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"I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of war."


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#101 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:22 AM

View PostWinter, on 11 June 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Grey Worm seems to see himself as a free man:

Quote

When His Grace had tried to put them under the command of a cousin, as he had the Brazen Beasts, Grey Worm had informed the king that they were free men who took commands only from their mother


I'm looking at actions, not words. Words are wind, as they say. Grey Worm continues to behave as a slave.  He's ordered by Dany to no longer call himself a slave, but to call himself a free man.  He does this.  Yet he continues to refer to himself in the third person, a way the slaves commonly refer to themselves.

#102 Malgarroth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:28 AM

View PostLyanna Stark, on 11 June 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

To be sure. Without ambition as part of her driving force I doubt she would have got out of the Red Waste either.

However this often seems to be something she gets lampooned for, while people like Tyrion, Tywin and Asha get away without complaint. To be accepted as a Queen she somehow needs to not want it, to have a low opinion of her own intellect and capability and overall to be less proud in herself and her heritage. It's also somewhat strange that people go on and on about her making mistakes, as if the other characters don't. Even the high and mighty like Tywin Lannister and Littlefinger make mistakes. Even Tyrion superbrain makes mistakes. Dany has enormous fortitude but only very little training and mentoring, and dare I say, some fairly lacking advisors.

To start: I like Daenerys, I mean what's not to like? She's a silver-haired Greek Godess with dragons.

But.

She acts like the teenaged girl that she is much of the time, especially in ADWD.

Once she amassed her armies she should've been marching East (because that's apparently how she's to get to the West.) which would've given Drogon, Vserion and Rhaegal ample time to grow. I doubt she'd have much trouble on the Demon's Road with those three watching over her.

So that was her first mistake.

Marrying Hizdahr was another massive fuckup. She should've either totally quit Mereen with her (by this time) fully grown dragons, or come down on the SoTH like a friggin' hammer.

And fucking Daario is just... I mean... come on, what the fuck, Dany?

Hell, the only two major things she got right in ADWD were jumping on Drogon's back and telling Martell to GTFO. (If we, just for a moment, run with my notion that he was the Mummer's Dragon)

She is only a young girl and she knows less than a hedge knight about the ways of war. The thing that grates on people is the fact that she says this with the intention of being sarcastic. She really does think she's superior to all these war veterans stood around her 24/7.

I think there's more of Viserys in her than she wants to believe.

EDIT:

Forgot why I quoted.

Yes, the other characters make mistakes (none more so than Robb) but when they do fuck up at least they recognize it and attempt some damage control (which is what, in the end, killed Robb, going to the Twins to make peace)
Daenerys screws up and assumes its all part of some divine plan. She spends way too much time dwelling on prophecy.

Edited by Malgarroth, 11 June 2012 - 11:45 AM.


#103 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:52 AM

View PostMalgarroth, on 11 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:


And fucking Daario is just... I mean... come on, what the fuck, Dany?


I really do not get why any reader is concerned about who Dany sleeps with.  She's an adult (adult in the series is determined by sexual maturation).  She's exercising her freedom to choose who enters her bed.  In my opinion, she can sleep with whomever the hell she wants.

#104 Malgarroth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:58 AM

View PostDr. Pepper, on 11 June 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I really do not get why any reader is concerned about who Dany sleeps with.  She's an adult (adult in the series is determined by sexual maturation).  She's exercising her freedom to choose who enters her bed.  In my opinion, she can sleep with whomever the hell she wants.

Except he obviously doesn't give an ounce of shit about her. It's not about what she does with her "sexual freedom", of which she has none as a monarch and last scion of a dynasty (from a Westerosi social standpoint). She can fuck Stannis Baratheon and the hilt of his sword, while dancing around Westeros with a Lightbringer penis for all I care. My point is that Daario is obviously playing her, and she KNOWS this, yet still she persists.

I'm concerned because I've come to care about the character. Isn't that the point?

