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Why is Sansa so helpless all the time?


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#1 Lady Hodor

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM

- Just a note, this thread was not intended to bring down the wrath of any Sansa fans. So remain calm :)
This is merely a question, not an opinion, so withold any spite that initially stirs at the title.

I was just thinking, Sansa is so different from all the other Stark kids, don't you reckon?
The majority of Starks are stubborn, brave, determined and honourable... Sansa contrasts nearly all these traits.
Stubborn: Sansa gives in at nearly everything.
Brave: She is frequently scared and presents no acts of bravery.
Determined: She does nothing to make her aims come true, aside from risking going to the godswood.
Honourable: She went to Cersei and told her of Ned's plans, essentially betraying him.

Her siblings are also fairly independant by comparrison.
(Bran and Rickon excluded, as they are extremely young children).

So I was just wondering why is it that she is so obviously different from the others?

Its fair enough that she's different from the boys, their upbringing would be entirely different.
But she and Arya would be raised in nearly an identical manner, yet they are as different as ice and fire.

Look at Arya, she's brave and independant and can take care of herself, not ignoring she can fight and is feisty.
Whereas Sansa is scared all the time, dependent on any help available, and submissive and weak.
We see this in King's Landing the most, where, fair enough, her situation is awful, but Arya's is just as terrifying.
You could argue that Sansa is only thirteen, but then again Arya is ten.

I am aware that siblings are different of course, but their differences here are fairly extreme.

So what happened in the upbringing to make Sansa so different to the other Starks?
- Speaking of before any of the events of the series.

#2 mythsandstuff

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:16 PM

She lost her wolf.

#3 Gingerly Grumkin

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:17 PM

Papa's Petyr?

#4 Lady Hodor

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:17 PM

View Postmythsandstuff, on 11 June 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

She lost her wolf.

Interesting. We never did see her really with her wolf, only one chapter. But the memories of the kids seem to suggest she was always like that.

#5 Elder Sister

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:21 PM

I think they are just two very different people.  I relate much more to Arya, but I do feel empathy for Sansa.  She continues to make what the reader (or at least I do, anyway) perceives are missteps, yet here she is, still alive and growing up.

To me, the biggest fundamental difference between these two girls can be seen with Sansa's reaction to Sandor Clegane's offer to take her out of KL.  She refuses, (in the books, Sandor doesn't offer to take her home, if I remember correctly - just out of there.  Correct me if I'm wrong about this.) but I think Arya would have been out of there like a shot, and would have ditched Sandor when it was convenient.

Arya is not afraid to take action.  Sansa is paralyzed by indecision, it seems to me.

#6 Independent George

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:26 PM

The only time you can be brave is when you're afraid. Sansa was as brave as anyone could be in King's Landing.

If you switched Arya and Sansa's situations around, they'd both be dead inside of an hour.

#7 JohnWitch

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:26 PM

I think she is learning, not as helpless as she was before. There's also the factor of luck. Although Arya was much more unluckier in the big picture and Sansa was left in a better position, I think luck actually favoured Arya. She's a small kid in an unforgiving world, almost always having to take care of herself without any help, and she managed to not be raped/killed/robbed. Sure, she's resourceful and brave, but still just a kid.

Sansa would never be able to do that. She's different, yes, but she could never disguise as a boy, for example. I think she's doing fine, actually. Playing her strings quietly. The best player is one who looks as if he's being played.

#8 Ice Turtle

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:33 PM

Starks are anomaly, some of them are really little wild beasts (Arya, Rickon), Sansa is more Tully (understand normal) in this regard, also she lacks some motivation to act.

#9 mythsandstuff

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:34 PM

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:



Interesting. We never did see her really with her wolf, only one chapter. But the memories of the kids seem to suggest she was always like that.
Bran says it. Page 482, GoT. Robb is complaining about Sansa.
I would argue that the scene in that book where they're sewing and Arya gets in trouble shows Sansa to be more than just passive. The fact that she's more "ladylike" than Arya doesn't have to mean she has less agency. It's the loss of the wolf, and the choice she made that led to it, that strips her of her agency (parallel to choice to tell Cersei they were leaving, choice to go to godswood in KL). Sansa loses her agency (wolf) by exercising her agency.

