442 replies to this topic

[David Selig]

Dolorous Ali, on 11 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Dany knows her brother was a piece of shit, and yet she still believes everything he said and refuses to believe anything else.

Not true at all. For example, when Jorah told her that despite Vyserys's claims, the small folk in Westeros don't give a damn who's King and won't help his claim, she realised Jorah is right and Viserys wrong. There are plenty of other examples too.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

danm_999, on 11 June 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Let's not get carried away here.

No, to get carried away would be saying she's an Essos political master, as opposed to a decent politician.
She took out Slaver's bay! Can anyone in history say the same?

PatrickStormborn, on 11 June 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

You completely missed my point, I'm afraid. I was simply showing the poster I quoted that different people have different strengths. Arya wasted her first two kills, but she made up for it with the third; in contrast, Dany wouldn't have named Jaqen, but she would have named Tywin and Gregor (which actually would have achieved more in the long-run than naming Jaqen and freeing the "Stark" men). Arya was undoubtedly stupid in not naming Tywin and Gregor -- which I'm sure she is aware of. That is not the same as me calling her stupid or blaming her.

As much as i agree with your general post and I do hate to disagree with "non Dany haters" (there are so few) I gotta defend Arya.
Arya's first kill was useless, but she didnt really belive him so it's ok
Her 2nd kill was to save her legs from being torn off
And she had to escape right then and there before the Goat came to also rip her legs off,
In hindsight Tywin would have been a good call, but in even more hindsight if Tywin were to die then BBW would be a Stannis victory and Sansa would be minus a head

Edited by Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, 11 June 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[butterbumps!]

@ Stanmore + M.Grumkin

What I'm saying about Dany's military acumen is not that she has none, but that she is not the mastermind she was made out to be.  She has strong tactical decisions, but tactics and battles do not win the war.  She has power in Slaver's Bay, but NOT control, and as such, she is not really able to lead them.   To get into why I don't believe the manner of Dracarys transcends "clever" tactic to strategy is because this move has almost completely alienated her from most forms of support, where as if she had been seen as trustworthy she could have those alliance benefits.  There's a big difference between tactics and strategy, and all I'm trying to say is that Dany's skill here is in tactics, but nice tactics are not commensurate to mastermind or ruling ability.  

A mastermind, or even just a good strategist, knows what they are trying to achieve.  Dany does not.  She displays clever snippets that are not part of an overall plan, and as such, she is not a mastermind-architect.

Edited by butterbumps!, 11 June 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Dr. Pepper]

butterbumps!, on 11 June 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

   Depending on what Dany wants to do (stay in Meereen, start her own empire or take the Iron Throne), the Dracarys move you spoke of may not have been the brilliant tactic it seems.

This is why I wish we had a Slaver's Bay POV or at least more background on their customs apart from slavery.  The dracarys move has always reminded me of the 'mayhaps' move by the Freys.  When Frey invoked mayhaps and broke one of the most sacred social laws it shattered any respect and trust he may have had.  Was there a similar sacred cultural law (a law believed to be proclaimed by the gods) that Dany broke with dracarys?  Maybe a guest law or a business law?

Stanmore, on 11 June 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Taking Astapor by suprise, or sneaking troops into Meereen etc. She's been cunning and devious, she's listened to her advisors and she's inspired her troops.

I'm not disagreeing with your claim that Dany has made clever military choices.  I disagree that she's inspired her troops.  The bulk of her troops consist of slaves who are trained for years to feel nothing and think nothing except to follow orders.  There's no inspiration there.  Other than the Unsullied, she's got the khalasar with few fighting men led by her blood riders who are sworn to follow her and then sellsword companies who are in it for the money, not the glory and they have proven they will switch sides depending on which way the tide blows.  I think the only one whos who might be inspired are Barristan and Daario and his Stormcrows.

[PatrickStormborn]

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, on 11 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

As much as i agree with your general post and I do hate to disagree with "non Dany haters" (there are so few) I gotta defend Arya.
Arya's first kill was useless, but she didnt really belive him so it's ok
Her 2nd kill was to save her legs from being torn off
And she had to escape right then and there before the Goat came to also rip her legs off,
In hindsight Tywin would have been a good call, but in even more hindsight if Tywin were to die then BBW would be a Stannis victory and Sansa would be minus a head

Haha it's fine. I'm not trying to criticise Arya, I was just trying to show that she made mistakes when choosing her three kills. So it can hardly be used to discredit Dany.

