57 replies to this topic

[Vandalism]

I find it annoying how House Baratheon was established as one of the Great Houses of Westeros yet how nobody brazenly declares themselves for the Baratheons. Allegiances to Stark, Lannister, Greyjoy and Tyrell are pretty pronounced and visible, we don't really know who truly represents House Baratheon in name and for the people of Westeros to know about. Has House Baratheon just dissolved without necessarily being attacked?

Stannis Baratheon in truth represents House Baratheon as its last man, but most people in Westeros do not know this since they think that Cersei's kids are Robert's kids. Add to that the fact that Stannis has a cool new sigil, and I think we can safely say that House Baratheon does not exist in the War of Kings so much as House Stannis Baratheon.

Robert and Renly are dead. Robert was the true head of Baratheon, powerful and unbeatable. Renly was fake and a pawn for House Tyrell, but I guess he did have the stag sigil.

Renly died very quickly, however, and in King's Landing Tommen and co are called the Lannisters by everyone, including themselves. Nobody calls them the Baratheons.

This aspect of the series rather annoys me. Things dissolved just like that.

[Silmarien]

Stannis is still in the game, and last time I checked he was still a Baratheon, new sigil and all.

The Tullys are the ones who should be worried about longevity at this point...and the Starks.

[Vandalism]

This wasn't so much a discussion topic as me making a declarative statement, I guess =P But Stannis is largely perceived officially as a usurper while Tommen is largely perceived officially as the head of Baratheon despite being part of the group called the Lannisters.

Frustrating that Baratheons must be wrongly identified for so freaking long in the series.

[Silmarien]

Vandalism, on 12 June 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

This wasn't so much a discussion topic as me making a declarative statement, I guess =P But Stannis is largely perceived officially as a usurper while Tommen is largely perceived officially as the head of Baratheon despite being part of the group called the Lannisters.

Frustrating that Baratheons must be wrongly identified for so freaking long in the series.

Ah, yes I agree.  But it seems that after Stannis' little letter drop campaign that most people know that the "Baratheon" children are actually Lannister bastards....see the smallfolk yelling "brotherfucker!" to Cersei during her WoS, and Olenna Tyrell insinuating that she knows Tommen isn't really a Baratheon (see her statements to Cersei after Joffrey's death for Tommen/Marg's wedding, insisting that the Baratheon cloak be used).

[Toccs]

That's just what happens when you sit on the Iron Throne.  The higher up you are, the further you fall.  Same thing happened to the Targaryens at Baratheon hands no less.

Edited by Toccs, 12 June 2012 - 06:32 AM.

[jarl the climber]

As far as I know Tommen is called Tommen Barratheon first of his name, of course we know that he is not but like Bowen Marsh told Jon, many people in Westeros do beleive he is Roberts son, most of them have not seen the bastards and the other evidence that Ned and Stannis have.

[Silmarien]

jarl the climber, on 12 June 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

As far as I know Tommen is called Tommen Barratheon first of his name, of course we know that he is not but like Bowen Marsh told Jon, many people in Westeros do beleive he is Roberts son, most of them have not seen the bastards and the other evidence that Ned and Stannis have.

True, but plenty have seen those leaflets that Stannis dropped around the 7 kingdoms....

[Azor Ahai Reborn II]

The reason that Tommen comes first is the line of succession, Robert took the throne and therefore his descendants are the only line that takes it, unless he dies without heir. This will not happen, I believe that somehow Jon Snow may may have more to say about this than most.

[LuisDantas]

The smallfolk are aware of Stannis accusations as well.  We have seen them mentioned during the riots in King's Landing after Myrcella's departure to Dorne.

That said, House Baratheon is certainly at a low point, and in fact in grim danger of extinction.  That is infighting for you and me.

I'm not all that certain it means a lot beyond the loss of lifes and resources brought by the war itself, however.   When push comes to shove a "House" is something of a motivational fiction - much like a country.

[Arkash]

Quote

The Tullys are the ones who should be worried about longevity at this point...and the Starks.

And the Arryns.

I have some fear for the Baratheons too... hope Stannis will consider my fears! ^^

[mcb]

Vandalism, on 12 June 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I find it annoying how House Baratheon was established as one of the Great Houses of Westeros yet how nobody brazenly declares themselves for the Baratheons. Allegiances to Stark, Lannister, Greyjoy and Tyrell are pretty pronounced and visible, we don't really know who truly represents House Baratheon in name and for the people of Westeros to know about. Has House Baratheon just dissolved without necessarily being attacked?