Edited by Malgarroth, 11 June 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#105 atia-

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:03 PM

I think it's fair to care who Dany sleeps with.  I mean, it's not like these are real people and we shouldn't "pry" into their sex lives.  lol.  Daario is a creep, but when I was a teenager my taste in men was really bad too :stunned:

#106 Malgarroth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:09 PM

View Posthk47, on 11 June 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

{Statement} I think it's fair to care who Dany sleeps with.  
{Clarification} I mean, it's not like these are real people and we shouldn't "pry" into their sex lives.  lol.  
{Statement} Daario is a creep,
{Depressing Admission}but when I was a teenager my taste in men was really bad too :stunned:

Do try to stay in character HK :P


(I love KoTOR XD)

Edited by Malgarroth, 11 June 2012 - 12:10 PM.


#107 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:20 PM

View PostThe_Spanish_Inquisition, on 10 June 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Yeah, but when you're a little kid trying to survive a war, you're bound to make some stupid decisions that seem pretty good at the time. That's the point of being a kid, honestly. I know that legally speaking, from a Westerosi POV, she's an adult, but we know better.
Meh...I don't know...I feel like in Westeros (assuming they would honor her claim) the realm would be ruled by a regent until she got to be about 16 or so.  I'm fuzzy on exactly how old she is but I still put her at around 15 at the end of ADWD and she was certainly younger than that when she assumed the crown.

#108 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostMalgarroth, on 11 June 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Except he obviously doesn't give an ounce of shit about her. It's not about what she does with her "sexual freedom", of which she has none as a monarch and last scion of a dynasty (from a Westerosi social standpoint). She can fuck Stannis Baratheon and the hilt of his sword, while dancing around Westeros with a Lightbringer penis for all I care. My point is that Daario is obviously playing her, and she KNOWS this, yet still she persists.

I'm concerned because I've come to care about the character. Isn't that the point?

She has sexual freedom as she's queen in her own right, not queen consort.  At the time, she was unmarried and had made no vows of celibacy.  She's aware that Daario does not love her, which is better than being blind and unaware.  (I think it's debatable whether or not Daario cared for her, but that's a whole different discussion).  I care about Dany as a character as well, which means I care enough to defend the choices she makes with her body.

#109 effervesce

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:32 PM

View PostDr. Pepper, on 11 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

I care about Dany as a character as well, which means I care enough to defend the choices she makes with her body.

It's possible to defend someone's right to do something while also questioning how bright it is. For instance, I think people have the right to do hard drugs, but I certainly wouldn't endorse it.

#110 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:38 PM

View Posteffervesce, on 11 June 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

It's possible to defend someone's right to do something while also questioning how bright it is. For instance, I think people have the right to do hard drugs, but I certainly wouldn't endorse it.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think sleeping with Daario was unwise.  Like I said, she was unmarried and had made no vows of celibacy.  She was well aware that her feelings for him were unlikely to be returned.  I would think differently if she continued to sleep with him after her marriage vows and if she was completely blind to his intentions.

#111 Malgarroth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:38 PM

View PostDr. Pepper, on 11 June 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

She has sexual freedom as she's queen in her own right, not queen consort.  At the time, she was unmarried and had made no vows of celibacy.  She's aware that Daario does not love her, which is better than being blind and unaware.  (I think it's debatable whether or not Daario cared for her, but that's a whole different discussion).  I care about Dany as a character as well, which means I care enough to defend the choices she makes with her body.

I dunno, I think I have a bit of an older brother complex with Dany, I just think that a relationship based off of "ooh, he's so nasty and badass" is a terrible idea. I know modern standards don't apply to ASoIAF but I can't defend a 15 year-old's decision to sleep with that piece of shit.


Another point that just occurred to me: A fair few people (let's face it, overly-defensive women mostly) seem to be under the assumption that Daenerys gets shit from the fanbase for being a woman; being exposed to double standards in light of that fact.

I disagree.

Let's take another female character and put her in Daenerys' position: Arya.

Do you honestly think that Arya would have made these same mistakes? Granted, she would make her own mistakes, but of Dany's magnitude? Somehow I doubt it.

Then again if Arya was in Dany's shoes at the beginning of AGoT (and let's age her up to 13 to match Dany at that time) she wouldn't have the dragons. She'd have bitten Drogo's cock off and run for the hills leaving the eggs behind.