[Feather Crystal]

Daenerys statement is a common tactic that is used by others in the ASOIAF series and in the Dunk and Egg series. It's for protection and advantage. In The Sworn Sword, Lady Rohanne Webber of Coldmoat encourages her nickname and sigil, "the Red Widow" for protection since she is very short, and as she tells Ser Duncan the Tall regarding the pissing matches between lords, "A woman must needs piss twice as hard, if she hopes to rule. And if that woman should happen to be small..." she then goes on to describe the many lords that covet her land. She hopes that by encouraging her nickname, she can scare them off with rumors that all of her husbands die.

I think the rumors of Harrenhal were deliberate for the same reasons.

Daenerys likes to play the innocent, but she is smarter than many here give her credit for.

Edited by Melisandra, 11 June 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dr. Pepper, on 11 June 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm not disagreeing with your claim that Dany has made clever military choices.  I disagree that she's inspired her troops.  The bulk of her troops consist of slaves who are trained for years to feel nothing and think nothing except to follow orders.  There's no inspiration there.  Other than the Unsullied, she's got the khalasar with few fighting men led by her blood riders who are sworn to follow her and then sellsword companies who are in it for the money, not the glory and they have proven they will switch sides depending on which way the tide blows.  I think the only one whos who might be inspired are Barristan and Daario and his Stormcrows.

I got the opposite idea from Grey Worm, to be perfectly honest. He seemed very inspired, despite being "trained for years to feel nothing". Did you also forget about the Unsullied who hired prostitutes to hug him? They do not "feel nothing".

[Winter's Knight]

The instances in which Dany uses the phrase:

ASoS

Quote

“Five hundred of your Stormcrows against ten thousand of my Unsullied,” said Dany. “I am only a young girl and do not understand the ways of war, yet these odds seem poor to me.”


“It is true that I am only a young girl, and do not know the ways of war. Explain to me how you propose to defeat ten thousand Unsullied with your five hundred. Innocent as I am, these odds seem poor to me.”


“Just so,” she agreed. “I think we should attack from three sides. Grey Worm, your Unsullied shall strike at them from right and left, while my kos lead my horse in wedge for a thrust through their center. Slave soldiers will never stand before mounted Dothraki.” She smiled. “To be sure, I am only a young girl and know little of war. What do you think, my lords?”

From ADwD

Quote

“Your Magnificence,” whispered Reznak mo Reznak in her ear, “it is customary for the city to claim one-tenth of all the profits from the fighting pits, after expenses, as a tax. That coin might be put to many noble uses.”
“It might ... though if we were to reopen the pits, we should take our tenth before expenses. I am only a young girl and know little of such matters, but I dwelt with Xaro Xhoan Daxos long enough to learn that much."


“I am only a young girl and know little of such things, but older, wiser men tell me that to hold Meereen I must control its hinterlands, all the land west of Lhazar as far south as the Yunkish hills.”


"I may be a young girl, but I am not so foolish as to wed a man who finds a fruit platter more enticing than my breast. I saw which dancers you were watching.”


“I may be a young girl innocent of war, but I am not a lamb to walk bleating into the harpy’s den. I still have my Unsullied. I have the Stormcrows and the Second Sons. I have three companies of freedmen.”

"I am only a young girl, and young girls must have their gifts,” she said lightly. “Daario, please, you must not tease me. Give it here.”


“I am only a young girl and know little of such things, but it seems to me that we want them to
be treacherous. Once, you’ll recall, I convinced the Second Sons and Stormcrows to join us.”


“I am only a young girl and know little of the ways of war,” she told Lord Ghael, “but we have heard that Astapor is starving. Let King Cleon feed his people before he leads them out to battle.” She made a gesture of dismissal. Ghael withdrew.

I like the line. I like how she uses it to mock people's pre-conceptions about her age and sex.

[Istari]

I haven't read the thread. But I want to vent my overall hatred for the line " I am but a young girl and know little of the ways of war"

[danm_999]

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, on 11 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

No, to get carried away would be saying she's an Essos political master, as opposed to a decent politician.
She took out Slaver's bay! Can anyone in history say the same?

Err, yes, the Ancient Ghiscari and then Valyria. Slaver's Bay is not that hard to conquer, it's portrayed as a decadent society. The walls in two of the major cities are crumbling for goodness sakes, because they haven't had a serious war in centuries. These are not places that are "battle hardened".