When a House splits into three branches (Bob and his alleged children, Stannis and Renly), which then proceed to fight one another, what exactly would you expect? Nevertheless, we see some signs of firm, unwavering loyalty. The Onion Knight fulfills his diplomatic mission to  White Harbor faithfully to a fault and seriously risks losing his head in the process. Cortnay Penrose will hold Storm's End for his liege lord, no matter than he's dead and left no heirs. But it's hard to remain loyal to the House Baratheon, if there's three (later two) of them. Things looked different before and during Robert's Rebellion.

Edited by mcb, 12 June 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[Ahmrogar]

Vandalism, on 12 June 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I find it annoying how House Baratheon was established as one of the Great Houses of Westeros yet how nobody brazenly declares themselves for the Baratheons. Allegiances to Stark, Lannister, Greyjoy and Tyrell are pretty pronounced and visible, we don't really know who truly represents House Baratheon in name and for the people of Westeros to know about. Has House Baratheon just dissolved without necessarily being attacked?

Stannis Baratheon in truth represents House Baratheon as its last man, but most people in Westeros do not know this since they think that Cersei's kids are Robert's kids. Add to that the fact that Stannis has a cool new sigil, and I think we can safely say that House Baratheon does not exist in the War of Kings so much as House Stannis Baratheon.

Robert and Renly are dead. Robert was the true head of Baratheon, powerful and unbeatable. Renly was fake and a pawn for House Tyrell, but I guess he did have the stag sigil.

Renly died very quickly, however, and in King's Landing Tommen and co are called the Lannisters by everyone, including themselves. Nobody calls them the Baratheons.

This aspect of the series rather annoys me. Things dissolved just like that.

How is Renly a fake? Moreover, I got the impression he was using the Tyrells, not the other way around n(especially when you hear how Loras speaks of him)

[Silmarien]

Ahmrogar, on 12 June 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

How is Renly a fake? Moreover, I got the impression he was using the Tyrells, not the other way around n(especially when you hear how Loras speaks of him)

Renly was a false pretender because he didn't have any real claim to the throne other than him thinking he'd be a good King.

[Alex Baratheon]

House Baratheon still exists and Stannis is it's lord. A lot of the nobles and the smallfolk believe Stannis' letters, and accept the fact that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are "abominations born of incest" . But they can't do anything about it. If the other Great Houses, like the Tyrells support them and all the others stand by doing nothing.

[Darth Arya]

Out of all the Houses I have to say I really don't like House Baratheon, they have fielded a Usurping,drunken fool who bankrupted the realm, a likeable enough closet gay who may have made an ok King were it not for his in ability to bed his wife and getting murdered before he had even had his first battle and a Conservative pious stick in the mud who I just don't like.

My guess, if Targaryen rule is restored, House Baratheon will be wiped from existence, hopefully Stannis will meet his end at the hands of dragon fire, it's just a shame foolish old King Bob died before he could suffer the same fate, but props to the Lannisters for that one all the same.

[mcb]

Silmarien, on 12 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Renly was a false pretender because he didn't have any real claim to the throne other than him thinking he'd be a good King.

He wasn't a false pretender for this exact reason: he openly stated that he didn't have a good legal claim to the throne, he wanted to take it with the power of Storm's End and Highgarden. To be a false pretender one would need to, well, I dunno, at least tell a lie or something?

[Victaerys]

Well, if all Cersei's children die (childless) as prophesied, then Stannis will be the last Baratheon by name. Unless they legitimise Edric Storm or other of Rober's bastards. Which what would have happened if this was medieval Europe - Westeros is far more crazy about the whole "bastardy" thing. Which is kind of strange, because the reason why bastards were frowned upon historically was they were born out of legitimate Christian wedlock. Yet, people in Westeros seem far less concerned with religion than the real medieval people.

Anyway, everything would be so much funnier if they had access to DNA testing

[Rinso]

Hopefully Targaryen rule is never restored then...

Anyway, seemingly powerful Houses being brought down is an ongoing theme in the series. Actually, out of all the major Great Houses, only the Lannisters, the Tyrells and the Martells are still somewhat strong (and the major Lannisters are dying fast). The Starks, the Tullys and the Baratheons are crushed and the Arryns are this close to becoming extinct.

Edited by Rinso, 12 June 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Darth Arya]

It would make sense though, more than any other House I think the Targaryens are going to want to wipe House Baratheon entirely from existence, I'm not sure they would feel any great love towards the Lannisters but now Lord Tywin is dead and Tyrion may be crucial in Danys plans for Westeros I think they will survive.

[Vandalism]

Stannis the Mannis Baratheon is the best. They just be hatin B|

Anyhow, I wish that at some point in the story Martin would write something that really screamed out "House Baratheon vs House Lannister" instead of "Stannis vs House Lannister".