101 replies to this topic

[TeamDanyArya]

total1402, on 08 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

There was a prophecy predicting that her womb would quicken again some day.

I've seen some discussion that when she notes menustrating again in her last chapter in ADWD it could be taken as a sign she's fertile again.

[total1402]

TeamDanyArya, on 08 June 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've seen some discussion that when she notes menustrating again in her last chapter in ADWD it could be taken as a sign she's fertile again.

I know, I was just being cryptic coz I wasn't sure about spoilers for Dances with Dragons.

[Silver Spearwife]

total1402, on 08 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

I know, I was just being cryptic coz I wasn't sure about spoilers for Dances with Dragons.

We don't watch for Dance spoilers. To my knowledge, that time period for that has passed.

[Winter's Knight]

PatrickStormborn, on 08 June 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

If Martin's good he'll have Drogon eat Jon and Tyrion, and have Dany and Sansa hook up. But I think the fandom's response to the Jon and Dany pairing would be more entertaining than anything else, which is why I support it.

A man after my own heart.

[Dr. Pepper]

total1402, on 08 June 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

The only thing I disliked was Danny 'loving' Daario. Her situation reminded me a lot of Arithon from Wars of light and shadow, she really wants to do good, but everybody makes it impossible for her to do that and contributes towards her paranoia. So i felt she was more a victim and Drogon flaming everything wasn't her fault since she couldn't control him. Its one of those good intentions horrible consequences, a bit like Ned Stark.

Also, Frey and Bolton are evil. When the RW happened I swore a prayer to Crom roaring for vengence 'and if not, then to hell with u!'

I personally didn't have any problem with Dany having sex with Daario.  She was not married, she had taken now vow of celibacy, she was not forcing anyone or being forced herself.  I'm of the opinion that as long as one has not taken a vow to abstain or a vow of marriage, they can screw whomever they wish.  There's moon tea and magic to use as birth control.

I don't think anyone denies that Dany' had good intentions.  Wanting to end slavery is a noble endeavor.  It's the way she went about it.  She sacks three cities without any plan on how the people of the cities will live or eat once her war with them is over.  She contributes to her own paranoia by placing the former slavers as advisors even when she doesn't think she can trust them.  She was responsible for Drogon's behavior because he was her weapon that she chose not to learn how to control before allowing them to roam free while she sat on her bench declaring rules and judgements willy-nilly.  Good intentions can still have devastating consequences for thousands of people.  I don't let people off the hook for their destructive mistakes just because their intentions were good.

[total1402]

Dr. Pepper, on 08 June 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

I personally didn't have any problem with Dany having sex with Daario.  She was not married, she had taken now vow of celibacy, she was not forcing anyone or being forced herself.  I'm of the opinion that as long as one has not taken a vow to abstain or a vow of marriage, they can screw whomever they wish.  There's moon tea and magic to use as birth control.

I don't think anyone denies that Dany' had good intentions.  Wanting to end slavery is a noble endeavor.  It's the way she went about it.  She sacks three cities without any plan on how the people of the cities will live or eat once her war with them is over.  She contributes to her own paranoia by placing the former slavers as advisors even when she doesn't think she can trust them.  She was responsible for Drogon's behavior because he was her weapon that she chose not to learn how to control before allowing them to roam free while she sat on her bench declaring rules and judgements willy-nilly.  Good intentions can still have devastating consequences for thousands of people.  I don't let people off the hook for their destructive mistakes just because their intentions were good.

Oh I don't care if Danny has every man in Mereen and their wives!   Hell, she could mount her dragons if she wanted and i wouldn't particularly mind. What annoys me is that the character knows Daario doesn't love her, is just acting, but still calls it love when she knows its not.

Actually, she doesn't sack Yunkai (something she rues later) and sack implies as in Winterfell with the Boltons put everyone to the sword. Which Danny never did. She actually controlled her own eager soldiers and sellswrods whilst only executing the heads of the families. Also, Danny does take these mistakes she makes very hard, but she doesn't know any better. Believe me I'd much rather she had moved on. But far more suffering would have occured if she had left; look at Astapor for example. Trying to bridge the boundaries was the only way. Plus Martin wanted things to be very difficult to Danny to make up for her being godlike in Storm of Swords which is why she has no friends in Mereen. She literally has to make these shitty decisions. Yes, she should have spent more time taming Drogon and the visions berate her for this at the end of ADWD. Basically its meant to be a learning experience. Remember shes only 16 and still learning to be a ruler and this is her first experience of being such. Her advisors don't actually come up with particularly better advice and she repeatedly has her hands tied.I expect that Daenerys is probably going to mature and have a Rhaegar moment where she sits up and takes her responsibilities seriously like Rhaegar became a great warrior. Just give her time, shes not quite Dovahkiin yet.