And look at what she actually does in Slaver's Bay. She beats Astapor because they hand over the entirely of their military power to her and then demand she give them one of her dragons. It's so blindingly stupid even Hodor would be able to outwit them.

Then, she fights an army of 5000 Yunkai, and manages to flip two Sellsword companies, which are notoriously unreliable, and fails to press her advantage by sacking the city. This later results in a siege of her capital in Mereen, where incidentally she does not destroy the wells surrounding to deny the Yunkai a clean water source. This indicates she has decent political and diplomatic chops, but not military genius.

Mereen is her finest hour, and it's a siege on a city whose forces Daenerys outnumber by a great margin.

That's not say she's a bad commander, but a military mastermind? She's never faced a competant army in the field, and every enemy she's fought she's outnumbered, and had better trained troops than. So no, she's not a military mastermind.

Edited by danm_999, 11 June 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 June 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I got the opposite idea from Grey Worm, to be perfectly honest. He seemed very inspired, despite being "trained for years to feel nothing". Did you also forget about the Unsullied who hired prostitutes to hug him? They do not "feel nothing".

Grey Worm decides to keep his name because it was the one he drew on the day Dany freed him-that's hardly "feling nothing".

[Ghost Rider]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 June 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I got the opposite idea from Grey Worm, to be perfectly honest. He seemed very inspired, despite being "trained for years to feel nothing". Did you also forget about the Unsullied who hired prostitutes to hug him? They do not "feel nothing".

Sheesh, you have to wonder what all the training is good for then, don't you? Are the Unsullied as good as their reputation or is it only superstition that made the poor boys victims to the merciless slavers?

[danm_999]

Ghost Rider, on 11 June 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Sheesh, you have to wonder what all the training is good for then, don't you? Are the Unsullied as good as their reputation or is it only superstition that made the poor boys victims to the merciless slavers?

You have to wonder. The slaver in Astapor claims that Unsullied feel nothing, but then later admits they don't sell them in lots of ten anymore because when they're sold in too small a quantity, they mix too much with common slaves and lose their unemotional edge.

[Dr. Pepper]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 June 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I got the opposite idea from Grey Worm, to be perfectly honest. He seemed very inspired, despite being "trained for years to feel nothing". Did you also forget about the Unsullied who hired prostitutes to hug him? They do not "feel nothing".

I didn't forget.  The feeling nothing I'm talking about is when it's directly related to orders from their master.  If the master orders the Unsullied not to hug whores, he wouldn't be hugging whores.

Grey Worm to me does not seem inspired.  He continues to refer to himself in the third person.  He continues to refer to her as the master to take orders.  It's not until the very end of ADWD that he grudgingly obeys Barristan and only when Selmy says that she wasn't coming back (or was it that she was missing or dead, can't recall exact thing).

[Gingerly Grumkin]

butterbumps!, on 11 June 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

@ Stanmore + M.Grumkin

What I'm saying about Dany's military acumen is not that she has none, but that she is not the mastermind she was made out to be.  She has strong tactical decisions, but tactics and battles do not win the war.  She has power in Slaver's Bay, but NOT control, and as such, she is not really able to lead them.   To get into why I don't believe the manner of Dracarys transcends "clever" tactic to strategy is because this move has almost completely alienated her from most forms of support, where as if she had been seen as trustworthy she could have the benefit of.  There's a big difference between tactics and strategy, and all I'm trying to say is that Dany's skill here is in tactics, but nice tactics are not commensurate to mastermind or ruling ability.  

A mastermind, or even just a good strategist, knows what they are trying to achieve.  Dany does not.  She displays clever snippets that are not part of an overall plan, and as such, she is not a mastermind-architect.

Does anyone, short of us pro-Dany forumers, call her a mastermind? It seems like most people in Essos and Westeros (short of Tyrion, Dornish and Goldan comp) consider herself a young girl who knows little of the ways of war.
What is the war anyway? Is it a war on slavery, or is it a war for land? If it's against slaver's I'd say she's winning and if it's for land and support I'd say she's at an impass. But I'd say it's a war for training before she reaches Westeros, in which case she's also at an impass, not losing.
There is a difference between tactics and strategy, the tactics would be gathering up her eniemes so she can strike quickly, with alcohal or Dracrays. And strategy would be attack threw the sewers and kill the remaning nobles.

danm_999, on 11 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Err, yes, the Ancient Ghiscari and then Valyria. Slaver's Bay is not that hard to conquer, it's portrayed as a decadent society. The walls in two of the major cities are crumbling for goodness sakes, because they haven't had a serious war in centuries. These are not places that are "battle hardened".