Hmm, just general musings, but you see my point.

Edited by Malgarroth, 11 June 2012 - 12:46 PM.


#112 PatrickStormborn

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:50 PM

View PostMalgarroth, on 11 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Then again if Arya was in Dany's shoes at the beginning of AGoT (and let's age her up to 13 to match Dany at that time) she wouldn't have the dragons. She'd have bitten Drogo's cock off and run for the hills leaving the eggs behind.

She would have been chased by Drogo's khalasar and brought right back, and her fate would have been much worse than Dany's.

Sometimes stoicism is the greatest form of strength.

#113 Nymeria's

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:53 PM

Dany is too soft hearted. She is always trying to save everyone. She has to save herself first and she doesn't know how to do that yet. She has to find the balance between the child and the Queen.

I think she's extraordinary. Once she figures out those dragons then nothing can save Westeros from her. She just has to get through those awkward teenage years where she thinks she know everything and is better than everyone else. She shouldn't have sent Jorah away. That was a huge mistake; I mean she put up with Viserys for all those years and she couldn't forgive Jorah for one act of indiscretion over the 99 other ways he guided her correctly? He more than made up for his stupidity. Thank god for Barristan because Daario alone would get her killed.

#114 Malgarroth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostPatrickStormborn, on 11 June 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

She would have been chased by Drogo's khalasar and brought right back, and her fate would have been much worse than Dany's.

Sometimes stoicism is the greatest form of strength.

Indeed. I suspect Sansa would have just lain there and taken it, but I seriously doubt she's have fallen for Drogo enough to try to bring him back, or even had his wound "taken care of"

So he'd likely be alive, still no dragons.

#115 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:54 PM

View PostMalgarroth, on 11 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

A fair few people (let's face it, overly-defensive women mostly)

I can no longer take you seriously.

#116 Malgarroth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostDr. Pepper, on 11 June 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

I can no longer take you seriously.

Oh lord! He stated that some women are overly-defensive, string him up!

Sorry if I believe that seeing insult where there is none constitutes being overly-defensive.

Edited by Malgarroth, 11 June 2012 - 01:02 PM.


#117 Caelestis

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:06 PM

While Daenerys definitely makes mistakes (most of them in ADwD), I'm afraid I have to come to her defense here.

Now eventhough I may be a fan of her, I would never say that Daenerys is some tactical mastermind. Nonetheless, considering her youth and inexperience, the chances of her suffering from Targaryen madness, general Targaryen hubris, and the fact that she's a girl (not that women are inferior, but as a woman in such a male-dominated world, she would've had even less of a chance of being taught any military strategy than Viserys), Daenerys has handled herself and the people she's responsible for remarkably well prior to ruling Meereen.

Her instinctive decision regarding Drogo's funeral pyre and the dragon eggs is the same kind of decision that would've been seen as madness, but she trusted her feelings and it paid off. She led her people out of the Red Waste, survived Qarth, but rather than blindly trusting Illyrio, Dany was smart enough to take Jorah's advice and build up an army of her own. Granted, trusting Illyrio and heading back to Pentos immediately would've probably been even more advantageous, but given Illyrio's motives and intentions are still uncertain (even to us readers), jumping in bed with 'Aegon' (who probably isn't legitimate, Blackfyre or no) might not have been something Dany would want.

Then we come to Astapor and that seems to be the first major point of contention for fans: was it ultimately a smart move to turn on the slavers, free the Unsullied and, generally, 'take what is hers with fire and blood?' (if I may borrow the phrase) Well, it seems to depend on what exactly Dany's real goal is and this is where I believe the real issue with Daenarys lies from that point on: Daenerys doesn't know what she wants.

In my opinion, Daenerys' biggest mistake is the fact that she can't make up her mind. Does she want to go to Westeros and take the Iron Throne as the last Targaryen (for as far as she knows)? Or does she want to save the suffering people around her from slavery?

