70 replies to this topic

[Drezelle]

Jon Arryn and Lysa lived in KingsLanding while Jon was Hand.  Petyr and Lysa obviously were have secret contact with each other to plot his murder.  I'm sure Lysa was not just blindly following what LF was telling her to do and he had convinced her that he was in love with her and their plot was so they could be married.  I have only read through the books once but it hit me the other day that it is very possible that he got her pregnant (again).

Unless I missed something?

[Silmarien]

I kind of wondered about this too.  It's sort of implied they'd been having an affair, right?

Why doesn't LF think this is possible?

[Drezelle]

Silmarien, on 14 June 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

I kind of wondered about this too.  It's sort of implied they'd been having an affair, right?

Why doesn't LF think this is possible?

Does he not think its possible?  I don't remember him saying anything about it but Its been a while since I read the books.

Edited by Drezelle, 14 June 2012 - 02:07 AM.

[Silmarien]

Drezelle, on 14 June 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Does he not think its possible?  I don't remember him saying anything about it but Its been a while since I read the books.

He seems to operate as if it isn't true.  Why else tell Sansa that Sweetrobin won't survive the winter?

[Drezelle]

Silmarien, on 14 June 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

He seems to operate as if it isn't true.  Why else tell Sansa that Sweetrobin won't survive the winter?

He may not know Sweetrobin is his or he is well aware but does not care.  I'm just thinking that from Lysa's view she would rather have LF's child than Jons and would try her best to make that happen, Cersei style!!  

Edited by Drezelle, 14 June 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Silmarien]

If Lysa knew for sure, wouldn't she have told LF?  It seems like she confided everything to him.

I dunno, maybe it's just that the child had uncertain paternity and SR looks enough like Jon Arryn for Lysa to assume it's his?  

[Caris]

This is something I hadn't considered, but it's definitely possible (and, as you suggest, even likely). As far as the implied threat on little RA, he is sort of problematic as an heir--if he isn't the late Jon Arryn's kid, he isn't useful in securing the Vale. As is, he's weak and sickly 8-year-old, which doesn't inspire much confidence--hence the uprising of the lords of the Vale. It would be better for LF if Sweetrobin died and Harry the Heir married Sansa (even as Alayne), who would recommend him as a friend and mentor to her new husband. Considering Lysa was just a pawn to him, the small matter of her disabled child, who is in the way of his plans, being his son is unlikely to stir up any warm feelings.

[Silmarien]

Caris, on 14 June 2012 - 02:33 AM, said:

This is something I hadn't considered, but it's definitely possible (and, as you suggest, even likely). As far as the implied threat on little RA, he is sort of problematic as an heir--if he isn't the late Jon Arryn's kid, he isn't useful in securing the Vale. As is, he's weak and sickly 8-year-old, which doesn't inspire much confidence--hence the uprising of the lords of the Vale. It would be better for LF if Sweetrobin died and Harry the Heir married Sansa (even as Alayne), who would recommend him as a friend and mentor to her new husband. Considering Lysa was just a pawn to him, the small matter of her disabled child, who is in the way of his plans, being his son is unlikely to stir up any warm feelings.

Geez that's cold....but probably true.

I dunno if there's any way LF could ever find this info out, with Lysa dead, also, so it could just be conjecture.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Ultimately, I don't think Littlefinger would care about any children but the ones he could give his own name.

And probably only as a measure of himself.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I doubt LF was banging Lysa- he just wouldn't be able to have her keep her mouth shut in that case, and in anyway sooner or later Varys would find out, leaving him in the eunuch's hands, and he didn't had any sexual interest in her to make him unable to restrain himself.

[Lyanna Stark]

Silmarien, on 14 June 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

Geez that's cold....but probably true.

I dunno if there's any way LF could ever find this info out, with Lysa dead, also, so it could just be conjecture.

I think the larger question is: would Littlefinger care? I think the answer is no. He's cold, ruthless and only cares about himself. Whether or not Sweetrobin is his real son or not doesn't really come in to it.

[Athanasius Pernath]

Winterfell is Burning, on 14 June 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

I doubt LF was banging Lysa- he just wouldn't be able to have her keep her mouth shut in that case, and in anyway sooner or later Varys would find out, leaving him in the eunuch's hands, and he didn't had any sexual interest in her to make him unable to restrain himself.

this. for a genius and amazing actor like Petyr, is easy to show himself at Lysa's eyes like a man who's suffering in resisting the temptation of banging her in KL
on the other hands, it is explicitly said in the books that Robyn's fragility is the result of the first forced miscarriage of Lysa, which left her almost unable to have children? yeah is quite obvious, but i don't remember if she ever said explicitly something about that..

[Silmarien]

Athanasius Pernath, on 14 June 2012 - 04:42 AM, said:

this. for a genius and amazing actor like Petyr, is easy to show himself at Lysa's eyes like a man who's suffering in resisting the temptation of banging her in KL
on the other hands, it is explicitly said in the books that Robyn's fragility is the result of the first forced miscarriage of Lysa, which left her almost unable to have children? yeah is quite obvious, but i don't remember if she ever said explicitly something about that..