And look at what she actually does in Slaver's Bay. She beats Astapor because they hand over the entirely of their military power to her and then demand she give them one of her dragons. It's so blindingly stupid even Hodor would be able to outwit them.

Then, she fights an army of 5000 Yunkai, and manages to flip two Sellsword companies, which are notoriously unreliable, and fails to press her advantage by sacking the city. This later results in a siege of her capital in Mereen, where incidentally she does not destroy the wells surrounding to deny the Yunkai a clean water source. This indicates she has decent political and diplomatic chops, but not military genius.

Mereen is her finest hour, and it's a siege on a city whose forces Daenerys outnumber by a great margin.

That's not say she's a bad commander, but a military mastermind? She's never faced a competant army in the field, and every enemy she's fought she's outnumbered, and had better trained troops than. So no, she's not a military mastermind.

Ahh the anciant people. Like Bran the builder of the magical wall? Or that Vale girl that's tears became a waterfall? I don't belive anciant history, and even if i did... Dany's still impressive.
The Astapor people were blinded by gold, they were foolish but Dany tricked them (and it's nothing like the Freys! The buisness was done, they were back on neutral ground). Besides these slavers are slaving ass holes! They think because they can buy Unsullied that means they can buy a dragon?
As for the other two cities, I agree with

[A Time for Wolves]

Grey Worm hasn't really progressed, but then none of Dany's entourage has much personality. Except for the Western characters.

[Winter's Knight]

`

Dr. Pepper, on 11 June 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

I didn't forget.  The feeling nothing I'm talking about is when it's directly related to orders from their master.  If the master orders the Unsullied not to hug whores, he wouldn't be hugging whores.

Grey Worm to me does not seem inspired.  He continues to refer to himself in the third person.  He continues to refer to her as the master to take orders.  It's not until the very end of ADWD that he grudgingly obeys Barristan and only when Selmy says that she wasn't coming back (or was it that she was missing or dead, can't recall exact thing).

Grey Worm seems to see himself as a free man:

Quote

When His Grace had tried to put them under the command of a cousin, as he had the Brazen Beasts, Grey Worm had informed the king that they were free men who took commands only from their mother

[danm_999]

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, on 11 June 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Ahh the anciant people. Like Bran the builder of the magical wall? Or that Vale girl that's tears became a waterfall? I don't belive anciant history, and even if i did... Dany's still impressive.

You don't believe Valyria and Ghis existed...?

That's verifiable history you know.

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, on 11 June 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

The Astapor people were blinded by gold, they were foolish but Dany tricked them (and it's nothing like the Freys! The buisness was done, they were back on neutral ground). Besides these slavers are slaving ass holes! They think because they can buy Unsullied that means they can buy a dragon?

That doesn't make Daenerys a military genius, it makes her opponents a special kind of stupid.

Edited by danm_999, 11 June 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

danm_999, on 11 June 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

You don't believe Valyria and Ghis existed...?

I belive that there was a Valryian kingdom, ruled by Aegon I ancestors and I belive that it conquered much land. But most things about it are... sketchy (the doom, the fire wyrms, the first faceless man, the fact that these dragons didn't conquer more, that they never set there eyes on Westeors) But lol yea I belive they took out slaver's bay. (I just forgot, that's why I posted that Dany's the first as opposed to Dany's the first in thousands (hundreds?) of years)

danm_999, on 11 June 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

That doesn't make Daenerys a military genius, it makes her opponents a special kind of stupid.

For sure, but it makes her more then "A young gil who knows little of the ways of war"

Edited by Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, 11 June 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[danm_999]

Monsieur LeDauphin Grumkin, on 11 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

I belive that there was a Valryian kingdom, ruled by Aegon I ancestors and I belive that it conquered much land. But most things about it are... sketchy (the doom, the fire wyrms, the first faceless man, the fact that these dragons didn't conquer more, that they never set there eyes on Westeors) But lol yea I belive they took out slaver's bay. (I just forgot, that's why I posted that Dany's the first as opposed to Dany's the first in thousands (hundreds?) of years)
For sure, but it makes her more then "A young gil who knows little of the ways of war"

I never said she was. My contention was she isn't a military mastermind or genius. She hasn't faced a competant foe yet.