[TV/Book Spoilers] What´s the deal with the Freys?

[Thunderfist]

How come noone has ever mentioned the fact that Robb marrying Talisa would cause him to loose the Freys and their 4000-5000 soldiers? It seems like the sort of thing that Catelyn would say, or the Greatjon, the Blackfish or anyone really. Losing the Freys meant losing the war, at least it would be 1000 times harder to win it. Did the Freys in the TV-show not contribute any soldiers to Robbs army, or did Robb care more about his marriage than he did about winning the war? I don´t understand it

In the books we never really get told what exactly happened when Robb married Jeyne. But in the tv-show, there seems to have been weeks/months of time where someone could have intervened in order to prevent the North and the Riverlands from losing the war because of Robbs love-interest.

[Maester Hodor]

Catelyn tells Robb in episode 10 that he shouldn't be reckless and he should stay true to his word and marry a Frey.

Robb responds by saying something like "My mother has no right to call anyone reckless"

[Thunderfist]

But my point was that Robb wasn´t being reckless, he was making a decision that would cause the North/Riverlands to loose the war. So why didn´t Catelyn tell him this? Or anyone else for that matter, surely most of his lords must have realised what losing the Freys would mean for the war effort?

[Studlymuffin]

Catelyn is the worst and can't make very good decisions.

[Thunderfist]

Catelyn is the worst and can't make very good decisions.

Compared to Tv-Robb, she´s pretty much a Nobel prize winner in decision-making

[Maester Hodor]

But my point was that Robb wasn´t being reckless, he was making a decision that would cause the North/Riverlands to loose the war.

That is basically the definition of being reckless.

So why didn´t Catelyn tell him this? Or anyone else for that matter, surely most of his lords must have realised what losing the Freys would mean for the war effort?

Catelyn does tell him he's making a mistake. Robb didn't care because his mother released the King Slayer. I have no idea why his other Lords didn't tell him the same thing. Maybe they did, and he just didn't listen to them either. You know those Starks, a stubborn group of people!

[Lord Over]

Catelyn is the worst and can't make very good decisions.

Compared to Tv-Robb, she´s pretty much a Nobel prize winner in decision-making

Sadly, both of these statements are correct. Catelyn keeps fucking up things left and right, yet somehow manages to come across as a rational thinker than Herp-derp Robb.

Can't wait for the RW. I was impartial to Robb in the books but here, I straight out loathe him.

[Thunderfist]

That is basically the definition of being reckless.

Catelyn does tell him he's making a mistake. Robb didn't care because his mother released the King Slayer. I have no idea why his other Lords didn't tell him the same thing. Maybe they did, and he just didn't listen to them either. You know those Starks, a stubborn group of people!

The old saying "two wrongs don´t make a right" comes to mind

So basically Robb was thinking: "Well, Mommy released the Kingslayer and that really pissed me off", "So to get back at her, I´m gonna make damn sure we loose the entire war and that soldiers and commoners alike will suffer miserable deaths in the tens of thousands", "That will teach them who´s the boss"

[Khal Pono]

It's been a while, but I believe in Season 1, Catelyn specified that Frey would be sending his knights and soliders to fight as part of the deal (though I'm sure they didn't reveal the actual number of Freys being enlisted to help them, as the book does). So yes, I think viewers must assume that he is running the danger of losing all the Frey men (though, again, perhaps their number is less substantial in the show than in the books).

This is just speculation, but because Robb is really just a kid, perhaps he believes he can somehow convince the Freys to stay loyal to him despite breaking the betrothal--a foolish assumption, but no more foolish than marrying Talisa in the first place

[dtones520]

I don't really understand how show Robb's decision is any different or worse than book Robb's decision. Yeah, book Robb was upset about his brothers dying, but getting married is a pretty extreme decision. Book Robb marries Jeyne because he felt bad about taking Jeynes maidenhead and, i think, he thought or did live her. Show Robb marries Talisa because he falls in love with her after getting to know her. Robb still wasn't in a great mental state after finding out he was betrayed by someone he considered a brother and his home being conquered.

So one gets married for love, the other gets married because he popped a girls cherry. Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling gained him nothing, they had like 100 soldiers. Both make stupid decisions, both cost them the Freys, both lead to the eventual loss of the War/Red Wedding. Why do people loathe show Robb so much compared to book Robb?

[dtones520]

The old saying "two wrongs don´t make a right" comes to mind

So basically Robb was thinking: "Well, Mommy released the Kingslayer and that really pissed me off", "So to get back at her, I´m gonna make damn sure we loose the entire war and that soldiers and commoners alike will suffer miserable deaths in the tens of thousands", "That will teach them who´s the boss"

Robb didn't marry Talisa as an F U to Catelyn. He was talking to her about him marrying her, she was trying to talk him out of it makes a comment about him being reckless. Which pisses him off because Catelyn just made a huge reckless decision, so Robb ends the argument with him saying who are you to call me reckless? He was going to marry her either way, IMO.

[Thunderfist]

There's a difference in the degree of recklessness though. Robbs decision was pretty much guaranteed to cost the North/Riverlands the war. Cats certainly made things worse but it was nowhere near as bad, especially since it doesn't even seem to have lost them the Karstarks.

