82 replies to this topic

[Nahlim]

Am I the only one who thinks that UnCat dying right away would be just dumb and pointless? Why bring her back then?
Also, her killing Jaime right away is also something I don't see happening.
That is why I can't wait to see what happens to UnCat, Jaime and Brienne after their little rendez-vous.

[Apoapsis]

I was thinking about something similar to this theory. Mine is a little bit different though.

Short version: Lady Stoneheart will sacrifice her "life" to "revive" Jon Snow.

Long version:

The Brotherhood will in some way hear the news about Ramsay marrying Arya Stark at Winterfell. Catelyn will want to go there to rescue Arya and kill Boltons. The Brotherhood, wanting to keep doing their "merry men of the Riverlands" thing, will not join her. Brienne will, of course, and probably Gendry. Maybe Jaime will be kept alive if he promises to come with them and help, but I doubt it.

When they reach Winterfell they will learn that Arya has been sent to the Wall. The battle has probably happened by now, so after killing some random surviving Freys they continue towards Castle Black.

Arriving at Castle Black, they meet Jeyne Poole and realise that the whole thing was a fake. Around this time two pieces of news reaches the Wall by raven: Stannis has installed a live Rickon as Lord of Winterfell and Bran might also be alive somewhere, and Littlefinger or Sansa has done something that has revealed Sansa's true identity. Maybe even Bran has revealed himself somehow, indirectly through a heart tree or by arriving at the wall with Hodor, Coldhands and any surviving Reeds.

Catelyn realises that at least three of her four children, most of whom she thought were dead, are still alive. She finds Jon Snow's body in the ice cells and brings him back to life in the same way that Beric brought her back. Why? Maybe knowing that Rickon and Sansa and, to some degree, Bran are safe, brings her some kind of closure. Maybe she is touched by the fact that Jon was prepared to break his vows to the Night's Watch and take an army to find and rescue Arya. Maybe being a zombie isn't all that fun and Melisandre convinced her that Jon was needed to save the world.

This theory is quite far-fetched, but I believe it has some things going for it:

• Catelyn ends up sacrificing herself for someone she has hated (quite unfairly, since he can't help who his parents are) ever since he was born, which may have some emotional impact if written well.
  
• It turns Beric's sacrifice into a nice bit of foreshadowing instead of a rather weird plot device.

Since Catelyn & friends would have to travel all the way up to the wall I suspect that this will happen towards the end of the book, maybe even in the last chapter. This means that Jon's body would have to stay dead and frozen for almost all of The Winds of Winter, and the only way we'd get any Jon chapters would be if he moved into Ghost. Which has also been foreshadowed by the prologue in A Dance with Dragons.

Edited by Apoapsis, 15 June 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Jolene Brown]

Brienne already knows that Arya is a fake... there is no reason for her to keep that from Catelyn.  The BWB may even be able to figure it out for themselves, since they know that the real Arya was last seen at Saltpans with the Hound around the time the supposed Arya was heading for Roose Bolton with Steelshanks Walton.

[iamthedave]

Apoapsis, on 15 June 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

This theory is quite far-fetched, but I believe it has some things going for it:

• Catelyn ends up sacrificing herself for someone she has hated (quite unfairly, since he can't help who his parents are) ever since he was born, which may have some emotional impact if written well.
  
• It turns Beric's sacrifice into a nice bit of foreshadowing instead of a rather weird plot device.

I can't see this happening, because she hates Jon so much, and Lady Stoneheart is basically a being of nothing but hate. Thinking of her as Catelyn is quite possibly an error. If you do, you may also want to consider that Catelyn is now insane to the point of being a new character entirely, one lacking the humanity, kindness and understanding that defined her personality.

And besides that, she viewed Jon, at best, as a reminder that her oh-so noble husband took another woman to bed while he was away from her. Or at least, he permitted her to think that he did.

[little & less]

If Jamie and Brienne make it back to the BWB, one of them will die.  I think it would be Jamie but I think his role is to eventually make it back to Cersie so he can kill her.  Obviously he can't do that if he's dead and I highly doubt Un-Cat would give what's left of her life to Jamie.  So that leaves Brienne but I'm not sure why or how she would die early in the next book.

