79 replies to this topic

[Batman]

They seem to be very much alike in a number of ways. They both prefer to lead their armies from a strategic advantage point, they both are excellent strategists and they both are powerful leaders. On top of that both of them seem intelligent in terms of running a kingdom.

Why is it that nobody seems to give Stannis his due in terms of ruling the seven kingdoms. So many people seem to think Renly would have been a better leader than Stannis and all he did was wear nice clothes and smile at tournements. In what ways do they differ?

[DurararaFTW]

Tywin was Hand for 20 years, Stannis wasn't.

[Silmarien]

Stannis is a middle child, Tywin was the heir?  Poor Stannis just doesn't get the respect he deserves, warts and all.

[Lady Octarina]

The main thing is, Stannis doesn't have a nice song written about how he crushed his enemies.

But yes, they do have some things in common: the points you mentioned, the fact that they are both pragmatic and not too anxious to be loved by anyone (well, in Stannis' case that's open for debate, but he does acts like he doesn't care about it). Both I think Tywin is much more ruthless than Stannis, really cruel. Stannis does what needs to be done, Tywin does that and adds fear as a special bonus. Everyone fears Tywin, but are just cautious where Stannis is concerned. Not to mention that many of Tywin's great deeds were when he was Hand of the King, whereas Stannis never had such a position, which may be why very few people took him and the threat he represents seriously when he decided to claim the throne. And Stannis' victories have mainly been overshadowed by others, whereas Tywin makes sure that everyone knows who was responsible for his own victories. Stannis sucks at PR, basically.

But I do agree with you that Stannis would be a much better king than foolish Renly.

[Greatjon_umber]

Lady Octarina, on 11 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

The main thing is, Stannis doesn't have a nice song written about how he crushed his enemies.

But yes, they do have some things in common: the points you mentioned, the fact that they are both pragmatic and not too anxious to be loved by anyone (well, in Stannis' case that's open for debate, but he does acts like he doesn't care about it). Both I think Tywin is much more ruthless than Stannis, really cruel. Stannis does what needs to be done, Tywin does that and adds fear as a special bonus. Everyone fears Tywin, but are just cautious where Stannis is concerned. Not to mention that many of Tywin's great deeds were when he was Hand of the King, whereas Stannis never had such a position, which may be why very few people took him and the threat he represents seriously when he decided to claim the throne. And Stannis' victories have mainly been overshadowed by others, whereas Tywin makes sure that everyone knows who was responsible for his own victories. Stannis sucks at PR, basically.

But I do agree with you that Stannis would be a much better king than foolish Renly.

Yeah pretty much everything posted above me. Stannis hasn't had the same opportunities as Tywin, plus he isn't the head of his family, nor was he ever hand of the king. And though he had some fantastic deeds, he much like Ned was never one to really go around boasting about them. And also, like said above, they were overshadowed by other deeds done by other men. But yeah, I really do see alot of Tywin in Stannis, with the exception that Stannis has a moral core that revolves more around being just and following the rules, as opposed to Tywin's which seemed focused on family first.

[David Selig]

Tywin had charisma and people skills, two things Stannis really lacks. Stannis is bad at PR too, another thing Tywin excelled at. And all the Lannister gold helped an awful lot too to buy friends everywhere.

[Batman]

Lady Octarina, on 11 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Stannis sucks at PR, basically.

And there it is. Stannis and Jon Arryn ruled while Robert whored and no one knew. He held Storms End against a huge part of the Reach but Ned and Robert got the glory. On top of that he destoryed the Greyjoy fleet, which is essentially the same as defeating Michael Jordan in his prime at a game of one on one. No PR and a sense of honor.

[Lord Ben]

David Selig, on 11 June 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Tywin had charisma and people skills,

On the TV show he does.  Not so much in the books though.

[Batman]

Lord Ben, on 11 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

On the TV show he does.  Not so much in the books though.

