190 replies to this topic

[Kittyhat]

I've been wrestling with this question lately, and I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the matter.  As well, I want to preface this by saying that even if the answer is "no," that doesn't make the series bad as such, any more than an optimistic story is bad just because it may be more optimistic than is truly realistic.  Rather, I'm posing this question because people go on so much about how exceptionally realistic they believe A Song of Ice and Fire is, and I'm wondering whether that's really a fair description of the story as a whole.

I mean, for example, in thinking back over the series so far, I seem to recall that that a solid majority of weddings have ended with body counts, one of them a rather sizeable one.  In comparing this with reality, I can't recall a time when I attended a wedding and then breathed a massive sigh of relief when, by the end of the event, no one had died.  And while a part of that may be attributed to the modern environment in which I live, I can't really convince myself that weddings, historically, were commonly violent and bloody affairs.

Another example would be, well, Slaver's Bay in general.  I mean, the Unsullied? Young boys castrated and made to kill puppies? Really? I get that slavery in one form or another has existed as long as human civilization has, and I get why people today hate it so much, but isn't this just a tiny bit over the top?

Then of course there are the many cases throughout (here, for the sake of brevity and my sanity, I'm not going to try to offer specific examples) where Martin has made us think something good is finally just about to happen and then ...! It's all a setup for something terrible that ruins all of the good and then some.  And this happens so frequently that it's commonly remarked on by the fans, in fact, in a sort of wryly joking way.  Moreover, it seems to happen in a sort of reverse Laser-Guided Karma way, a fact that also seems to get remarked on from time to time.

These are just a few examples, of course, of what I'm getting at, but it does seem to me that Martin's world may be skewed toward the "excessively pessimistic" end of things rather than being quite so realistic as many want to believe.

But what I'm really seeking is the opinions of others on this matter.  Am I alone in questioning the "realistic" nature of Martin's degree of pessimism?

Edited by Kittyhat, 16 June 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Sword and Fire]

I think so, yes. Maybe not specific examples, but in general I think life is full of pain and sadness that far outweighs the good. It's one of the primary reasons I don't fear death.

I also think humans are pretty pathetic, so it doesn't shock me that the world is a cold, dark place.

[theguyfromtheVale]

I agree that Martin's world is a crapsack one. However, when talking about realism, we should really make clear what we mean by that. Pure realism, where everything has to be as it is in our world, necessarily fails in fantasy. Dragons and zombies aren't realistic. The political 'realism' of the series might well be called cynicism, but then there were excessively violent episodes of human (and particularly, western) history. The Wars of the Roses lasted for thirty years, and included child murder and other not-so-nice events, to name just one example. However, where Martin's world really is realistic is in the psychological impact of the environment on people.

Ultimately, I would say that Martin, while writing under the fantasy banner, has taken quite a number of leaves of the classical realist writers of the 19th century and meshed that with his fantasy world.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

It is quite dark.
Maybe it is a case of preemptive Karma.
All the bad has to happen before the long summer, when everything and everyone will be nice.

[Kittyhat]

theguyfromtheVale, on 16 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

I agree that Martin's world is a crapsack one. However, when talking about realism, we should really make clear what we mean by that. Pure realism, where everything has to be as it is in our world, necessarily fails in fantasy. Dragons and zombies aren't realistic.

Fair enough.  To clarify, within the context of this thread, "realism" will assume acceptance of the presence of fantastic things that exist in the world setting (dragons, magic, ice zombies, etc.) that we have no justifiable reason to believe exist in our own.  The mere existence of these things in and of itself within the story need not concern us for the purposes of this discussion.

Edited by Kittyhat, 16 June 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Khal Pono]

Believable and believability might be more precise terms than realistic and realism.

lower case-r realism can easily be confused with capital-r Realism (also see Naturalism), which is a form of literature where horrible stuff happens, almost by definition

[Kittyhat]

Khal Pono, on 16 June 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

lower case-r realism can easily be confused with capital-r Realism (also see Naturalism), which is a form of literature where horrible stuff happens, almost by definition

That's not quite how I'd characterize literary realism, but let's please try not to stray from the topic at hand.  I'm going to allow myself the assumption that a reasonable reader is capable of understanding the intent of the thread without requiring a series of carefully worded clarifications written as though I were a lawyer drawing up a contract.

