67 replies to this topic

[Mathis Waters]

She seems like one of the few characters with loyalties that extend beyond her personal reputation and/or family tree. She's ruthless and no fun at parties, but that's arguably just what the realms of men need. She's clearly deluded about a few prophetic particulars, but on the whole seems hardly less competent than the average character. On a meta-level, she's entertaining to read about and occupies a niche without too much competition.

So I figure I'm missing something in terms of all the fan hostility.

[Fire Eater]

Here's why

As Kohl Liang-Weissgerber puts it better than I could:

Quote

One of the notable features of this series is that, just like in real life, people are neither good nor evil, but coloured in shades of grey. Melisandre, however, only seems capable of seeing dichotomies; "A man is good, or he is evil," she says, erroneously. She, of course, thinks she is working for the ultimate good, and has the extremist belief that every action that serves the perceived greater good of her god is justified and necessary, no matter how blatantly evil it appears to be. This type of thinking allows her to perform some of the most heinous acts in the series. She commits murders by spawning shadowy abominations, and is even able to convince the righteous Stannis Baratheon to become a child murderer and kinslayer by sacrificing his own nephew Edric Storm-- Donal Noye had said that Stannis, like iron, would break before bending, which suggests that Melisandre has broken him.

Self-righteousness is an annoying trait in and of itself, but Melisandre's smugness winds us up even more when we consider the fact that the basis upon which she is operating, that Stannis is the prince that was promised, is very likely wrong. She is trying to make him fit into the prophecy however she can, at times resorting to outright fabrications; even an onion knight and a blind man can see that Stannis's sword is not truly Lightbringer. Either Melisandre is committing blatant fraud or her fanaticism has made her delusional. In either case she deserves our contempt.

Edited by Fire Eater, 13 June 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

She's easy to blame for all of Stannis' mistakes see?

[Silmarien]

Mathis Waters, on 13 June 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

She seems like one of the few characters with loyalties that extend beyond her personal reputation and/or family tree. She's ruthless and no fun at parties, but that's arguably just what the realms of men need. She's clearly deluded about a few prophetic particulars, but on the whole seems hardly less competent than the average character. On a meta-level, she's entertaining to read about and occupies a niche without too much competition.

So I figure I'm missing something in terms of all the fan hostility.

Well people are generally opposed to people who advocate burning 11-12 year old children (Edric Storm) for the express purpose of awakening a dragon....

I never hated Mel, especially after her ADwD POV.  She seems quite misguided and like a religious zealot, which is annoying, but not necessarily hate-worthy.

I do hate Ramsay Snow (sociopath who loves torture and flaying human beings alive and raping women) and Roose Bolton (killed Robb and participated in the RW) and Gregor Clegane (loves to rape, kills children, etc), because they have done nasty evil deeds that are unforgivable IMHO.

Hate is such a strong word, though.  I find Ramsay to be the most gak worthy of those three, and even then, I'd rather see him taken out than really mercilessly tortured.

[Silmarien]

Winter, on 13 June 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

She's easy to blame for all of Stannis' mistakes see?

Heh.  Of course, it can't be Stannis the Mannis's fault for losing the Battle of the Blackwater and being so unpopular!  Blame the women!

[Winter's Knight]

Silmarien, on 13 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Heh.  Of course, it can't be Stannis the Mannis's fault for losing the Battle of the Blackwater and being so unpopular!  Blame the women!

I was actually referring to the "Stannis doesn't like burning stuff-that's all Mel!! arguments fans use to defend Stan-but you have a good point as well.

[Silmarien]

Winter, on 13 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I was actually referring to the "Stannis doesn't like burning stuff-that's all Mel!! arguments fans use to defend Stan-but you have a good point as well.

Oh, of course.  That makes more sense, since she wasn't even at the battle of the Blackwater lol.  In fact, doesn't she bring this up, and say if she were there, they would've won?

I didn't even know posters absolve Stannis of Edric Storm's burning because it's all evil seductive Mel's fault.  Yeah, Stannis can't think for himself with her around.

Pfffffffffft.......

