way to friendly with Arya. He laughed with her! Tywin Lannister, laughing?!? Sorry What?!?

Dontos is a fairly superfluous character - it seems a reasonable simplification to just have LF tell her directly. I also don't think it's a "huge reveal" - that would be more along the lines of telling us now that Joffrey hired the guy to kill Bran, Lysa killed Jon Arryn, Dany is going to send Ser Jorah packing, Bran is a green-seer, Joffrey dies at his own wedding feast, Tyrion kills Tywin, and Tysha wasn't a whore at all.

On the other hand, I think any staging of Dany's vision of the Red Wedding on screen would have been a huge spoiler rather than somewhat enigmatic foreshadowing.

Ran, on 06 June 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

That's why people feel that this season didn't come close to the last. Last season, only one episode was under an 8.0. This season, six were.

Fully half of S1 was rated 8.5 or higher. Only two episodes were this season, as well.

So on average S2 is rated 0.48 points lower?

Given that there are more people voting this year - and seemingly many more offering "no chain" or "no Weasel soup" as major criticisms - I'm not sure I would make much of that.

[DurararaFTW]

Aemon Stark, on 06 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Well, you do realize that people have trouble keeping track of names and connections between families simply when reading the books, right?

I frankly find the amount of criticism bizarre. Television is a completely different medium from the printed word and there is neither time nor budget to fully and completely faithfully film a series that Martin started because he did NOT want to be constrained by time or budgets.



I think your criticisms represent the very worst example of fanboy "Worst Episode Ever" idiocy that I've seen. I'm not sure why nitpicking and tallying dreaded Changes from the Book are really warranted.

It's just a TV show.

I started reading the books way back in 2005, and perhaps if I'd started more recently I might display more of this obsessively rigid attachment to plot details and minutiae. But I was still thrilled to see the Frostfangs and the Fist of the First Men and Theon's first glimpse of Pyke. This has been a season of great dialogue-driven scenes (Arya/Tywin, Varys/Tyrion) and singular moments like Yoren's conversation with Arya just before the arrival of Ser Amory Lorch. And Hot Pie! And Lommy's "counsel" of immediate yielding!

The show cannot be the same as the books, and all I really care about is that the spirit of the characters and the story were there. I don't care about the quibbles about, for example, the burning of Winterfell, because what mattered then was the scene - Bran and the others emerging from the crypts to a smouldering bailey, and finding Maester Luwin, wounded, ashen, in the godswood. If his death hadn't had any impact, then the series would have failed. But as something I knew was coming it was all the worse when it come, perhaps even more affecting than as written.

I watch because I want to see these characters I love and know so well realized on screen. Is it always perfect? Is any TV?

Luwin just letting Bran believe that Theon burned down Winterfell and killed everybody there is NOT a minor character gripe or nitpick. I don't care where the horse shits, that they gave Charles Dance some room to act by letting him smile and interact with Arya, even postponing most of Arya murders (I still hope there are postponing and she'll have more direct blood on her hands beyond the stable boy when she leaves for Braavos). But this is huge. Bran needs to know that Theon didn't do this for his character arc.