430 replies to this topic

[Angalin]

Quotes from the last thread:

PromisedPrince, on 17 June 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

i think ashara dayne and ned starks brother were in love and that when she heard of his death and how he died she couldnt take the grief and killed herself. heres a quote from the tourney at harrenhal were ashara dayne and ned stark supposedly met

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance...with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf on his brother too shy to leave his bench."

the wild wolf is brandon, neds brother, and the quiet wolf is ned. notice how brandon spoke to her to dance with ned on behalf of his little brother (im assuming this is because they knew each other already or there romance started from there on), it also says that shes got purple eyes and its known that the daynes have the same traits as targaryens (purple eyes silver hair) it would make perfect sense for ned to plant this rumour once he found out that shed killed herself just incase his nephew jon snow developed silver hair or purple eyes...

rmholt, on 17 June 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

I think likely



I could see that happening.  GRRM would do it to further a plot - maybe by starting the war in Slavers Bay and getting all the elements in motion she just takes off eastward or otherwise drops from the story.



She is trying so hard.  My personal opinion is she hasnt quite got it to be a ruler - no one to teach her really - but she is close.  I could see her fleeing the responsibility for a while if she is overwhelmed, undergoing some sort of revelation that she doesnt HAVE to be ruler of Westeros (it wasnt the Targ home of origin anyway - maybe valyria has something to offer), falling off the dragon, dying of flux, allying with Dothraki.  Once she gets rid of the baggage of her followers, either by deserting them or by detaching from them when making decisions, she'll do better and her POVs will become less arduous.

The Dany story really is more than whether or not she has any persistent supernatural powers.  I kind of like the thought that her special fireproof incident was incited by the presence of dragons. They seem to be inciting all sorts of phenomena, some relating to fire (the fire walker, the wildfire spells, Mel feeling stronger (or is the the Wall) the glass candles, etc.

She doesnt need to think she is fireproof - her burned hands prove that - and her ducking Drogon's flames.  She relates her burned hair to the previous episode but is smart enough to know it is just a coincidence, tho fraught with emotion.

Baelor Blackfyre, on 17 June 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Really? Her fate is in Westeros, whether that be queen or dead. For five books now her primary goal, the one thing that has been driving her forward, has been to go home. Simple as that.

"If I look back I am lost"

As you were.

[The Snowman]

Well in my eyes Jon's mother has to be 'someone' of importance seemingly because Jon is such an integral part of this story and it simply hasn't been cleared up and with all the secrecy. If it was just some girl that Ned Stark met while at war then why wouldn't he tell Jon that. It wouldn't be hard to have a quiet minute alone and talk to him rather than never say anything and let Jon go to the Wall while he goes to the complete other side of the Kingdom. Also, if Ned hadn't died in KL then it would've been at least a couple of years before Ned and Jon could've seen each other.

Anyway I am a firm believer in the R+L=J theory mainly because of the intrigue of Ned's thoughts concerning Lyanna in the Tower of Joy and those recollections by Barristan about the Harrenhal Tourney and the queen of love and beauty scene. However my main reasoning behind believing this theory is that Jon 'knows nothing' about his mother and that Ned is pretty sensitive about the subject with Catelyn and Robert, also big question of why was there 3 members of the KingsGuard including its Lord Commander 'guarding' a kidnap victim throughout the war while Rheagar took 3 with him to the battle of the trident and only the youngest of the KG Jaime Lannister was left alone to defend the the King, Queen, 2 princesses and a baby prince. What could have been so important about Lyanna Stark that 3 KG were stationed in the TOJ to 'protect/guard' her?

Going along with that Lyana was found on a bed of blood. Sounds like childbirth to me, Jon is just younger than Robb is he not(someone help me out on this one) but the are both classified as almost 15 at the beginning of AGOT. So Ned got Catelyn pregnant then went to war and almost instantly broke his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Seems to me that the likelihood of Jon being conceived by Ned practically straight after marrying Catelyn and siring Robb just doesn't fit very well, especially with Ned's character.

Just something on the possibility of Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother. Going back on how Jon and Robb are very close in age, how would Ned get Catelyn pregnant then get Ashara Dayne pregnant within 2-3 weeks. Unless Jon was a few weeks late and Robb was a fair bit early I don't see how Ned or Brandon Stark could've sired Jon with Ashara Dayne.