In the TV series Stannis is more inspiring than the other five kings combined. In the TV series Stannis is the type of man who can make his troops follow through his actions and Renly seems completely unworthy. Renly is unworthy but in the books he seemed charasmatic at least

[Lord Ben]

The first read I didn't see TV Stannis as that type, but reading it a second time (before the show yet) I definitely got the impression that Stannis is the type of hard man you'd want to follow.   He's about only one thing... winning.

[Istakhr]

Tywin had real power and while being somewhat overly cruel didn't fuck up too much. People admire competence and power.
Stannis never managed to shine in anything. He was always overshadowed by other people. No one cared to look for his better qualities.

And they are not that much alike. Stannis isn't machiavellian, cruel like Tywin. They are both seem decent commanders, but their similarities end there.

[David C. Hunter]

I dont believe PR work means anything in this series because Tywin talks just as bluntly as Stannis, what Tywin does better than Stannis is that he is willing to compromise for the sake of the realm.

Stannis doesn't compromise. He is iron. Tywin is a very good leader, but what he has is history and songs written about him. He also has a reputation and a great win percentage. Its like trying to say why Britney Spears gets more attention than that girl in Frogballs, Arkansas who has a range of 12 Octaves.

I really wouldve loved to see a full war between Tywin and Stannis.

[Artos Stark]

On land Stannis isn't half of the military leader that Tywin is.  How many songs does Stannis have about him crushing his enemies?

[Lord Ben]

David C. Simmons, on 11 June 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

I dont believe PR work means anything in this series because Tywin talks just as bluntly as Stannis, what Tywin does better than Stannis is that he is willing to compromise for the sake of the realm.

Tywin would sell the realm down the river if it benefited the Lannisters.  He is full of pride for himself and pride for his family, serving the Realm is merely the means by which he fills his pride.

[Queen Cersei I]

The complex literary creation that is Stannis does not deserve to share space with the relatively more typical, less multifaceted Tywin.

I know, I know-- Tywin only did what he had to do for his family; he loved his wife; he wanted to restore the Lannister name and honor; etc.

However, despite everyone and their best friends cousin pontificating about how Tywin was such a great man, etc., he seemed, as a character, far less original and compelling than Stannis. He was the super cold, super competent, inaccessible father figure/ patriarch who is, at bottom, something of a Wizard of Oz, behind the curtain hiding all of his unimpressive devices and skeletons. (It was mostly whores and hypocrisy for Tywin, I guess.) Still, I can name numerous literary characters (especially in the fantasy genre) that hold striking similarities to the "great" Tywin.

In contrast, Stannis, love him or hate him, is genuinely one of the most original, complex, and involving characters in these books. Unlike characters like Jon Snow or Danerys or Ned, who anyone would want as their neighbor, lover, or best friend, Stannis is simply not a "likable good guy." He orignially appears to be the hard, stoic man with a wounded soul and a secret heart of gold; and yet, as we get to know him, he becomes only more profoundly morally ambivilent-- alternately ambitious, self deluding, genuinely just, weirdly sympathetic, self-hating, bitter, decent, and equal parts contradictory and (Unintentionally) hypcritical.

I wouldn't want Stannis for my man, my neighbor, my best friend, or my coworker. While characters like Jon Snow, even Tyrion, are people you can see yourself having an interesting conversation with and then going out with for a drink afterwards, Stannis is somebody you'd never ask to a social event ever, and if by chance he learned of one that you were attending, you'd probably purposely give the guy the wrong address just to avoid having to hang out with him for any extended period.

But he's fascinating to read about.

The biggest difference between the two besides the difference in the depthg and quality of their characters is that Tywin is a conscious, knowing hypocrite; while Stannis is a sincere, self deluding hypocrite who genuinely believes he is what he says he is. Tywin sleeps with whores, condemns others for the same behavior, etc., for the sake of appearances, knowing well his own predilections and how to hide them.