I think Un-Cat and the BWB will be off on some pressing matters and won't have the chance to meet up with J&B.  Perhaps J&B will wander off and run into Sansa.

GRRM didn't put the prologue in Dance for no reason.  Jon was stabbed but I think he warged into Ghost for the time being.  He'll either find a way to come back through his warging powers or through some sort of blood sacrifice...hopefully Theon.  That scenario leaves the unfortunate possibility that we get a Ghon (jon warged as ghost) POV, which would not be fun.

[PromisedPrince]

Apoapsis, on 15 June 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I was thinking about something similar to this theory. Mine is a little bit different though.

Short version: Lady Stoneheart will sacrifice her "life" to "revive" Jon Snow.

Long version:

The Brotherhood will in some way hear the news about Ramsay marrying Arya Stark at Winterfell. Catelyn will want to go there to rescue Arya and kill Boltons. The Brotherhood, wanting to keep doing their "merry men of the Riverlands" thing, will not join her. Brienne will, of course, and probably Gendry. Maybe Jaime will be kept alive if he promises to come with them and help, but I doubt it.

When they reach Winterfell they will learn that Arya has been sent to the Wall. The battle has probably happened by now, so after killing some random surviving Freys they continue towards Castle Black.

Arriving at Castle Black, they meet Jeyne Poole and realise that the whole thing was a fake. Around this time two pieces of news reaches the Wall by raven: Stannis has installed a live Rickon as Lord of Winterfell and Bran might also be alive somewhere, and Littlefinger or Sansa has done something that has revealed Sansa's true identity. Maybe even Bran has revealed himself somehow, indirectly through a heart tree or by arriving at the wall with Hodor, Coldhands and any surviving Reeds.

Catelyn realises that at least three of her four children, most of whom she thought were dead, are still alive. She finds Jon Snow's body in the ice cells and brings him back to life in the same way that Beric brought her back. Why? Maybe knowing that Rickon and Sansa and, to some degree, Bran are safe, brings her some kind of closure. Maybe she is touched by the fact that Jon was prepared to break his vows to the Night's Watch and take an army to find and rescue Arya. Maybe being a zombie isn't all that fun and Melisandre convinced her that Jon was needed to save the world.

This theory is quite far-fetched, but I believe it has some things going for it:

• Catelyn ends up sacrificing herself for someone she has hated (quite unfairly, since he can't help who his parents are) ever since he was born, which may have some emotional impact if written well.
  
• It turns Beric's sacrifice into a nice bit of foreshadowing instead of a rather weird plot device.

Since Catelyn & friends would have to travel all the way up to the wall I suspect that this will happen towards the end of the book, maybe even in the last chapter. This means that Jon's body would have to stay dead and frozen for almost all of The Winds of Winter, and the only way we'd get any Jon chapters would be if he moved into Ghost. Which has also been foreshadowed by the prologue in A Dance with Dragons.

my original prediction was quite similar to yours actually, i thought they would go north because of arya aswell and i like your 2nd point on berics sacrifice into a foreshadowing.
have u ever thought that dany would be the one to revive jon? ive always thought they would end up together because of the hints along the story, danys prophecy says "...three fires must you light...one for life and one for death and one to love..." I think the last part is her lighting the fire to revive jon, i had one theory that jon would be stuck inside ghost and they would have to burn ghost in order to free him and jons body kept in the salt and apart of him burning inside ghost would make him reborn from salt and smoke. im not too sure about this part there are alot of arguments that can be raised against it.

although we do know that dany will end up at the wall because of the prophecy she was given " To go west you must journey east, to go south you must journey north.." i think this foreshadows her going slavers bay and further east to end up in westeros and going north to the wall once in westeros to end up south at kings landing.