I don't remember that being said explicitly anywhere.

I happen to think it was Jon Arryn's problem.  60+ year old men aren't known for having great sperm count and motility.  And his first two wives were barren?  Really?  Two?  One, okay, sure.  But two?

Also, epilepsy is partially genetic (assuming that's what SR has).  Whatever his ailment is was probably not caused by Lysa having a messed up womb.

Why haven't any of the other women who use moon tea had issues with their fertility?  Wouldn't that be a reason to avoid moon tea?

[Lyanna Stark]

Winterfell is Burning, on 14 June 2012 - 02:47 AM, said:

I doubt LF was banging Lysa- he just wouldn't be able to have her keep her mouth shut in that case, and in anyway sooner or later Varys would find out, leaving him in the eunuch's hands, and he didn't had any sexual interest in her to make him unable to restrain himself.

She sort of let it slip though at the wedding, where she says something like "All these years of silence, now I mean to scream". I guess you could interpret it as Lysa being silent about her adoration for Littlefinger in general, or you could interpret it as them having to be silent about meeting in secret, and silent while shagging so as to not raise suspicion. Personally I always saw it as a roundabout way to indicate Lysa and LF had some sort of sexual relationship between the incident at Riverrun and when Sansa arrived at the Eyrie.

We also know Jon Arryn was unable to father any children on two previous wives. We also know LF has impregnated Lysa before, albeit the harsh treatment with Tansy tea may have damaged her capacity to get pregnant and carry to term. Still it seems more likely that LF, who we definitely know for a fact is fertile, is the father of Sweetrobin given that it's unlikely two Arryn wives in a row would be infertile.

(As a sidenote, fertility in Westeros seems superwonky, with Cat getting knocked up almost immidiately, and same for Lysa originally, while for instance Tyrion whores a lot and has no bastards and Gregor Clegane was about to marry a third wife but has no heirs that we know of.  )

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 14 June 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Lummel]

I thought Lysa had some stillbirths too (not that it has much bearing as either Petyr or Jon could have been the father)?

[Silmarien]

Lysa mentions 5 stillbirths, 3 sons and 3 daughters total (counting SR).  That definitely seems to be a side-effect of Tansy tea (causing more miscarriages).  I just don't think epilepsy is a birth defect....

[Athanasius Pernath]

Silmarien, on 14 June 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

Why haven't any of the other women who use moon tea had issues with their fertility?  Wouldn't that be a reason to avoid moon tea?

probably moon tea, well-prepared by maester and in small doses is not a problem.

i suppose that Hoster didn't find out immediatly about Lysa's pregnancy, so maybe they had to force the abortion using a very strong dose that compromised her fertility
and yeah, as i said i always thought that Lysa's problem in having children was Tansy-related ^^

Edited by Athanasius Pernath, 14 June 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[The Last Valyrian]

Lyanna Stark, on 14 June 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

We also know Jon Arryn was unable to father any children on two previous wives. We also know LF has impregnated Lysa before, albeit the harsh treatment with Tansy tea may have damaged her capacity to get pregnant and carry to term. Still it seems more likely that LF, who we definitely know for a fact is fertile, is the father of Sweetrobin given that it's unlikely two Arryn wives in a row would be infertile.

(As a sidenote, fertility in Westeros seems superwonky, with Cat getting knocked up almost immidiately, and same for Lysa originally, while for instance Tyrion whores a lot and has no bastards and Gregor Clegane was about to marry a third wife but has no heirs that we know of.  )

This is awesome. Great find!

The whole first paragraph has got to be the most damning evidence. If Jon Aryn wasn't able to beget children on his previous two wives what would make Lysa Tully any different? Tyrion and Shae should be example enough that a situation like this could could happen in KL.

[aryana]

Lyanna Stark, on 14 June 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

(As a sidenote, fertility in Westeros seems superwonky, with Cat getting knocked up almost immidiately, and same for Lysa originally, while for instance Tyrion whores a lot and has no bastards and Gregor Clegane was about to marry a third wife but has no heirs that we know of.  )

I always thought of moon tea as a precautious medicine, like post-coitum pills nowadays, something whores drank regulary and other women if they didn't want the child, but very soon after conception. With Lysa I think it was more of an abortion, she must had been quite pregnant and that's why she had complications later on. She surely didn't tell her father right away.

But I find it more interesting how come Catelyn didn't know. They were together in Riverrun, but she didn't notice her sister in bed for some while and bleeding.

[Silmarien]

aryana, on 14 June 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I always thought of moon tea as a precautious medicine, like post-coitum pills nowadays, something whores drank regulary and other women if they didn't want the child, but very soon after conception. With Lysa I think it was more of an abortion, she must had been quite pregnant and that's why she had complications later on. She surely didn't tell her father right away.

But I find it more interesting how come Catelyn didn't know. They were together in Riverrun, but she didn't notice her sister in bed for some while and bleeding.

I think this is weird also.  Lysa was visibly pregnant and Cat never noticed?  Cat wasn't even married yet!