89 replies to this topic

[anikitin]

I agree completely that the Qarth storyline, especially the "changes", is ridiculous. There are two things, however, that I don't understand.
1) Why do people complain about Dany stealing stuff from XXD? He and Pyat Pree stole her dragons and invited her to die at HotU. So, basically, Dany waged a mini-war against XXD and PP, and what she takes is spoils of the victor.
2) Why do people see Doreah's punishment as "too harsh"? Yes, Dany asked Doreah to "fuck around" in order to acquire allies, but she never told her to steal her dragons or sleep with her enemies. Doreah was a traitor (to the crown, since Dany believes herself to be the rightful Queen of Westeros, as well as Khaleesi). Within  the medieval setting, punishing treason with death is perfectly fitting. In fact, even nowadays, government treason (or whatever it is called) is punishable by death or a very long jail sentence.

Edited by anikitin, 06 June 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Lord Varys]

I did not complain about the stealing from Xaro because the writers apparently want to give each character some kind of journey of character development this season. So what's the point if Dany is a unwashed savage at the begin and at the end of a season?

The real problem with the stealing and locking scene is that there is no way that Xaro would leave his estate unguarded, so that Dany's band could actually surprise him in his bedchamber. The man just staged a coup in Qarth. Even if he did not expect Dany to return, he would not let his guard down to prevent that the families of the murdered members of the Thirteen (or their friends) would not try to murder him in his sleep, nor do I believe he would not consider the possibility that Dany's remaining servants would not come after him if she really had disappeared in the House of the Undying...

[gogorath]

Ran, on 06 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

The baffling thing to me is that...

Up to the very end of episode 6, it's basically the story in the novel.

Then the dragon theft. The the murder of the Thirteen. Than a tiny scene in 8. Then this as a finale.

So basically, all the change really covers three "new" scenes -- dragon theft, murder of the Thirteen, hiding out in an abandoned palace.


Were those changes so cool? No, not really.

Were I them, I would have structured it with an ep seven scene showing Xaro increasingly agitated and annoyed with Dany, and her turning to Pyat Pree. Episode 8, House of the Undying. Episode 10, Dany's last chapter -- parting ways with Xaro, assassination attempt, Arstan (with or without Belwas), departure for some place new.

It just seems much, much better to me because the theft-King Xaro narrative was so lacking in urgency.

ETA: The Dothraki were not all dead. Four Dothraki who had been left there as guards, IIRC, were shown dead, but she had 20-30 people left in the band when she reached Qarth.

I don't think their story in Qarth was pointless.  They tried to give Dany a bit of an arc there -- after going from scared girl to Khaleesi in Season One, she is slowly stripped of everything outside of her that gives her some power -- her Khalasar, her trust in Jorah's judgment, her dragons.  She at first tries to again rely on others like XXD and the Spice King, but that fails.  Then she is offered the chance to fall into a dream -- getting Khal Drogo back in this dream state.  She chooses not to, asserts herself and gets her dragons back.  A very Dothraki Dany then gets revenge and some booty.

It's not the book.  But there's an arc there, it's consistent with Dany's growth (in not the same way) and it's not overly inconsistent with her character -- who frankly did whine a lot in Qarth and isn't the nicest to her enemies.

That all said, I'm with you on execution.  If you're going to change it, they needed to go a bit more full bore.  I didn't need three episodes of the Waste.  I don't necessarily need the prophecies in HotU (though I would have liked those scenes), but at minimum draw out her decision -- have it span two episodes.  Make us think she might stay with Drogo.  Make it scarier, perhaps.  And take some time to fill in the plot holes and backstory with the whole Xaro/13/Doreah storyline.  Frankly, people love the KL's politics, they would have liked this.

Other than the HotU, book Dany in aCoK is pretty unmemorable, so I had no problem with making more of a Season arc (many of George's characters are on multiple book arcs).  But I feel like "red wasting" time and then rushing Qarth made the execution not as memorable as it could be.  A bit of the same with Qhorin.  I like moving Ygritte up; but don't rush the rest because of it.

[gogorath]

anikitin, on 06 June 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I agree completely that the Qarth storyline, especially the "changes", is ridiculous. There are two things, however, that I don't understand.
1) Why do people complain about Dany stealing stuff from XXD? He and Pyat Pree stole her dragons and invited her to die at HotU. So, basically, Dany waged a mini-war against XXD and PP, and what she takes is spoils of the victor.