#10 butterbumps!

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:34 PM

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Stubborn: Sansa gives in at nearly everything.
Brave: She is frequently scared and presents no acts of bravery.
Determined: She does nothing to make her aims come true, aside from risking going to the godswood.
Honourable: She went to Cersei and told her of Ned's plans, essentially betraying him.

Stubborn:  Sansa doesn't give in-- she excels at her lessons and subjects  (and Arya is left-handed, which makes her hamfisted with the more delicate crafts).  Sansa does rebel, but quietly.  It would do no good to stage a revolution from within the viper's pit.  Her thoughts reveal that she is not so complaisant as her "obedience" makes her seem.  One small act of defiance is that she did not kneel in her marriage to Tyrion.   She's being wed into the family that killed her father in front of her.  She has a right not to kneel.

Brave:  A couple of instances:  Faced with the prospect of Ser Illyn's sword during the Blackwater, she takes over Cersei's job to remain calm and comfort the women in the tower.  She gets herself and Sweet Robin calmly down from the Eyrie despite the peril.  I think it takes a lot of strength and bravery to remain as controlled over her person as she does.  Arya cannot initially control herself this way (not until the tutelage of the FM).

Determined:  She's determined to do what it takes to survive.  She knows that remaining vigilant and courteous is the manner to stay alive and untouched, and is getting very good at hiding her thoughts and feelings.

Honorable:  I think Sansa takes far too much blame for going to Cersei.  Ironically, it's an act of rebellion against her father, but in no way had she intended to bring him to harm.  It was Ned's going to Cersei that's to blame for how things played out, Sansa just gave some details.  Has she actually been dishonorable anywhere?

#11 Winter's Knight

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

- Just a note, this thread was not intended to bring down the wrath of any Sansa fans. So remain calm :)
This is merely a question, not an opinion, so withold any spite that initially stirs at the title.
I was just thinking, Sansa is so different from all the other Stark kids, don't you reckon?
The majority of Starks are stubborn, brave, determined and honourable... Sansa contrasts nearly all these traits.
Stubborn: Sansa gives in at nearly everything.

No, she:

  • Refused to obey the Ned and leave Joff without a fight.
  • Refused to go with Dontos once she had the more stable prospect of Highgarden.
  • Refused to kneel for Tyrion.

Quote

Brave: She is frequently scared and presents no acts of bravery.
  • Assisted Sweetrobin down that narrow path at the Eerie
  • Pleads for her father's life in open court
  • Stayed and comforted the women and children during Blackwater.
  • Warns Margery about Joff, despite the danger to her

Quote

Determined: She does nothing to make her aims come true, aside from risking going to the godswood.
  • Again, went to the Queen to get her heart's desire
  • Pleaded for her father's life in court.

Quote

Honourable: She went to Cersei and told her of Ned's plans, essentially betraying him.

I'd argue that Sansa is one of the few women who show solidarity with her own gender-she's a "sister" as shown by her warning Marg more than once even though she was afraid it'd cause the Tyrells to break off the engagment.

#12 Lady Kraken

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:40 PM

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Stubborn: Sansa gives in at nearly everything.

She is quite stubborn, actually. She tries to hold on to her ideals in King's Landing, even with everyone always trying to beat them out of her. She somehow holds on to her compassion despite everything she's been through, though we see a more hardened Sansa emerging in Feast.

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Brave: She is frequently scared and presents no acts of bravery.

Oh yes, she does. Saving Dontos was an act of bravery. Keeping her true feelings to herself and sucking up all of the abuse to survive was an act of bravery. Responding to the note left by Littlefinger was an act of bravery. Showing up to the godswood, knife in hand, was a moment of bravery. Refusing to kneel for Tyrion was an act of bravery. Climbing down the cliffs to escape King's Landing was an act of bravery. Helping Robert Arryn across the crossing Mya slipped on down the mountain was an act of bravery.