Edited by Kittyhat, 16 June 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[SerMixalot]

Life IS Pain, Princess.  Anyone who says differently is trying to sell something.

[SerMixalot]

I believe GRRM mentioned in an interview being inspired by a religon with 2 gods, one good and one bad.  The bad one was the one who created the world.

Kind of puts into perspective Westeros and Essos

[Khal Pono]

Kittyhat, on 16 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

That's not quite how I'd characterize literary realism, but let's please try not to stray from the topic at hand.  I'm going to allow myself the assumption that a reasonable reader is capable of understanding the intent of the thread without requiring a series of carefully worded clarifications written as though I were a lawyer drawing up a contract.

well... the second response in this  thread indicated that she/he indeed wasn't quite clear what you meant, so maybe that's not the right assumption to make.

to make it less technical, i think "realism" almost implies that the book world resembles the actual world; while believability refers to what could plausibly happen given what we know of the make-believe world.

anyway, I basically agree that GRRM's details (like the puppy kililng or, say, Ramsay locking Lady Hornwood in the tower until she eats her own fingers, or all the gang-rapes, etc.) are over-the-top in terms of how depressing, bleak and dark they are.

That's one of the reasons I like the series.  GRRM gives the world an almost nightmarish, horror-movie quality but balances this with characters you care deeply for as well as with humor, and very "realistic" mundane details (food, music, etc.) that help ground the reader solidly in the make-believe world.

GRRM is definitely a writer in the sci-fi and horror genres as well as fantasy, and the best sci-fi and horror often has a lot of imaginatively grisly and nightmarish scenarios.  So I would say writers from Dante to Poe to Stephen King have played on our fascination and secret delight in the macabre but also infused their stories with characters or scenarios we could relate to.

Edited by Khal Pono, 16 June 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Valyrian Breakdancing]

He does provide an exceptionally bleak world, but I think the idea is just to convey how fickle power can be and that heroes and villains in the traditional sense never really existed or indeed, exist.

As for the wedding issues, that seems like a fairly trivial thing to focus on, and according to Martin the Red Wedding was actually inspired by the murder of a Scottish clan leader invited to dinner by the king with the promise of safe conduct, so actually the realism there is more profound than you're claiming it to be.
Maybe none of us have ever witnessed a massacre at a wedding, but the idea of even a supposedly joyous occasion being marred by bloodshed and treachery fits in completely with the world Martin has crafted without seeming particularly far-fetched.

As for the Unsullied, there were millions of slaves in the Ancient East and plenty of huge slave armies, and a lot of eunuchs. So why is it so unrealistic that they should have gelded slave armies?

I also think its probably prudent to point out that it is still a fantasy series, when people call the books realistic I think the implication is that it should be followed with the suffix: "...for a fantasy series."

[bloodymime]

http://scottbrownsce...n_auschwitz.gif

[Howling Mad]

IMO the current level of pessimism is due in large measure to the presecene of war and revolution.  The years between Robert's Rebellion and AGOT seemed to be peaceful and optimistic.

Edited by Howling4Reed, 16 June 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Howling Mad]

bloodymime, on 16 June 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

http://scottbrownsce...n_auschwitz.gif

Your point?

[SerMixalot]

There must be a great deal of pessimism amoungst the small folk

[Kittyhat]

SerMixalot, on 16 June 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Life IS Pain, Princess.  Anyone who says differently is trying to sell something.

I see what you did there.  Here's another movie quote:

"You are wrong if you think that the joy of life comes principally from human relationships.  God’s placed it all around us, it’s in everything, in anything we can experience.  People just need to change the way they look at those things."

Now that I've also quoted a movie, does my position on the other side of this fence suddenly have more weight?

