71 replies to this topic

[Bushido]

Apple Martini, on 09 June 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Dragons = Targaryens in the same way that Wolves = Starks. I recall multiple Targaryens — true or not, acknowledged or not — in that book. So the excuse that "A Time for Wolves" is too Stark-centric when the other titles haven't been house-centric is baseless, considering the title of the last book.

Also ... evoke.

Up to the ADwD there is only one Dragon.

Also ... evoke. - Really,you getting your point through by trying to insult me ?  What am I to do,to respond that I am quote amazed that you caught the mistake,considering you username?
Troll. Get a life.

[Which Tyler]

I feel that A Dream Of Spring is a bit spoiler-y.

Winter is related to the White Walkers; and therefore, so are the un-natural seasons of Westeros.
I'd suggest that The Winds of Winter suggests that the White Walkers are going be in the ascendency, whilst A Dream Of Spring suggests that they're being beaten back; possibly permanently

[Apple Martini]

Bushido, on 09 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Up to the ADwD there is only one Dragon.

Also ... evoke. - Really,you getting your point through by trying to insult me ?  What am I to do,to respond that I am quote amazed that you caught the mistake,considering you username?
Troll. Get a life.

And in ADWD there are multiple dragons, literally and figuratively, and they all go back to the Targaryens, just like wolves go back to the Starks. So again, for the third (and last) time, if "A Time for Wolves" can't work because it's too Stark-centric, then "A Dance With Dragons" shouldn't have been used because it was too Targaryen-centric.

I am not a troll, thanks. If you take being corrected as the same as being insulted, that's your issue, not mine.

Edited by Apple Martini, 09 June 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Bushido]

Yes,and by being more than one dragon,ithe associations pass beyond Daenerys. And while with wolves,it always breaks down on the Starks.

Oh,great,then. So you won't find malicious my correction to you. Look up invoke. Thanks,as well.

[Apple Martini]

Bushido, on 09 June 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Yes,and by being more than one dragon,ithe associations pass beyond Daenerys. And while with wolves,it always breaks down on the Starks.

I have no idea what you're even trying to say. Someone said that "A Time for Wolves" wouldn't work because it's too house-centric. I just said that by that logic, "A Dance With Dragons" shouldn't have been used either, because dragons are to Targs but wolves are to Starks.

Quote

Oh,great,then. So you won't find malicious my correction to you. Look up invoke. Thanks,as well.

The correct word for what you seemed to mean was evoke. Not invoke.

Invoke: To call on or appeal to.
Evoke: To bring to mind.

"The title doesn't bring Daenerys to mind" makes sense. "The titles calls on or appeals to Daenerys" does not. It's evoke.

[RoamingRonin]

Guys: stop splitting hairs.

Which Tyler, on 09 June 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I feel that A Dream Of Spring is a bit spoiler-y.

Winter is related to the White Walkers; and therefore, so are the un-natural seasons of Westeros.
I'd suggest that The Winds of Winter suggests that the White Walkers are going be in the ascendency, whilst A Dream Of Spring suggests that they're being beaten back; possibly permanently

You could argue that the Winds of Winter is a spoiler-y too for the same reasons. We've been told over and over winter is coming but it's not until book 5 that it actually shows up. The Winds of Winter suggests winter DID show up. Dream of Spring just implies hope spring will come to replace winter, not that it definitely will come.

Edited by RoamingRonin, 09 June 2012 - 11:22 AM.

[Arkash]

A Dream of Spring is, imo the best title of the seven books...

[Pearlthegirl]

Wolves don't invoke or evoke....they killfolk! So do Dragons! Hodor I say, hoDOR....

[Lost Direwolf]

(My first post)
First I agree with most folks a Time for Wolves would be too much directly pointing at the rebirth of the Stark Power. Now A Dream of Spring could have two meanings one after months and months of war with the Others folks are dreaming of spring or it could mean the southern lords are dreaming of spring due to the Rise of the Stark House again. In my opionion Winter is for the Starks, so the enemy of the Starks would be dreaming of spring.

[Night Gathers]

Have a feeling GRRM will change the title of The Winds of Winter to Dancing in Mereen.

[Bushido]

Apple Martini, on 09 June 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I have no idea what you're even trying to say. Someone said that "A Time for Wolves" wouldn't work because it's too house-centric. I just said that by that logic, "A Dance With Dragons" shouldn't have been used either, because dragons are to Targs but wolves are to Starks.



The correct word for what you seemed to mean was evoke. Not invoke.

Invoke: To call on or appeal to.
Evoke: To bring to mind.

"The title doesn't bring Daenerys to mind" makes sense. "The titles calls on or appeals to Daenerys" does not. It's evoke.

I said that A time for Wolves is Stark-centric. And you said by the means of same logic A dance with Dragons shouldn't be used either. To which I replied that up that moment there is only one Dragon (Daenerys) Using A Dance with Dragon - yes that would be house-centric. A Dance with Dragons,however isn't.(we don't know that there are more Targs,pre-publishing,and by speculating we move away from Daenerys) God is in the small details. A writer usually is good at them.All you have to do is read.


to invoke = to summon A verb specifically used in literature to describe an action of summoning where by using allegories,or pre-determind patterns one summons a character,notion etc. Which was my intention,hadn't I made a typing mistake.