[PromisedPrince]

iamthedave, on 15 June 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I can't see this happening, because she hates Jon so much, and Lady Stoneheart is basically a being of nothing but hate. Thinking of her as Catelyn is quite possibly an error. If you do, you may also want to consider that Catelyn is now insane to the point of being a new character entirely, one lacking the humanity, kindness and understanding that defined her personality.

And besides that, she viewed Jon, at best, as a reminder that her oh-so noble husband took another woman to bed while he was away from her. Or at least, he permitted her to think that he did.

i agree that lady stoneheart is nothing like catelyn and that she lacks the humanity and kindness that defined her personality but we havent seen her POV yet , we thought the same about jaimie untill we saw his POV the impression we get from lady stoneheart is defined by her actions and i think that she is acting on the hate she has for the world because of the red wedding and all her children dying,
there could be the possibility that if she hears of some of her children being alive it could resurface some of her old traits. i think to go north they would have to go through the bogs anyway and pass the reeds because going through the freys is not a option. so maybe Uncat finds out about jons real parents and that helps rid her of the hate she has for him and leaves her feeling guilty for everything shes done to him (that is ofcourse assuming shes not acting like a zombie anymore)

[kg1982]

I don't think that Lady Stoneheart revives Jon.  I do think that Jon meets up with Jaime and Brienne and perhaps Sansa, but at Greywater Watch rather than north near the Wall.  The BWB is probably operating out of the swamps and in conjunction with the Crannogmen.  It's likely that Howland Reed, international man of mystery, will be the one who finally tells Jon about his heritage.  I also think that Jaime is one of the first people who figures out who Jon's parents are.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

iamthedave, on 15 June 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

I can't see this happening, because she hates Jon so much, and Lady Stoneheart is basically a being of nothing but hate. Thinking of her as Catelyn is quite possibly an error. If you do, you may also want to consider that Catelyn is now insane to the point of being a new character entirely, one lacking the humanity, kindness and understanding that defined her personality.

And besides that, she viewed Jon, at best, as a reminder that her oh-so noble husband took another woman to bed while he was away from her. Or at least, he permitted her to think that he did.

Well saying she is a being of nothing but hate is a little strong. That's all we know and see. Of course she comes off that way when hanging Freys. We see her as a harbinger of death because that's how she wants to be seen in the Riverlands. We know when Beric was revived that he did maintain who he was, and slowly his personality was leaving him. So it only makes sense we view Cat the same way, Lady Stark is in there somewhere.

And we also have to keep in mind that she was brought back for a reason. What better reason that to bring back Jon Snow, or help the very person she hated? Maybe she finds out that he is the key to defeating the Others, and makes her last act one of pure selflessness.

[Apoapsis]

Jolene Brown, on 15 June 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Brienne already knows that Arya is a fake... there is no reason for her to keep that from Catelyn.  The BWB may even be able to figure it out for themselves, since they know that the real Arya was last seen at Saltpans with the Hound around the time the supposed Arya was heading for Roose Bolton with Steelshanks Walton.

Do they actually know this? As far as I remember (but it's been a while since I read the books) Brienne thought that the Hound had Sansa Stark, which was the one she was looking for. And the Brotherhood definitely know that the Hound was somewhere nearby when Arya went missing, but do they actually know that he kidnapped her? As far as they know she might just have disappeared on her own, which is what she planned to do.

[Dolorous Ali]

Apoapsis, on 16 June 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Do they actually know this? As far as I remember (but it's been a while since I read the books) Brienne thought that the Hound had Sansa Stark, which was the one she was looking for. And the Brotherhood definitely know that the Hound was somewhere nearby when Arya went missing, but do they actually know that he kidnapped her? As far as they know she might just have disappeared on her own, which is what she planned to do.

I think they do.
And Brienne's thoughts about Sansa being kidnapped by the hound are kinda over, since when she went to that religious place. My memory is kinda vague, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[iamthedave]

PromisedPrince, on 16 June 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

there could be the possibility that if she hears of some of her children being alive it could resurface some of her old traits. i think to go north they would have to go through the bogs anyway and pass the reeds because going through the freys is not a option. so maybe Uncat finds out about jons real parents and that helps rid her of the hate she has for him and leaves her feeling guilty for everything shes done to him (that is ofcourse assuming shes not acting like a zombie anymore)

Can you imagine how much angrier she would become to learn that Jon - of all people - has survived while her darling trueborn children have not? How enraged she'd become if she learned that Stannis was trying to get him set up in Winterfell?