So many people may decry her character for wasting so much time in Slaver's Bay, trying to end slavery, but try and put yourself in the position of a slave and you can't help but argue that, even if she's made mistakes trying to change the system, the fact that she's doing so at all is a noble thing. One may argue that this is simply the way of the world when it comes to Essos, but while there's a fine line to tread when it comes to interfering with differing cultures, I highly doubt anyone on these forums would actually support slavery. You need only look at how Tyrion, Penny and Jorah ended up in the same situation to know that anyone could be unlucky enough to end up as a slave in Essos. If slavery was never abolished in the US, would that somehow make it morally right? Of course not. Another option would be that slaves should stand up for themselves, but until Daenerys came along, they had no chance of doing so.

Considering that Daenerys has basically been sold off by her own brother, it was almost inevitable that she would end up sympathising with slaves and would feel like a hypocrit for honestly buying the Unsullied. This way, she also gathered a huge popular following that might actually work out for the best for her in the end, such as the potential uprising in Volantis: what she lost among the elite of Essos, she gained in the support of the people, which is never a small factor when it comes to winning wars.

Dany's problem, however, is that she tries to please everyone. Or rather, she keeps doing what she thinks will be for the best to as many of her people as possible, something that any caring ruler would intuitively believe to be the 'right' course of action.

But by trying to have everything and refusing to make sacrifices, Dany can't get anything done and, ironically, rather than doing what's right, she does what's worst.

When Daenerys decided to steal the Unsullied, she should have immediately planned ahead and decide what she was going to do: was she going to become a freedom-fighter or would she steal the army simply to take Westeros?

In the case of the former, Dany didn't nearly go far enough. She should've sacked every city in Slaver's Bay she came across, kill or scatter the slavers and build up momentum until her movement was almost unstoppable. If she still chose to stay in Meereen, Dany should've taken up some of Daario or the Shavepate's suggestions and show the Meereenese nobility that she meant business: preferably, Dany should've fed either the nobles she suspected to be working with the Harpy or the hostages to her dragons, solving two birds with one stone - she would've instilled fear in everyone thinking of opposing her and kept the dragons loyal to her.

In the case of the latter, she should've taken the Unsullied, not because she declared them free, but simply because she was willing to take what was hers, and continue on her way to Westeros. She would've shown up with three dragons and 8,000 Unsullied on Illyrio's doorstep, leaving her to choose freely whether to side with 'Aegon' or not.

I guess my ultimate point is: Daenerys' failures at Slaver's Bay are not the result of stupidity, but indecision. She wasn't willing to do what, deep down, she knew was necessary. Was being the keyword of that sentence. It seems that Daenerys has made her choice at last at the end of ADwD and since Drogon appears to submit to her at last, I wouldn't want to be Khal Jaqo right now. Or anyone that tries to stand in Dany's way, actually. She has taken the Targaryen words to heart and realised that she can only get what she wants, both the end of slavery AND the Iron Throne, through fire and blood.

Edited by Caelestis, 11 June 2012 - 01:09 PM.


#118 Lummel

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

View PostNymeria, on 11 June 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

...She shouldn't have sent Jorah away. That was a huge mistake; I mean she put up with Viserys for all those years and she couldn't forgive Jorah for one act of indiscretion over the 99 other ways he guided her correctly? ...
I can't see Jorah Mormont as a good influence.  This is the man who broke the laws and customs of Westeros because he was love sick and who has transferred his sexual obsession from his ex-wife to Dany which didn't prevent him from from betraying her to Varys over a period of time.

Did he give her any good advice apart from to buy a slave army?

#119 Ice Turtle

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

View PostPatrickStormborn, on 11 June 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

She would have been chased by Drogo's khalasar and brought right back, and her fate would have been much worse than Dany's.

Sometimes stoicism is the greatest form of strength.

Is surviving always a victory? Look at Reek/Theon. And if she somehow managed to kill Drogo th rest of khalasar would be probably too busy fighting among themselves to chase her. Though it would never even come to marriage as there is no chance Arya would tolerate Viserys' bulling.
Anyway probably the more interesting question is what Sansa would have done.

#120 effervesce

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:11 PM

View PostLummel, on 11 June 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Did he give her any good advice apart from to buy a slave army?

He helped her deal with the Dothraki. She probably would have been traumatized by that whole experience without him.