[Stormcloak]

Falrinn, on 09 June 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

A Time for Wolves was probably way too Stark-centric for what GRRM is actually planning.
Even though the Starks will probably play an important role in the book, chances are plenty of other charters do as well.  A Time for Wolves would imply that only the Starks are important.  
What if, for example, the person most responsible for ending the war with the Others isn't a Stark?  Then it isn't really "a time for wolves" at all now is it?
It's just very difficult to judge the merits of a title for a book we know almost nothing about.

Sure, although personally I think the North having to gather it's strength again to deal with the threat beyond the wall is one of the few certainties for the rest of the series and I think it will take a Stark to rally the north.
If I'm right about that then I think A Time for Wolves would be the perfect title. Sure other characters are going to be important but a title can never encompass the whole book and the Starks are at the core of the series. Besides A Time for Wolves, Dragons, Lions, Stags, Krakens, Roses, Falcons, Hounds and the Sun doesn't have the same ring to it

Apple Martini, on 09 June 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I have no idea what you're even trying to say. Someone said that "A Time for Wolves" wouldn't work because it's too house-centric. I just said that by that logic, "A Dance With Dragons" shouldn't have been used either, because dragons are to Targs but wolves are to Starks.

Yeah, obviously A Time for Wolves evokes the Starks but I did take A Dance with Dragons as evoking Daenerys and her dragons so I don't really see the difference, it seems a bit pedantic to say it isn't a reference to her part of the story just because it's 'dragons' rather than 'dragon'. Daenerys has dragons and by the end of Dance there is more than one Targaryen anyways.

I did mention other things the title could refer to besides the Starks though:

richardpale, on 09 June 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

I took it as a reference to winter where the lone wolf dies and the pack survives, suggesting the chaos in the Seven Kingdoms by this point where a pack of wolves would thrive like Nymeria's has in the Riverlands, I love that it implies House Stark would recover and be pivotal to the story again before the series is over and all that aside it's just a damn cool title.

Which Tyler, on 09 June 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I feel that A Dream Of Spring is a bit spoiler-y.

Winter is related to the White Walkers; and therefore, so are the un-natural seasons of Westeros.
I'd suggest that The Winds of Winter suggests that the White Walkers are going be in the ascendency, whilst A Dream Of Spring suggests that they're being beaten back; possibly permanently

I agree with this too although I don't think it's a bad thing and it applies to A Time for Wolves as well. I think most good titles hint at something about the story.

Edited by richardpale, 10 June 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Sapphire]

I like A Time for Wolves. It has this air of North/Starks assemble - it's game time!

Then again I don't care if they end up calling it Gimme all ur Moneys so long as it's in my hands within the first half of the decade.

[Trinket2]

I didn't realize they had changed, I just thought they were different books. I'm glad they did though, I feel like A time for wolves would put too much focus on the Starks. I like A dream of spring much better.

A time for wolves would be fine if it wasn't the LAST book. I don't know if A time for wolves is spoiler-y, but it certainly sounds like it is and it hints at the Starks being restored to power (which is also an ending I do not want).
A dream of spring is more ambiguous and could mean a dream of spring for Westeros rather than for one house in particular.

Edited by Trinket2, 10 June 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[Dracarya]

I can't say I much care what the title is, or whether it evokes or invokes anything, so long as we get the damn books

[Queen of Spades]

Bushido, on 09 June 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I said that A time for Wolves is Stark-centric. And you said by the means of same logic A dance with Dragons shouldn't be used either. To which I replied that up that moment there is only one Dragon (Daenerys) Using A Dance with Dragon - yes that would be house-centric. A Dance with Dragons,however isn't.(we don't know that there are more Targs,pre-publishing,and by speculating we move away from Daenerys)

Jeez, there were three actual dragons before ADWD... all of them connected to the Targaryen storyline !
But no, that was not House-oriented at all, when I bought the book I was certain there would be no Targaryen references in it, it came as a huge surprise !

[The Drunkard]

I prefer the current title plan. ATFW just seems like it's telling me that "Starks are gonna win at everything, be prepared" and I'm not a fan of that sort of thinking. Like if ASOS was changed to 'A Time For Lions', I wouldn't be too happy.

[Bushido]

Queen of Spades, on 10 June 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

Jeez, there were three actual dragons before ADWD... all of them connected to the Targaryen storyline !
But no, that was not House-oriented at all, when I bought the book I was certain there would be no Targaryen references in it, it came as a huge surprise !

Yeah,there were actual dragons. But,only one Dragon. Daenerys. Do read the post before replying...

[Kyle Baratheon]

I think A Dream of Spring is a much more appropriate title. Though maybe the original title gives us a bit of a hint of... i dunno.. revenge?

Or it may have something to do with Nymeria's wolfpack.

[Queen of Spades]

Bushido, on 10 June 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yeah,there were actual dragons. But,only one Dragon. Daenerys. Do read the post before replying...

So ?
You were arguing that somehow "A Dance with Dragons" was not a Targaryen-oriented title because it was not "A Dance with Dragon".
Whether it was "A Dance with Dany, Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion" or "A Dance with Dany and (possibly fake) Aegon", it's still Targaryen-oriented.


Actually, "A Time for Wolves" would be less House-oriented than "A Dance with Dragons" since we have already seen wolves without any connection to Starks (wild wolves, warged (non-dire)wolves...), when we have never seen dragons with no connection to Targaryens.

Edited by Queen of Spades, 10 June 2012 - 08:23 AM.