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Determined: She does nothing to make her aims come true, aside from risking going to the godswood.

She is very much determined to go home. Plotting with Dontos shows this. Plotting with the Tyrells is another example. She also confronts Littlefinger about not bringing her home like he promised. She has very little room for agency in King's Landing, but she grasps at the opportunities she's given.

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Honourable: She went to Cersei and told her of Ned's plans, essentially betraying him

All the Stark kids do things that aren't really right. Arya's vigilante justice on Dareon and her murder of the insurance guy. Bran warging into Hodor. Yes, Sansa makes a mistake, but there was also no malicious intent behind it. She uses all the channels available to her afterwards to try to save her father's life.

View PostLady Hodor, on 11 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

So I was just wondering why is it that she is so obviously different from the others?

I don't think she's all that different. She uses the tools she has--her armor of courtesy, her ability to hide her feelings, the ability to make people love her--to survive. Just as Arya and Bran use their particular skills to survive. And all the Stark kids are only alive because they had help from other people, Arya is no exception here. They're all motivated by their hope for home and seeing their family again. Actually, Arya and Sansa's stories parallel each other extraordinarily closely throughout the series.

As for Sansa not being able to do anything on her own... Now that she has more freedom to move in the Vale, she's actually doing quite well. Littlefinger has entrusted her with important tasks like setting things up for the meeting with the Lords Declarant and getting Robert down the mountain, and she has succeeded largely on her own.

View PostElder Sister, on 11 June 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

To me, the biggest fundamental difference between these two girls can be seen with Sansa's reaction to Sandor Clegane's offer to take her out of KL.  She refuses, (in the books, Sandor doesn't offer to take her home, if I remember correctly - just out of there.  Correct me if I'm wrong about this.) but I think Arya would have been out of there like a shot, and would have ditched Sandor when it was convenient.

Well, Sandor holds a knife to her throat and seems to ponder raping her, so not leaving with him is entirely understandable. He also takes off before she can actually get a response out to him. You're thinking of the TV show, I think.


Arya and Sansa are different, yes. But they both have their individual strengths (which are both just as valid) and they are both survivors. I admire both characters immensely.

Edited by Lady Kraken, 11 June 2012 - 04:56 PM.


#13 Elder Sister

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:41 PM

"I'd argue that Sansa is one of the few women who show solidarity with her own gender-she's a "sister" as shown by her warning Marg more than once even though she was afraid it'd cause the Tyrells to break off the engagment."

I so agree with this statement - it's one of the reasons I still cheer for her.  She really worries about Margery Tyrell's safety and happiness.  I don't remember her ever being concerned with how she's perceived, loss of face, etc.  She's more concerned about this girl she doesn't even really know.

#14 The Last Reyne

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:42 PM

View Postbutterbumps!, on 11 June 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Stubborn:  Sansa doesn't give in-- she excels at her lessons and subjects  (and Arya is left-handed, which makes her hamfisted with the more delicate crafts).  Sansa does rebel, but quietly.  It would do no good to stage a revolution from within the viper's pit.  Her thoughts reveal that she is not so complaisant as her "obedience" makes her seem.  One small act of defiance is that she did not kneel in her marriage to Tyrion.   She's being wed into the family that killed her father in front of her.  She has a right not to kneel.

Brave:  A couple of instances:  Faced with the prospect of Ser Illyn's sword during the Blackwater, she takes over Cersei's job to remain calm and comfort the women in the tower.  She gets herself and Sweet Robin calmly down from the Eyrie despite the peril.  I think it takes a lot of strength and bravery to remain as controlled over her person as she does.  Arya cannot initially control herself this way (not until the tutelage of the FM).

Determined:  She's determined to do what it takes to survive.  She knows that remaining vigilant and courteous is the manner to stay alive and untouched, and is getting very good at hiding her thoughts and feelings.