[Winter's Knight]

Silmarien, on 13 June 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Oh, of course.  That makes more sense, since she wasn't even at the battle of the Blackwater lol.  In fact, doesn't she bring this up, and say if she were there, they would've won?

I didn't even know posters absolve Stannis of Edric Storm's burning because it's all evil seductive Mel's fault.  Yeah, Stannis can't think for himself with her around.

Pfffffffffft.......

The Vortex of Doom I tell ya.

[Elder Sister]

Because she is dark and full of terrors.  Literally.

[JKeats]

I rather like Mel actually.  She is most likely wrong about Stannis being AA, but she is absolutely right about the true danger facing the world.  She has dedicated her life to confronting a grave threat.  I'm willing to cut her some slack.

Whatever else she is, she is not selfish.  And she is capable of compassion after all, since she contrived to keep Davos' son safe.

[Mathis Waters]

Silmarien, on 13 June 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Yeah, Stannis can't think

This is actually my distinct impression, yeah. (Hopefully she'll find a new Messiah soon?)

[Silmarien]

Winter, on 13 June 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

The Vortex of Doom I tell ya.

LOL.  I thought that was Cersei?  Does Mel have one too?  How do I get one of those?

[Winter's Knight]

Silmarien, on 13 June 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

LOL.  I thought that was Cersei?  Does Mel have one too?  How do I get one of those?

Are you a woman flowered? Then you got one!
Now go seduce some good men!

[Lady of Long Lake]

I've disliked her since she burned the Seven statues. She could defeat the Others single-handedly and I'd still despise her for desecrating other people's Gods.

And then she wanted to barbecue Edric Storm and Mance's baby. I'm sorry to say this because you like her but I feel she's evil AND a fool. You don't kill children and you don't shit on other people's Gods. That's unacceptable behavior LOL!

Edited by Lady of Long Lake, 13 June 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[Silmarien]

Winter, on 13 June 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Are you a woman flowered? Then you got one!
Now go seduce some good men!

Well geez, I wish I'd known about this when I was 13.....goodness.

Wait...how do you seduce people?  Lol.

[Silmarien]

Lady of Long Lake, on 13 June 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I've disliked her since she burned the Seven statues. She could defeat the Others single-handedly and I'd still despise her for desecrating other people's Gods.

And then she wanted to barbecue Edric Storm and Mance's baby. I'm sorry to say this because you like her but I feel she's evil AND a fool. You don't kill children and you don't shit on other people's Gods. That's unacceptable behavior LOL!

But she hasn't barbequed any kids....

She wanted to burn Edric Storm but didn't.

Jon was only guessing when he got Mance's kid out of there.  Mel never even thinks about wanting to burn his son....

ETA:  You'd have HATED the Middle Ages then.  Lots of God-burning during that time, eh?

Edited by Silmarien, 13 June 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[towerofjoy]

Nothing's worse than a misguided fanatic.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Silmarien, on 13 June 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

But she hasn't barbequed any kids....

She wanted to burn Edric Storm but didn't.

Jon was only guessing when he got Mance's kid out of there.  Mel never even thinks about wanting to burn his son....

ETA:  You'd have HATED the Middle Ages then.  Lots of God-burning during that time, eh?

Key word there is "wanted". Davos saved the boy, right? Or am I misremembering. Did Mel change her mind about torching Edric and I forgot?

[Silmarien]

Lady of Long Lake, on 13 June 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Key word there is "wanted". Davos saved the boy, right? Or am I misremembering. Did Mel change her mind about torching Edric and I forgot?

Mel certainly advocated it.  I didn't say she didn't.  Davos did save the boy.  But she did not burn any children.  I'd say actions speak louder than words...if she had burned a child I would dislike her quite a bit.

[facetree]

I actually like Mel. She became a high-ranking priestess with a lot of might from being a slave(I think, because it was implied that slaves are recruited into becoming priests, wasn't there), knows how to wield and keep power(unlike Cersei), knows which people to pick and persuade(Lady Selyse) and has some awesome magic powers.

The only reason I hate her is partially because I'm biased and doesn't like really religious people. Same reason why I hate Lancel. But that's my bias. Otherwise, personality-wise, she's great.