So just going on those points, personally for the story and the build up to mean anything Jon is the song of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark.
Also believe that Lyanna was not kidnapped and went willingly with Rheagar whom according to Cersei made Jaime look like a stableboy and in AGOT Jaime is described as being the best looking man in the 7 Kingdoms and Rheagar did name Lyanna the queen of love and beauty in front of his wife and mother of his children and not to mention the rest of the nobility of Westeros. Quite a bit of a statement of affection .  Well just my 2 cents worth.

[Lord Paramount of Essos]

i really have no time to read all the 26 threads so can someone please point the arguements that COUNTER this theory?

[FrozenFire3]

Snowman93, on 17 June 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Well in my eyes Jon's mother has to be 'someone' of importance seemingly because Jon is such an integral part of this story and it simply hasn't been cleared up and with all the secrecy. If it was just some girl that Ned Stark met while at war then why wouldn't he tell Jon that. It wouldn't be hard to have a quiet minute alone and talk to him rather than never say anything and let Jon go to the Wall while he goes to the complete other side of the Kingdom. Also, if Ned hadn't died in KL then it would've been at least a couple of years before Ned and Jon could've seen each other.

Anyway I am a firm believer in the R+L=J theory mainly because of the intrigue of Ned's thoughts concerning Lyanna in the Tower of Joy and those recollections by Barristan about the Harrenhal Tourney and the queen of love and beauty scene. However my main reasoning behind believing this theory is that Jon 'knows nothing' about his mother and that Ned is pretty sensitive about the subject with Catelyn and Robert, also big question of why was there 3 members of the KingsGuard including its Lord Commander 'guarding' a kidnap victim throughout the war while Rheagar took 3 with him to the battle of the trident and only the youngest of the KG Jaime Lannister was left alone to defend the the King, Queen, 2 princesses and a baby prince. What could have been so important about Lyanna Stark that 3 KG were stationed in the TOJ to 'protect/guard' her?

Going along with that Lyana was found on a bed of blood. Sounds like childbirth to me, Jon is just younger than Robb is he not(someone help me out on this one) but the are both classified as almost 15 at the beginning of AGOT. So Ned got Catelyn pregnant then went to war and almost instantly broke his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Seems to me that the likelihood of Jon being conceived by Ned practically straight after marrying Catelyn and siring Robb just doesn't fit very well, especially with Ned's character.

Just something on the possibility of Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother. Going back on how Jon and Robb are very close in age, how would Ned get Catelyn pregnant then get Ashara Dayne pregnant within 2-3 weeks. Unless Jon was a few weeks late and Robb was a fair bit early I don't see how Ned or Brandon Stark could've sired Jon with Ashara Dayne.

So just going on those points, personally for the story and the build up to mean anything Jon is the song of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark.
Also believe that Lyanna was not kidnapped and went willingly with Rheagar whom according to Cersei made Jaime look like a stableboy and in AGOT Jaime is described as being the best looking man in the 7 Kingdoms and Rheagar did name Lyanna the queen of love and beauty in front of his wife and mother of his children and not to mention the rest of the nobility of Westeros. Quite a bit of a statement of affection .  Well just my 2 cents worth.

There are so many hints pointing towards R+L=J. For a start I could never believe a man like Eddard Stark, who had just wed a young Catelyn Tully, got her pregnant and rode off to war, would come back a year later with a bastard he had fathered. It was oh-so-not-Ned. He is so honourable (kind of family, duty honour)... but of course, during war, anything can happen. Even a man like him could have made a mistake. But there are further clues.
In book one, Ned often finds himself thinking of his dead sister, Lyanna. Somehow whenever he thinks of her, he always thinks of Rhaegar too. Of course one would think Ned blames him for her death, because he raped her etc. But he never insults him, never says anything against him (unlike his good friend Robert Baratheon). He respects him, in a way. When he thinks of Lyanna, he always remembers those words Promise me, Ned. What could this possibly mean? Probably to keep her child safe from harm?
And Rhaegar, what about him? Well, he passed right in front of his wife at Harrenhal and crowned Lyanna Stark queen of love and beauty. He apparently kidnapped a year later and when the time came, left three men of King's guard to protect her in the tower of joy. He then fought at the trident and died, protecting the woman he loved... could it be Elia? Not likely. She was far away in King's Landing and Rhaegar might have been married to her, but he probably never loved her. Ser Barristan says: "I know the prince was very fond of her." Fond.
Then of course Lyanna was found "in a bed of blood"... died in childbirth in her bed.
Also, in book one, Robert tells Ned (I can't find the exact quote): but Rhaegar won, he had her.
Finally, there's Benjen, the little brother who suddenly "ran off" to the wall, right after the war for some unknown reasons. Ben and Lyanna were the younger children of Rickard Stark. Might have been quite close. In the tourney at Harrenhal, who was the knight of the laughing tree? Ben? Lyanna? Or both... it is quite probable they shared secrets, secret plans too? Ben might have known all along, better than Ned and mostly before Ned. When she died, he might have blamed himself and/or disagreed with Ned on his plans for Jon's safekeeping.
Ok, sorry for the exceptionally long post xD I just had to write this...