I don't think there's going to be any sort of Stoneheart/Jon love happening.

I also don't think it's a problem because I don't think she'll ever make it out of the Riverlands, or out of this book. I'll be genuinely shocked if the Stoneheart plotline isn't over by the end of Winds of Winter.

[PromisedPrince]

iamthedave, on 16 June 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

Can you imagine how much angrier she would become to learn that Jon - of all people - has survived while her darling trueborn children have not? How enraged she'd become if she learned that Stannis was trying to get him set up in Winterfell?

I don't think there's going to be any sort of Stoneheart/Jon love happening.

I also don't think it's a problem because I don't think she'll ever make it out of the Riverlands, or out of this book. I'll be genuinely shocked if the Stoneheart plotline isn't over by the end of Winds of Winter.

i agree she would be go mad and have more of a reason to end up north if she finds out stannis has rickon.. if she finds stannis dead and the Black brothers loyal to jon protecting rickon why would she think ill of him?
i also think your right and she wont get far in the next book, but why else would GRRM resurrect her character if not for something important along the plot?
he also made sure we understood that she could give her life for someone else to live when he had lord beric die for her, he could of just had thoros resurrect her and let berric live.

Edited by PromisedPrince, 16 June 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[iamthedave]

PromisedPrince, on 16 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

i agree she would be go mad and have more of a reason to end up north if she finds out stannis has rickon.. if she finds stannis dead and the Black brothers loyal to jon protecting rickon why would she think ill of him?
i also think your right and she wont get far in the next book, but why else would GRRM resurrect her character if not for something important along the plot?
he also made sure we understood that she could give her life for someone else to live when he had lord beric die for her, he could of just had thoros resurrect her and let berric live.

If Catelyn was resurrected primarily to tie into the Freys being destroyed, that would count as important, I think. However, I think you're approaching this from a flawed angle of thinking.

Catelyn is no longer a POV character. Jorah Mormont is still alive. Must he therefore be alive to do something important in the plot? He might well do, but that doesn't mean he will. What about Bronn? I'm pretty sure that any significance she has at this point will go no further than Brienne/Jaime and the Freys, and maybe not even the Freys (could well be that Blackfish/Sansa will end up dealing with the Freys).

Besides, Riverlands to the North is a long, long way for a former dead person to travel.

Edited by iamthedave, 17 June 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[David Selig]

Catelyn resurrecting Jon makes no sense. It would be completely and utterly out of character for her. I highly doubt death and resurrection have made her like Jon more than before.

Plus Brienne knows that the Arya the Boltons have is a fake (Jaime told her that back in KL), so there's no reason for her and UnCat to go north.

Edited by David Selig, 17 June 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[PromisedPrince]

iamthedave, on 17 June 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

If Catelyn was resurrected primarily to tie into the Freys being destroyed, that would count as important, I think. However, I think you're approaching this from a flawed angle of thinking.

Catelyn is no longer a POV character. Jorah Mormont is still alive. Must he therefore be alive to do something important in the plot? He might well do, but that doesn't mean he will. What about Bronn? I'm pretty sure that any significance she has at this point will go no further than Brienne/Jaime and the Freys, and maybe not even the Freys (could well be that Blackfish/Sansa will end up dealing with the Freys).

Besides, Riverlands to the North is a long, long way for a former dead person to travel.

yes i agree if catelyn ended up destroying the freys it would be important, but you cant compare catelyns resurrection to jorah mormont still being alive.. he just left he never DIED.. he also brought tyrion away from JC and "Aegon" so that was important.
im not saying my theory HAS to happen im simply suggesting what could happen. Id be happy to hear your prediction if you want to share it?