Honorable:  I think Sansa takes far too much blame for going to Cersei.  Ironically, it's an act of rebellion against her father, but in no way had she intended to bring him to harm.  It was Ned's going to Cersei that's to blame for how things played out, Sansa just gave some details.  Has she actually been dishonorable anywhere?

I agree, all these traits can shown in diffderent ways and because she shows them differently than her sibling does not mean she does not have these traits. In fact if she were more like her siblings she probably would be dead by now. Her subtly and finesse have served her well and will allow her to come out on top later.

#15 lojzelote

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:43 PM

What would you do in her place? What would you have her do? Kick Joffrey in the groin? Try to seduce the guards to let her flee?

I would act in the exact same manner as she has. Minus the 'I'm really Alayne Stone' internal monologue, which is kind of worrying.

#16 Lyeder

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:44 PM

Sansa as the elder daughter was certainly risen with less liberties than Arya. It was more important to make her a perfect lady and a good match than it was for Arya. So, they were not brought up exactly the same- siblings never are!

I also think, she is doing the best in an awful situation. Also, Sansa's character is actually believable, Arya, the superhero assassin while still a child, does not hold five minutes.

#17 Elder Sister

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:44 PM

View PostLady Kraken, on 11 June 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:


Well, Sandor holds a knife to her throat and seems to ponder raping her, so not leaving with him is entirely understandable. He also takes off before she can actually get a response out to him. You're thinking of the TV show, I think.

No, I wasn't thinking of the tv show (yeah, he was definitely less threatening on tv, wasn't he???) and I know he was scary w/the knife, drunkeness, general bloodiness, etc., but I was just considering that Arya would have probably run with it - that's my perception of the two sisters, anyway.

#18 butterbumps!

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:46 PM

I just want to add, I think her apparent helplessness is more an issue of the subtlety of her storyline.  She has to attract little attention if she wants to be left alone, she's constantly under surveillance, and she's without any allies in Kings Landing.  Everyone there wants to use her for their own ends, but she's just trying to survive to reunite with what remains of her family again.  Her battle has to be a quiet one because of the circumstances, but I think she's far more similar in her evolution to Arya than many realize.  Their stories are quite parallel, despite the fact that Arya's is more extroverted and full of "adventure."

#19 Lady Kraken

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostElder Sister, on 11 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

No, I wasn't thinking of the tv show (yeah, he was definitely less threatening on tv, wasn't he???) and I know he was scary w/the knife, drunkeness, general bloodiness, etc., but I was just considering that Arya would have probably run with it - that's my perception of the two sisters, anyway.

I don't think so. Arya hates the Hound when he first takes her and tries to kill him a number of times. If he was as sexually threatening toward her as he was toward Sansa in that moment, I can't imagine her wanting to go with him. Like I said, he doesn't really give Sansa much opportunity to accept the offer either.

#20 Azor Ahai Reborn II

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:47 PM

Sansa has a different view of the world at the beginning of the books, she believes in the songs and stories and immerses herself in the beauty of it all, she is in essense the proper little lady. When she arrives at Kings Landing she thinks it will all be soirées and listening to bards, which makes her helpless and vulnerable in 'the lion pit'.
Of all the characters in the book I believe she becomes the strongest, not in physicality but in emotion and mental strength. The reason I believe this is because she gets to the point where she can mask her inner thoughts and feelings from those around her and control them to her strength. This is more than can be said of most other characters in the book, other than Ned. Robb gives in to Jeyne against his honour. Arya gives in and kills Dareon. Jon with Ygritte. Rickon is still young and we dont see much of his own thoughts. Bran gives in to his fears when his legs are broken and relies on the others around him. Cat releases Jamie. The Lannisters are the same Tyrion with Shae and Tysha, Jamie with Brienne, Cersei breaks when captured by The Sparrows.

Sansa never breaks, the only one not to, now how helpless is she...?