Stannis, in contrast, burns with ambition, lust, thwarted desires; insecurites and loneliness and old grudges that have manifested themselves in some pretty unpleasant ways. He tells himeself he's motivated by duty, but is relatively full of crap. For instance, his objections that he does not want to be king but must be, are not fully true-- IMO, he burns with ambition and wants to prove himself against all those who've laughed at him in the past, to have his day in the sun at long last, after thanklessly submitting to the ungrateful Robert all those years.

Similarly, he goes no and on about a man's duty to his brother, while he abandoned Robert at the first sign of danger, leaving him to a probable death at the hands of his unfaithful queen. He rails against Robert's sexual promiscuity and tells Jon than Ned Stark "dishonored" Cat with  his presumed single infidelity, all while carrying on a blatantly sexual affair with a gorgeous young priestess right under his wife's nose, in hr own home and while he is traveling with her. Also, clearly pretty much everyone knows Stannis and Melisandre are lovers, which seems pretty "dishonorable" to Selyse. (Though perhaps Stannis, along with readers, assumes that Selyse doesn't count while Cat does because Selyse is ugly and Cat is hot???) Finally, Stannis says he believes in justice and each man must get what he deserves; yet he has repeatedly noted his intention to kill Cersei's "abominations" as soon as he is able to. Finally, he says himself that, "No good deed can cancel out a bad one," yet he is willing to murder his nephew "for the greater good."

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 11 June 2012 - 11:44 PM.

[Lord Ben]

I was always under the impression Selyse is complicit in his "affair" with Melisandre.   I think she knows and doesn't disapprove.  She's quite faithful/brainwashed pick your favorite.

I agree with parts of your post totally and other parts completely disagree!   I think Dany is far more complex than that (and would kick her out of my life in a heartbeat as a lover type), she's fairly stereotypical but in a world where the stereotypical results don't occur.  

The story of "The pretty princess marries a wild savage but ends up falling in love and they get dragons and rescue slaves from slavers and are loved for it!!" has been done before but usually it doesn't end up a train wreck most of the way for the young heroine.

Quote

I wouldn't want Stannis for my man, my neighbor, my best friend, or my coworker.

But would you want him as  your King?   To me he won't get any birthday party invites but at least as a King he won't get me killed in war because he liked Jayne Westerling more than Ms Frey, or because he had too much honor to tell his friend he'd been cuckolded, or loved throwing parties all over the Reach when he should have been marching on Kings Landing, or spurned an alliance because he wanted to pay the iron price instead of make tactically sound decisions.

I'd take him for King in a heartbeat over the rest of the pretenders.

[Noimporta]

Lord Ben, on 11 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

On the TV show he does.  Not so much in the books though.

Charisma is a pretty unquantifiable quality that doesn't really come across very well in books. You'll notice characters that are described as charismatic hardly do anything to earn that reputation with the readers, while characters that are hated in the books are pretty proficient at winning readers over.

[Castel]

Lord Ben, on 11 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

On the TV show he does.  Not so much in the books though.

Tywin has a great PR department. People skills doesn't just mean getting people to like you, it means getting them to do what you want, Tywin has managed to leverage a bunch of terrible acts (some, if you believe him, unintentional) into an actually useful reputation that he uses to get what he wants while maintaining an aura of implacability. You play nice with Tywin Lannister, he does right by you, you don't and he eats your babies, it doesn't matter what you do, he will get you. A Lannister always pays his debts.

Stannis on the other hand is bitter and rigid and not willing to play anyone's game. And on top of that he never had the control that Tywin had and so all his victories (one really) didn't lead to much.

[Batman]

Artos Stark, on 11 June 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

On land Stannis isn't half of the military leader that Tywin is.  How many songs does Stannis have about him crushing his enemies?

"A great deed unsung is no less great" Garlan Tyrell

[Castel]

Batman, on 11 June 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

"A great deed unsung is no less great" Garlan Tyrell

Stannis has one major victory, against a group of people that were completely unfamiliar with heavy cavalry and columns of knight, not to mention they were part refugee convoy, part army.