[Thendel]

Lord Paramount of Essos, on 17 June 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

i really have no time to read all the 26 threads so can someone please point the arguements that COUNTER this theory?

I'm a proponent of the theory, but from what I've seen from the latest threads:

1. Ned was in love with Ashara and fathered Jon (of which we have no indications other than hearsay).

2. R+L=J is too "obvious" (which is odd for a theory that about 80-90% of readers never pick up on before reading these boards, and which has only be contructed by gathering small indication that together frame a larger picture).

3. Ned refers to Robb and Jon as "my sons" once in front of his household in Game.

4. Jon doesn't have the Targaeryen looks.

5. Jon looks exactly like Ned.

6. The blue rose in the Wall merely symbolizes a Stark, not Lyanna and her son in particular.

Needless to say, I remain convinced.

Edited by Thendel, 17 June 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Lord Paramount of Essos, on 17 June 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

i really have no time to read all the 26 threads so can someone please point the arguements that COUNTER this theory?

As far as I know, the only arguments that counter this theory is that other characters have called other women Jon Snow's mother.  Cat thought it was Ashara, Robert thought it was Wylla, Edric Dayne says it was Wylla, and Godric Borrell says it was the daughter of a fisherman.

Arguments readers give to counter the theory are Jon got burnt and Targs are fireproof (which is false), Jon doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes (which doesn't mean he isn't half Targ as there are Targs who didn't have the Targ look) or that they hate the theory just because.

[Sworn Shield]

I just read Barristans' Kingbreaker POV chapter and realised that Ashara Dayne does not have platinum blonde hair that I always thought she did. Here is the extract from the chapter of Barristan describing Ashara Dayne:

"Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, even the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes".

Edited by kazad, 17 June 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Lady Hummingbird]

How could the rose be only a Stark? The blue rose has always been linked to Lyanna in the books, not the Stark household.

It was her favorite flower, Rhaegar crowns her with them, Ned found her dying surrounded by blue roses, when Ned dreams of her there are always roses involved. The blue rose growing in the Wall is clearly Lyanna's "seed" as a symbol for her son.

[mog]

Sorry to intrude once more but  what is 'honourable' about allowing a fifteen year old boy to go to the wall and swear his life away without telling him of his extraordinary parentage and heritage.
Keeping a child safe is one thing but to deny a youth his possible claim to a kingdom is another.
To me not excusable and not honourable and i refuse to believe Jon's continued  ignorance of his birthright is what either of his parents would have wanted if R +L.
And just how 'safe' was letting him go to the wall?
So far it has nearly killed him a dozen or more times. It was very unsafe at the best of times.
He would have been far safer at Winterfell or a dozen other places.
To keep him 'safe' is an excuse to justify the anything but honourable conduct by his uncle by those blinkered or those in denial.

[theguyfromtheVale]

I don't think Ned intended for Jon to claim the throne, ever.

The fact of the matter is, Jon couldn't stay in Winterfell once Ned decided to go to KL. Cat didn't accept him. And Jon himself wanted to go to the wall. Additionally, at the wall Jon could never be a threat to Robert's rule, so he would be safe from his wrath if the truth ever came out. All in all, Ned was dealt a bad hand and had to decide when Jon decided for himself and Ned had to accept that it was a better solution than most alternatives.

[Lord Paramount of Essos]

thanks

[Dr. Pepper]

mog, on 17 June 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Sorry to intrude once more but  what is 'honourable' about allowing a fifteen year old boy to go to the wall and swear his life away without telling him of his extraordinary parentage and heritage.
Keeping a child safe is one thing but to deny a youth his possible claim to a kingdom is another.
To me not excusable and not honourable and i refuse to believe Jon's continued  ignorance of his birthright is what either of his parents would have wanted if R +L.
And just how 'safe' was letting him go to the wall?
So far it has nearly killed him a dozen or more times. It was very unsafe at the best of times.
He would have been far safer at Winterfell or a dozen other places.
To keep him 'safe' is an excuse to justify the anything but honourable conduct by his uncle by those blinkered or those in denial.