When you see someone complain about this, you know they really aren't open to any changes.  Dany cares about people, but she's never been particularly kind to those who cross her, and she never becomes that way.  XXD stole her dragons, had her friend(s) killed.  This is a woman who didn't care that much when her brother died screaming, who will sentence every slaver in Astapor to death.  She's not exactly merciful when she views someone as guilty. Claiming that that is out of character is ridiculous and claiming that her story arc is about her being nicer is stupid.  Dany's arc in this season -- though not great -- was more about self-reliance than anything.

Quote

2) Why do people see Doreah's punishment as "too harsh"? Yes, Dany asked Doreah to "fuck around" in order to acquire allies, but she never told her to steal her dragons or sleep with her enemies. Doreah was a traitor (to the crown, since Dany believes herself to be the rightful Queen of Westeros, as well as Khaleesi). Within  the medieval setting, punishing treason with death is perfectly fitting. In fact, even nowadays, government treason (or whatever it is called) is punishable by death or a very long jail sentence.

I think it's harsh personally, but not OOC for Dany.  She's harder than me.  Doreah's a paid servant, and she made a bad decision.  She certainly can't be trusted, but there's lot of situations where her intentions were pretty awful (I can screw Dany over and increase my station in life) and some where it's more understandable (XXD has told me Dany is never coming back from the HotU -- I can be his concubine or go out on the street).

If it's the latter, you may not trust her, but do you sentence her to death?  I don't, but I think Dany may.

[SerMilady]

protar, on 06 June 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Nonsense happened in Qarth.

Seriously the whole plot was a let down. I realise they had to expand on what happened in the books, but couldn't they have done something better. My personal idea was to expand a bit on Dany dealing with the merchants and getting rejected, so eventually she accepts Xaro's proposal. But then we get Doreah seducing Xaro (and getting him drunk) so he reveals the Qartheen wedding custom (was that even mentioned in the show?) and that he had been bribing the other merchants to refuse Dany. Once this comes out Dany would be decide to go to the HOTU as a last resort in E8 (Which seriously needed some substance.). Then in E10 we have the whole meeting Barristan stuff.

What are you doing not writing this show? Damn. That would have spiced the storyline up while still staying true to things established in the book.

Edited by SerMilady, 06 June 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Im no Ser]

gogorath, on 06 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

When you see someone complain about this, you know they really aren't open to any changes.  Dany cares about people, but she's never been particularly kind to those who cross her, and she never becomes that way.  XXD stole her dragons, had her friend(s) killed.  This is a woman who didn't care that much when her brother died screaming, who will sentence every slaver in Astapor to death.  She's not exactly merciful when she views someone as guilty. Claiming that that is out of character is ridiculous and claiming that her story arc is about her being nicer is stupid.  Dany's arc in this season -- though not great -- was more about self-reliance than anything.

Agreed completely.  Complaints about this are only for complaining's sake.

gogorath, on 06 June 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I think it's harsh personally, but not OOC for Dany.  She's harder than me.  Doreah's a paid servant, and she made a bad decision.  She certainly can't be trusted, but there's lot of situations where her intentions were pretty awful (I can screw Dany over and increase my station in life) and some where it's more understandable (XXD has told me Dany is never coming back from the HotU -- I can be his concubine or go out on the street).

If it's the latter, you may not trust her, but do you sentence her to death?  I don't, but I think Dany may.

OK, but what betrayal/bad decision did Doreah commit?  She was told to sleep around and she did.  There is nothing to suggest (that I saw anyway) to indicate that she had anything to do with the dragon theft.

[erolyn]

I, on 06 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

OK, but what betrayal/bad decision did Doreah commit?  She was told to sleep around and she did.  There is nothing to suggest (that I saw anyway) to indicate that she had anything to do with the dragon theft.

My assumption was (after that little scene in ep. 5 where Dany says "[Drogon] loves you" to doreah) that Xaro and Pree needed Doreah to help them safely take the dragons away. If they trust Doreah, they'll go quietly. Otherwise I think it would be hard for them to take the dragons from Dany without severe burnination occuring.