[Dolorous Ali]

PromisedPrince, on 11 June 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

feel free to comment and give your predictions

Some people on this board seem to share your theory of Oathkeeper and sacrificing ghost. I still don't think they're likely, but I don't know where they come form. Is it just crackpot? Or is there some evidence that I have missed?
I thought I ask you about it, as you're the first person I have seen writing these theories. What was your original thought when you wrote it? And what led you to these theories? Is it because oathkeeper is a part of Ice?
BTW I really like Ghost. Don't want him dead, even if it's the only way that would save Westeros.

[Clariana]

Jaime sees the false Ayra being sent out from King's Landing and I'm pretty certain he tells Brienne before giving her Oathkeeper and sending her out to search for the Stark girls.

My question is does Brienne alert Jaime to what is going on on the way to meet Stoneheart or does she keep mum? The latter is possible because Brienne's motivation is to save Pod... Even though she may harbour some affection/respect for Jaime in her eyes Pod is an innocent and Jaime most certainly is not... I like to think that B spills the beans to J and together they take on the BWB and rescue Pod, and after that... Who knows?

Edited by Clariana, 24 June 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[PromisedPrince]

Dolorous Ali, on 23 June 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

Some people on this board seem to share your theory of Oathkeeper and sacrificing ghost. I still don't think they're likely, but I don't know where they come form. Is it just crackpot? Or is there some evidence that I have missed?
I thought I ask you about it, as you're the first person I have seen writing these theories. What was your original thought when you wrote it? And what led you to these theories? Is it because oathkeeper is a part of Ice?
BTW I really like Ghost. Don't want him dead, even if it's the only way that would save Westeros.

really? i havent come across anyone who believes ghost will be sacrificed yet, or anyone who WANTS to believe it .
i really like ghost aswell and i dont want him dead either, tbh theres no real evidence so i guess it would be regarded as "crackpot" but yes one of the reasons i thought of it is because oathkeeper is ice and i think it will end up with a stark somehow, although i dont think oathkeeper is the only option i think using longclaw would have the same effect but i think longclaw might end up with jorah mormont when he comes to the wall with dany somehow..
some of the main reasons are that i dont believe light bringer is just hidden somewhere and will just appear so i think it will have to be forged again so there will need to be a sacrifice of some sort. some say it may be dawn and the daynes still have it, even if it ends up being dawn, dawn is not aflame so i think that would need a sacrifice to re awaken its powers again.
thats where ghost comes in. if jon really is AA i think ghost symbolises the thing most dear to him like the originals AA wife. so this is just speculation but if it came to a sacrifice i think GRRM would choose ghost aswell, not that he doesnt like ghost but just because it suits the plot (wev seen him do it before).
people say he could sacrifice arya or rickon or bran etc but i think each one would be as hard as the other for him so why would GRRM choose one without him/her having any real significance.
id love to see the story finish with ghost still beside jon( if jons still alive) but i think hel end up warging and riding a dragon somehow, and ghost being used to symbolize his change from stark to targaryen when he finds out R+l=j..

Edited by PromisedPrince, 24 June 2012 - 11:03 PM.

[PromisedPrince]

Clariana, on 24 June 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Jaime sees the false Ayra being sent out from King's Landing and I'm pretty certain he tells Brienne before giving her Oathkeeper and sending her out to search for the Stark girls.

My question is does Brienne alert Jaime to what is going on on the way to meet Stoneheart or does she keep mum? The latter is possible because Brienne's motivation is to save Pod... Even though she may harbour some affection/respect for Jaime in her eyes Pod is an innocent and Jaime most certainly is not... I like to think that B spills the beans to J and together they take on the BWB and rescue Pod, and after that... Who knows?

yes but it would still have the same effect if they found out rickon was alive daughter or son they are still lady stonehearts children.

to your question regarding brienne telling jaimie, maybe she does tell him but i think that would have to result in them killing lady stoneheart somehow and would brienne accept that?
i think she keeps quiet and they come to understanding where they all gain from whats decided SOMEHOW.. i dont see lady stoneheart dieng yet tbh nor jaimie or brienne