Jon wanted to go to the wall.  Cat would not allow Jon to stay in Winterfell and Ned could not bring him to King's Landing.  Jon's desire to go to the wall (an honorable pursuit by Stark standards) lifted a great deal of stress about what other arrangements Ned should make for Jon.  I have a feeling that if Jon wanted to marry the miller's daughter and set up shop as the next miller, Ned would have allowed it.

What's so dishonorable about Ned not telling his adopted son about his true parentage?  Is it dishonorable for any adoptive parent to keep their children's biological origins a secret, especially if revealing that secret means that they will be given a sure death?  Would Jon really have been safer if the secret of his mother and father was revealed?  Would he have been any safer anywhere in Westeros?  I mean, HELLO, a war broke out throughout the continent, Winterfell was razed, Robb died, Arya is missing, Sansa is a hostage, Bran and Rickon are presumed dead.

Lyanna obviously had Ned promise her something.  What would that promise be other than to keep her son safe so that he can live a life?  How could Ned fulfill this promise other than keeping his Targaryen heritage a secret?  I hope you are aware that keeping someone safe doesn't mean that you lock them in a tower and not allowing them to live their life.  Jon could have be killed by anything....a lightning strike, a fall from a horse, a festering wound, greyscale.  Keeping someone safe means protecting them the best you can against known threats.  Robert Baratheon was the known threat.  It's pretty obvious that Robert's hatred of Targs runs so deep that he would have sent someone to kill Jon if he had known he had a claim to his throne.

You have to remember that Ned isn't just responsible to only Jon.  He has a responsibility to his wife and biological children, to the people of Winterfell and to all the people in the North, not to mention the Baratheon King he swore fealty to.  It's not like Ned knew Jon existed before he swore fealty to Robert.  What if he told Jon and Jon wanted to claim his birthright?  Would the North support Jon the Targaryen?  Obviously not.  Their loyalty is to the Starks, their liege lord.  What if Jon goes south and rallies Dorne and the Reach and declares war on the throne?  Ned's oath of fealty to Robert means that he's duty-bound to defend him against any attacks on his throne.  Which side is Ned going to ask his people to fight for?


I think keeping Jon's heritage a secret was the most honorable thing Ned could have done.  It kept him safe from the known threat, it kept his family safe from being declared traitors for harboring a known Targaryen and it kept his subjects safe from being called to fight yet another war.

[FrozenFire3]

theguyfromtheVale, on 17 June 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

I don't think Ned intended for Jon to claim the throne, ever.

The fact of the matter is, Jon couldn't stay in Winterfell once Ned decided to go to KL. Cat didn't accept him. And Jon himself wanted to go to the wall. Additionally, at the wall Jon could never be a threat to Robert's rule, so he would be safe from his wrath if the truth ever came out. All in all, Ned was dealt a bad hand and had to decide when Jon decided for himself and Ned had to accept that it was a better solution than most alternatives.

  It was Jon's choice to go to the wall. Ned accepted because Jon is free to choose what he wants to do with his life and because it was probably the easiest way to keep him safe now that he was gone. Plus, there really was no other way: as you said Cat didn't want him in Winterfell and he couldn't go to KL.

Dr. Pepper, on 17 June 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Lyanna obviously had Ned promise her something.  What would that promise be other than to keep her son safe so that he can live a life?  How could Ned fulfill this promise other than keeping his Targaryen heritage a secret?  I hope you are aware that keeping someone safe doesn't mean that you lock them in a tower and not allowing them to live their life.  Jon could have be killed by anything....a lightning strike, a fall from a horse, a festering wound, greyscale.  Keeping someone safe means protecting them the best you can against known threats.  Robert Baratheon was the known threat.  It's pretty obvious that Robert's hatred of Targs runs so deep that he would have sent someone to kill Jon if he had known he had a claim to his throne.

You have to remember that Ned isn't just responsible to only Jon.  He has a responsibility to his wife and biological children, to the people of Winterfell and to all the people in the North, not to mention the Baratheon King he swore fealty to.  It's not like Ned knew Jon existed before he swore fealty to Robert.  What if he told Jon and Jon wanted to claim his birthright?  Would the North support Jon the Targaryen?  Obviously not.  Their loyalty is to the Starks, their liege lord.  What if Jon goes south and rallies Dorne and the Reach and declares war on the throne?  Ned's oath of fealty to Robert means that he's duty-bound to defend him against any attacks on his throne.  Which side is Ned going to ask his people to fight for?