[StannisandDaeny]

My thoughts on Qarth are divided. I loved how it and the people there looked. Pyat Pree was pretty awesome, Xaro was more memorable than he was in the books (in the books he's not memorable at all). The stealing of the dragons and murdering of the Khalasar and the Thirteen added some necessary drama, although a slight mention of an uproar should be the least we could expect when a coup suddenly takes place in such a place.

Xaro's vault was pretty pointless.

Things went sour when they took ages to get to the HotU with little reason to wait. I got over the (lack of) visions, but not so much over the much too easy way Pyat Pree and Xaro were beaten. Getting rid of Doreah was perhaps not the best move when you've already killed off all of her other handmaidens. Xaro also shouldn't have died since you know, he's still kickin'... Then there's Daeny's khalasar dying, to be mysteriously resurrected afterwards.

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 06 June 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[atia-]

Because Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen, Khaleesi, Queen of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Shackles and Chains, Princess of Dragonstone, and the Mother of Dragons said that she was going to take what was hers with blood and fire, and everyone that was left fled immediately out of fear of being locked in a Valyrian stone vault.  

Edited by hk47, 06 June 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Arataniello]

One of the most disappointing things out of the whole Qarth scenario was the use of the Dragon-fire Lasers of Death^TM to kill Pyat Pree.

The writers/directors thus have pre-empted the drama and great imagery from the scene outside Astapor/Yunkai (I can never keep the slave cities straight in my mind), when Dany unleashes Drogon's fire on the slave masters, which will weaken that episode/scene when we get to it (If we ever do).

[StannisandDaeny]

We probably will: it's pivotal to getting her army, and getting her army is pivotal to pretty much everything that happens later 'cos really, the Unsullied are pretty much the only reason she has power at the moment.

[Arataniello]

StannisandDaeny, on 06 June 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

We probably will: it's pivotal to getting her army, and getting her army is pivotal to pretty much everything that happens later 'cos really, the Unsullied are pretty much the only reason she has power at the moment.

Right, but the shock factor, the wowness of it all, of having Dany sing out 'Dracarys' and have Drogon blast the slaver in the face has been flattened/deadened/lost by the use of dragon fire in the HotU in Qarth.

[Harrad]

Arataniello, on 06 June 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

One of the most disappointing things out of the whole Qarth scenario was the use of the Dragon-fire Lasers of Death^TM to kill Pyat Pree.

The writers/directors thus have pre-empted the drama and great imagery from the scene outside Astapor/Yunkai (I can never keep the slave cities straight in my mind), when Dany unleashes Drogon's fire on the slave masters, which will weaken that episode/scene when we get to it (If we ever do).

Seems to me this was a great idea. In this scene we get little dragons with a directed strike a single man. The key here was that magical dragon fire could take out someone resistant to normal weapons. This will foreshadow a bigger dragon weighing in on many armed combatants.

[atia-]

A lot of the Unsullied have complained about the Dragon Lasers too.  I've read things from "ridiculously stupid looking" to "anticlimactic."  It wasn't a really popular season for Dany.  People expected something from her as exciting as last season and for her to go to Westeros, and we obviously knew that nothing in the following books was anywhere close to as interesting compared to her overall storyline in GoT.  There are moments (like getting on Drogon), but it's almost guaranteed people are going to be let down with her storyline this season and the next and the next.... and it doesn't help when the writers butcher it either.

I remember at the beginning of the season reading one of the Unsullied, "Okay, girl....times are hard, but you better get your ass to Westeros soon or you're going to get boring!"  Ummm....good luck with that

Edited by hk47, 06 June 2012 - 02:14 PM.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Arataniello, on 06 June 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

One of the most disappointing things out of the whole Qarth scenario was the use of the Dragon-fire Lasers of Death^TM to kill Pyat Pree.

The writers/directors thus have pre-empted the drama and great imagery from the scene outside Astapor/Yunkai (I can never keep the slave cities straight in my mind), when Dany unleashes Drogon's fire on the slave masters, which will weaken that episode/scene when we get to it (If we ever do).

Agreed.  And when she stood there savoring in PP's death, she looked more like the Mad King than anything else.

[StannisandDaeny]

Arataniello, on 06 June 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Right, but the shock factor, the wowness of it all, of having Dany sing out 'Dracarys' and have Drogon blast the slaver in the face has been flattened/deadened/lost by the use of dragon fire in the HotU in Qarth.