Edited by total1402, 08 June 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Apple Martini]

TeamDanyArya, on 08 June 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've seen some discussion that when she notes menustrating again in her last chapter in ADWD it could be taken as a sign she's fertile again.

Infertile women can still menstruate. And I believe she had a miscarriage in that chapter; it was not a normal period.

ETA: And while we're on the topic, I think the assumption that Jon and Dany will get together is a misinterpretation of the "bride of fire" sequence. I think it'd be a pretty horrible, sappy, trite, cliched development and I expect better from Martin.

Edited by Apple Martini, 08 June 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Lord Ben]

When they say "when your womb will quicken again" does that mean menstruate though?

[Apple Martini]

Lord Ben, on 08 June 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

When they say "when your womb will quicken again" does that mean menstruate though?

I assume it to mean becoming pregnant. If something quickens, it becomes "alive." I never thought the phrase "when your womb quickens again" meant anything other than pregnancy. As I said, it is possible for infertile women to still menstruate.

Edited by Apple Martini, 08 June 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Thucydides Battuta]

Is Jon and Dany getting together really that sappy, after all this is fantasy.  I kind of like the fact that you feel like you reading historical fiction with this element of fantasy descending upon it and dicking up everyones plans. "Wow this must be what it was like to live in medieval times ... what's that you say, a human shadow pulled itself out of her snatch?" ... Also, would it be that sappy if they got together as a political alliance and had a shitty loveless marriage, that being our bittersweet ending?

[Lord Ben]

Yeah, I'm rooting for Jon to pull Val out of the tower and thus prove to her his strength.

In the end I think Jon will be content ruling in the North and Dany will just want her Red door and lemon tree.   I doubt they'll end up together, too different.

Edited by Lord Ben, 08 June 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Lord Ben]

I mean, Jon is sacrificing nearly everything to try and save the realm of men and Dany is trying to invade a nation she's never been too because she was told it's her birthright.... why would Jon want that?

[nothatso]

Lord Ben, on 08 June 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

I mean, Jon is sacrificing nearly everything to try and save the realm of men and Dany is trying to invade a nation she's never been too because she was told it's her birthright.... why would Jon want that?

Not saying I want this to happen, but he could totally pull a "Dune". i.e. Jon is the "Paul" of this story, he falls in love and has children with one woman from a less "civilized" society (Ygritte/Val?) who dies, in the case of Dune, from childbirth. He then marries the princess (Dany?) in a loveless political marriage. The details could of course be changed, I think it might even make sense if the first woman didn't die, but Jon still chose to marry the second to show he learned from the mistakes of Robb and the like. If Martin really wanted he could find a way for it to make sense, so it doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Edited by nothatso, 08 June 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Thucydides Battuta, on 08 June 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Is Jon and Dany getting together really that sappy, after all this is fantasy.  I kind of like the fact that you feel like you reading historical fiction with this element of fantasy descending upon it and dicking up everyones plans. "Wow this must be what it was like to live in medieval times ... what's that you say, a human shadow pulled itself out of her snatch?" ... Also, would it be that sappy if they got together as a political alliance and had a shitty loveless marriage, that being our bittersweet ending?

The sappiness isn't them marrying for political reason, it's this strange idea that they will meet and immediately fall hopelessly in love.  Jon isn't the type of man Dany finds attractive and Dany isn't the type of woman Jon finds attractive.  It doesn't make sense, thus the shipping theory is sappy and ridiculous.

I could see their union as a loveless, political marriage being bittersweet.  There could be a lot of comparisons to be drawn from Rhaegar and Elia's marriage.  Elia had difficulties with bearing children and was told she couldn't bear another child after Aegon.  Supposedly Dany is barren or will have difficulties bearing children.  Jon meets a woman at a tourney that he falls for, steals her away to some fort on the wall.  War breaks out and history is repeated.  Bittersweet.  But I still think it's unlikely they'd end up together.

[Silver Spearwife]

Dr. Pepper, on 08 June 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

I could see their union as a loveless, political marriage being bittersweet.  There could be a lot of comparisons to be drawn from Rhaegar and Elia's marriage.  Elia had difficulties with bearing children and was told she couldn't bear another child after Aegon.  Supposedly Dany is barren or will have difficulties bearing children.  Jon meets a woman at a tourney that he falls for, steals her away to some fort on the wall.  War breaks out and history is repeated.  Bittersweet.  But I still think it's unlikely they'd end up together.