But my main question was more about why noone told Robb that his marriage would cost him the war. And as I mentioned earlier, we don't know how the book wedding went down, but the tv-wedding has been weeks / months in the making. Why didn't anyone intervene? Or did Robb know that he would loose the Freys and the war but just didn't care?

[SerMixalot]

Catelyn is the worst and can't make very good decisions.

Correction: Show Catelyn....

[SerMixalot]

From a literary standpoint, Book Robb is the classic tragic hero. Until he makes his tragic mistake of sleeping with Jeyne he acts perfectly, wins every battle, wins every diplomatic maneuver, leads a charmed life. After his tragic mistake, his life collapses. Edmure defeats Tywin at the Trident, Karstark kills the Lannisters, He has to kill Karstark leading to the RW. And after his tragic mistake, all his decisions are wrought with perils to his honor and his duty-father a bastard, dishonor a noble woman, punish a northerner for killing his enemy, a battle WON that cost him a larger victory-CLASSIC

Show Robb is simply not a classic tragic hero. He is a dumbass doing dumb things.

That is the difference and that is why show Robb sucks compared to Book Robb.

[Dunnii]

There's a difference in the degree of recklessness though. Robbs decision was pretty much guaranteed to cost the North/Riverlands the war. Cats certainly made things worse but it was nowhere near as bad, especially since it doesn't even seem to have lost them the Karstarks.

But my main question was more about why noone told Robb that his marriage would cost him the war. And as I mentioned earlier, we don't know how the book wedding went down, but the tv-wedding has been weeks / months in the making. Why didn't anyone intervene? Or did Robb know that he would loose the Freys and the war but just didn't care?

why are you saying the tv-wedding was weeks / months in the making. I didn't get that impression at all. And I don't think his talking to someone necessarily led to a wedding. And further, the wedding was done at night with only two others there; this was obviously a rather secretive wedding.

I don't get all the hate for Robb here. I thought TV Robb was pretty interesting and he is young and fell in love. Jeez.

He is still a classic tragic hero. Nothing has changed. He makes a mistake for love and pays the ultimate price.

[Khal Pono]

Why didn't anyone intervene?

I think Joffrey said it best: the king can do as he likes.

And his main advisor besides Catelyn lately seems to be Roose Bolton, so knowing his role in the story, he probably *wants* Robb to fail so he's not going to tell him to stop.

[sennahoj]

The problem with the Freys is that they have hardly featured in the show, it was only that one episode with the crossing of the Twins. They are only referred to in conversations, no mention of their contribution to the war effort, the fact that a Frey boy squires for Robb (or was that only the book now?) and one was meant to marry Arya. On top of that it has hardly been made clear where the Freys stand in the hierarchy of the Seven Kingdoms, that in fact they are bannermen to the Tullys, who have not been introduced as Robb's allies either. So how are viewers to know how the Freys will react to Robb marrying Jeyne Talisa. That is another issue as well. Had Robb actually married Jeyne Westerling, daughter of a Lannister bannerman, the Freys, being only bannermen and not a ruling house of any province either, might still have been able to stomach it, but this foreigner who has no credentials to her shoddy backstory? With that kind of setup the RW will come as no surprise to viewers at all, and that is kind of sad.

[Thunderfist]

why are you saying the tv-wedding was weeks / months in the making. I didn't get that impression at all. And I don't think his talking to someone necessarily led to a wedding. And further, the wedding was done at night with only two others there; this was obviously a rather secretive wedding.

The actual wedding probably took place a few days after they had sex. But we've seen flirting, romantic strolls, repeated visits to the royal tent for what must have been at least weeks if not months. And what I find so hard to beleive is that during all this time, noone, not the Blackfish, not the Greatjon, not Galbart Glover, not Maege Mormont, nor Catelyn or any lord fromt the North or the Riverlands told Robb that: ' if we loose the Freys, we will most likely loose the entire war '

[Reposado]

The actual wedding probably took place a few days after they had sex. But we've seen flirting, romantic strolls, repeated visits to the royal tent for what must have been at least weeks if not months. And what I find so hard to beleive is that during all this time, noone, not the Blackfish, not the Greatjon, not Galbart Glover, not Maege Mormont, nor Catelyn or any lord fromt the North or the Riverlands told Robb that: ' if we loose the Freys, we will most likely loose the entire war '

and also, if you spend all your time on romantic strolls, we will lose the war

[David Selig]

Yeah, this has annoyed me too. Robb goes on and on about how he made a deal "for a bridge" and everybody ignores that he got a sizeable army too which he desperately needs now.

I guess it's because the producers have decided to almost completely ignore the Riverlands role in the show this season. Watching the show this season Robb's army seem to be only Northerners.

And it was never said straight out in the show, but it was implied Robb got around 4000 soldiers from the Freys. First there was a mention that the Freys were outnumbered 5:1 by Robb's army of 20,000 when he was considering what to do outside the Twins, then Cat mentioned that all but a few hundreds of those are joining Robb'as forces as part of the deal.