They did use it in the book too I think? Ages since I read it but I'm pretty sure that was the first major use of dragon's fire either way.

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 06 June 2012 - 02:46 PM.

[Ran]

In the novel, Drogon seems to have a preternatural ... I don't know, lets call it foresight or agency in the House of the Undying. It's Drogon that "urges her on" when she's about to get stuck, who hisses and roars at the illusions that she needs to beware, who reveals to her where she was almost tricked by one door being hidden behind another. And it's Drogon who, all alone, blasts the Undying and flies to the heart,  tearing at it and burning it.

This matches very nicely, I believe, with Quaithe's reminder that Dany remembers the Undying... and what happens in her last two ADwD chapters, where it seems that Drogon's role is to drive her back to her destiny after her getting mired in Meereen.

Is it a huge problem? No. But it'd have been nice to have those little dragons act on their own to defend their "mother", rather than needing the "Dracarys" moment copped from Slaver's Bay.

[GoodGuyA]

Ran, on 06 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

So basically, all the change really covers three "new" scenes -- dragon theft, murder of the Thirteen, hiding out in an abandoned palace.

Yes, but you were also calling out the show before we even got to Qarth. I understand your frustration with XXD and the loss of "intrigue" with the 13, but your red flags were waving high long before any of these alterations happened. All the pre-airing material seem to be the supposedly complex "fairy tale" of Qarth, yet you were berating it every step of the way. I understand you know the production better than we do, but you made it out to seem like it simply wasn't the way you imagined it and thus it could not be successful.

Ran, on 06 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Were I them, I would have structured it with an ep seven scene showing Xaro increasingly agitated and annoyed with Dany, and her turning to Pyat Pree. Episode 8, House of the Undying. Episode 10, Dany's last chapter -- parting ways with Xaro, assassination attempt, Arstan (with or without Belwas), departure for some place new.

The issue with ending it like this is that it's not a cliff-hanger, it's just confusing. Season 1 also had the liberty that they could end introducing characters in order to properly pave way for the world to open up. Having Belwas show up (a character who ultimately has little to do with the plot) would mean booking an actor as well as reintroducing and ending the assassination sub-plot that hasn't been mentioned all season.

I also don't understand why the theft of the dragons is really that much of a hit to the entire storyline. If anything, it's an improvement over a vague promise from Pyat Pree. The original storyline, I guess, deals with Dany's naivity. However, because of her older age and the places her storyline is likely to go, the show has focused more on her blinding loyalty to what makes her the true heir. In this way, the dragons being stolen makes sense as a temptation, and the entire HotU scene focused around that temptation. That is not a failure in storytelling.

[Targaryen Kaiser]

Dany was harsh not because of her decision to punish Doreah and XX.D with death for their treachery, but the way she let them die. Locked in a impregnable safe? This is a terrible death, no one deserves such a fate.

[Reposado]

GoodGuyA, on 06 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yes, but you were also calling out the show before we even got to Qarth. I understand your frustration with XXD and the loss of "intrigue" with the 13, but your red flags were waving high long before any of these alterations happened. All the pre-airing material seem to be the supposedly complex "fairy tale" of Qarth, yet you were berating it every step of the way. I understand you know the production better than we do, but you made it out to seem like it simply wasn't the way you imagined it and thus it could not be successful.

The issue with ending it like this is that it's not a cliff-hanger, it's just confusing. Season 1 also had the liberty that they could end introducing characters in order to properly pave way for the world to open up. Having Belwas show up (a character who ultimately has little to do with the plot) would mean booking an actor as well as reintroducing and ending the assassination sub-plot that hasn't been mentioned all season.

I also don't understand why the theft of the dragons is really that much of a hit to the entire storyline. If anything, it's an improvement over a vague promise from Pyat Pree. The original storyline, I guess, deals with Dany's naivity. However, because of her older age and the places her storyline is likely to go, the show has focused more on her blinding loyalty to what makes her the true heir. In this way, the dragons being stolen makes sense as a temptation, and the entire HotU scene focused around that temptation. That is not a failure in storytelling.

its not the theft of the dragons that presents the problem. its the executing of political rivals and self-proclaiming of kingship political story that is tacked on without exploring. they could have come up with a dragon stealing plot that worked. they didnt