Here's another quote I like better, actually, and not from a movie at all, but rather from a particular book of which I'm fond:

"Once there was a certain man who was very clever, but it was his character to always see the negative points of his jobs.  In such a way, one will be useless.  If one does not get it into his head from the very beginning that the world is full of unseemly situations, for the most part his demeanor will be poor and he will not be believed by others.  And if one is not believed by others, no matter how good a person he may be, he will not have the essence of a good person.  This can also be considered as a blemish."

Ah well.  Moving on ...

Valyrian Breakdancing, on 16 June 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

He does provide an exceptionally bleak world, but I think the idea is just to convey how fickle power can be and that heroes and villains in the traditional sense never really existed or indeed, exist.

Oh, but they do.  They do, even in his dark and bleak story.  Tywin, Littlefinger, Joffrey, Roose, Ramsey and more ... perhaps they're not twirling moustaches, wearing black hats, and hiding out in secret underground "villain" lairs, but they're fundamentally villains, oh yes.  Oh yes, very much so, they are.  The existence of "gray" does not presuppose the nonexistence of "white" and "black."  In fact, the concept of anything "gray" cannot even be spoken of coherently without first admitting the existence of "white" and "black"!

Nor, furthermore, does "gray" only come in one shade.

Quote

As for the wedding issues, that seems like a fairly trivial thing to focus on, and according to Martin the Red Wedding was actually inspired by the murder of a Scottish clan leader invited to dinner by the king with the promise of safe conduct, so actually the realism there is more profound than you're claiming it to be.

It's more the extent to which every single such event seems to end similarly.  At some point, it ceases to be shocking and becomes instead almost predictable in the horror movie sense.  Just like I can watch a slasher flick and predict that two people having sex are going to die, so I can read A Song of Ice and Fire and predict, during any given wedding, that something terrible will happen or is happening.

Quote

As for the Unsullied, there were millions of slaves in the Ancient East and plenty of huge slave armies, and a lot of eunuchs.

Eunuchs, yes.  You don't see me objecting to Varys.  Slaves, yes.  But all of that mashed together with killing puppies on top?

Edited by Kittyhat, 16 June 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[RoamingRonin]

Yes, it's believable -- I could cite a few historical examples. Some events might stretch our suspension of disbelief but the series could very well happen in our real world... that is, if you don't count the magical elements and such.

[theguyfromtheVale]

But really, there's not the vast majority of weddings with a body count; they are actually the minority. Basically, there's only the Red and Purple Weddings and Ramsay's sham. We might add Dany's Dothraki wedding, but then the Dothraki are a very violent culture, and there are still cultures today where people shoot their guns during the wedding, often resulting in casualties (particularly when alcohol is involved). But then on the other hand, we have quite a number of weddings that work out pretty well, even if the marriages sometimes don't. Tyrion and Sansa don't see anyone die at their wedding. Neither do Petyr and Lysa, Robb and Jeyne (as far as we know), Dany and Hizdahr, Sigorn and Alys, Renly and Margaery (as far as we know),...

As for kings being killed at feasts: well, as king's they are more prone to assassination attempts in the first place, and feasts do give an assassin quite good cover if he knows what he's doing: there's just too many suspects...

[jarl the climber]

In more recent times and I think the practice ended sometime around the 16th century or so is that choir groups would buy young boys from poor families and then castrate them and train them to sing soprano, they were called castrati. I guess they didn't have to kill puppies and babies but still a pretty brutal practice.

[Khal Pono]

RoamingRonin, on 16 June 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Yes, it's believable -- I could cite a few historical examples. Some events might stretch our suspension of disbelief but the series could very well happen in our real world... that is, if you don't count the magical elements and such.

Yes, but I think the OP's question is not so much *could* these horrible things happen at all, nor about asking whether things this bad have ever happened--it's more about asking *would* things this nasty happen as OFTEN and as INEVITABLY as they do in GRRM's world.

On only a very loosely related note, did anyone think of the scene of Biter eating Brienne's face when that news story came out about the dude in Florida who was hopped up on "bath salts" ate a homeless person's face before he was shot to death, by a policeman named Gendry, no doubt.

Edited by Khal Pono, 16 June 2012 - 06:37 PM.