I don't think Jon would do that. After all he's been through, he understands duty better than that, I think. But I do think the loveless political marriage is the way that Dany and Jon would end up, if that's where their story is going. Sounds like the sort of thing Martin would do.

[Dr. Pepper]

Silver Spearwife, on 08 June 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

I don't think Jon would do that. After all he's been through, he understands duty better than that, I think. But I do think the loveless political marriage is the way that Dany and Jon would end up, if that's where their story is going. Sounds like the sort of thing Martin would do.

Nearly every character described as dutiful and honorable has dishonored themselves or shirked their duty in some way or another and most of it has been for love.  It's a strong emotion.  Ned lied for 14 years and then lied again for love of his daughter, Robb broke his betrothal with the Freys for love of another woman, Jaime humped his sister for two decades and pushed a boy out a window for love (I'll admit that his reputation for duty and honor is debatable), Rhaegar spirited away Lyanna, Cat acted rashly on a number of occasions out of love for her children, Sansa revealed Ned's plans out of love for Joffrey, Dany put the peace of the city of Meereen in jeopardy over love of children, Hoster forced an abortion on his daughter.  Love isn't the only strong emotion that leads people to act rashly.  There's also vengeance, anger, fear or quest for power, also strong emotions.  Stannis killed his own brother with a shadow baby, Davos planned to kill Melisandre, Dany burned Mirri Maz Durr (this was before she ditched duty and honor in Slaver's Bay).

Just because Jon has been shown to be dutiful and honorable doesn't mean that he's immune to out-of-character behavior.  He's just as likely to fall victim to the power of strong emotion.  He already has a number of times, I think.

In any case, I don't think GRRM is going the route where Dany and Jon get married for any reason.  I was only trying to envision a scenario where that did happen and the comparisons to other loveless political marriages we've seen.  No other loveless, political marriage has quite worked out in the series.

[PatrickStormborn]

Lord Ben, on 08 June 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

When they say "when your womb will quicken again" does that mean menstruate though?

Dany didn't stop menstruating after she became infertile. "When your womb quickens" means "when you get pregnant". It appears that Dany was pregnant, but she did not "bear a living child", so the prophecy is not fulfilled.

[Bushido]

How can you say Daenerys have a type of men? Or Jon? In Jon's life there is only Ygritte,Dany was married to Drogo (no choice,no type) and chose Daario (because of his blue eyes that under certain light resemble purple).
What about Rhaegar and Lyanna? Are they sappy too?

[Silver Spearwife]

@Dr. Pepper: Well, I don't know. Not to say that people don't do stupid things for love, and it's not that I don't think Jon is capable of that kind of stupidity (he is only sixteen), but that just seems like it's on the very far side of the spectrum.

Bushido, on 09 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

How can you say Daenerys have a type of men? Or Jon? In Jon's life there is only Ygritte,Dany was married to Drogo (no choice,no type) and chose Daario (because of his blue eyes that under certain light resemble purple).
What about Rhaegar and Lyanna? Are they sappy too?

She may not have chosen Drogo but that didn't stop her from loving him. She's definitely attracted to the wild, outrageous live-in-the-moment commander types. For all we know, maybe that's because she's attracted to someone for the sole virtue of reminding her of Drogo. As for Jon - he didn't really choose Ygritte either (she chose him), so I suppose you have a point there.

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna. Well, I'm not entirely sure where you're going with that, but if we go by the story that two teenagers in love ran off to a place called "The Tower of Joy" then yes, I'd call that a little sappy.

[Bushido]

Falling in love and growing into love are very different situations. I was a big Drogo/Dany fan,but I could see the holes in their relation.

Rhaegar wasn't teen,he was 23/4 and you can't speak of teenhood in asoiaf since they don't have adolescence. They are either a child or young man/woman.
GRRM is has knack and taste for big,fated love stories. It is a fair world,actually,where hero boy get hero girl. Not because they are heroes,but equal. And Daenerys(a very romantic person) falling for Jon,a northman,just like Rhaegar for his northwoman,is very probable. There are no sappy love stories by itself,only sappy writing. And that's not GRRM.

And wasn't it Rhaegar who named the tower? For a melancholy guy to name it tower of joy... You have to give credit there.

Edited by Bushido, 09 June 2012 - 08:20 AM.