I think keeping Jon's heritage a secret was the most honorable thing Ned could have done.  It kept him safe from the known threat, it kept his family safe from being declared traitors for harboring a known Targaryen and it kept his subjects safe from being called to fight yet another war.

This is one of the few times where Ned chose family rather than honour. He lied all his life to evryone about Jon, to keep him safe, to fulfill his promise. He could have never revealed his true identity or someone would have had him killed (for example Robert). After all he had Targaryen blood in him and could claim the iron throne, as it is righfully his.
And afterall, Ned never meant for Jon to take the throne and become a king. He only ever wanted to keep him safe and safe he was. Ned chose family over honour but this choice is undoubtedly the most honourable one he ever made.

Edited by FrozenFire3, 17 June 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[Teal'c]

I've always wondered whether they meant to have Benjen tell Jon the truth before he took the vows, but then Benjen went missing instead.

[The Snowman]

Thendel, on 17 June 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

I'm a proponent of the theory, but from what I've seen from the latest threads:

1. Ned was in love with Ashara and fathered Jon (of which we have no indications other than hearsay).

2. R+L=J is too "obvious" (which is odd for a theory that about 80-90% of readers never pick up on before reading these boards, and which has only be contructed by gathering small indication that together frame a larger picture).

3. Ned refers to Robb and Jon as "my sons" once in front of his household in Game.

4. Jon doesn't have the Targaeryen looks.

5. Jon looks exactly like Ned.

6. The blue rose in the Wall merely symbolizes a Stark, not Lyanna and her son in particular.

Needless to say, I remain convinced.

Just on Jon's looks
Catelyn does on a few occasions when having a hate on Jon (bitch ) remark that Jon look the most like Ned rather than her legitimate children (besides Arya who is just a plain badass).

Anyway I don't believe that the Starks and Targs ever got together so no one knows how the genetics would work. Would that Stark genes dominate the Targ ones? if so then Jon could very well be the son of a Stark/Targ union.
Jon is called 'son' by Ned as a collective term with Robb, if Ned is hiding his true parentage what else is he supposed to say other than "what have my sons done now" (correct me on the quote if you want) Also Maester Aemon likings Jon to Rheagar once in AGOT doesn't he? I could be wrong but I'm sure he does. We all know how George likes to foreshadow things.
Just putting this out there as well, a lot of people have come over to the R+L=J theory becasue they believe he is the song of ice and fire because of the Stark/Targ. But tbh it doesn't have to be, it could be talking about the struggle between the others*ice) and likely dragons (fire) but my point is it could be numerous things.

Just something for thought concerning the Starks and Targs. The Targaryans didn't have anything to do with the Starks (or so we know) from Aegon's Conquest and Robert's Rebellion. Is it possible that the Targs simply left the Starks alone, The North is very different from the South and I belueve it has been said that there is magic in Winterfell and the Starks and so to with the Targs. Like apparently according to Bloodraven out of every 1000 men and warg was born and out of every 1000 wargs a greenseer was born, Correct me I'm wrong on the quote. But anyway what is the likelihood that 6 children from the same family become wargs (Sansa probably would have if she had Lady for longer) Sounds a bit much if there wasn't something big going on.
Anyway that was a little off topic but i think it's kind of relevant as Ned described Brandon and Lyanna as having the 'wolfsblood'.
Possibly Lyanna had that going for her in Rhaegar's eyes as well

[Lady Octarina]

rmholt said:

Quote

The fact that she hatched the eggs seems to validate her for me, ie not crazy

Well, it only validates her for you because you believe it was her own magic that hatched the eggs. I never thought that way, and now that I read tze's theory I am sure that the eggs only hatched (and Daenerys only survived the flames) because of MMD's magic and incompetence. Therefore, she never had any prior connection to the eggs, and if she tells her in her POV chapters that she felt heat from them, that means she's either crazy or letting herself be influenced by her dreams ("dreams" here is used in the non-magical sense of the word).


the WarHammer said:

Quote

If you guys are talking about Jon Snow's mother she was a Danye sister to the Sword Of the Morning. She killed herself when Ned Stark had to Wed Cat

I would only like to add, to everyone else's replies at the last thread, that Ashara Dayne killed herself after the war was over, a while after Ned defeated her brother. Ned married Catelyn many months before (a year?), at the beginning of the war, so, whatever made her kill herself (if she killed herself), it was not that wedding.

mog, on 17 June 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Sorry to intrude once more but  what is 'honourable' about allowing a fifteen year old boy to go to the wall and swear his life away without telling him of his extraordinary parentage and heritage.
Keeping a child safe is one thing but to deny a youth his possible claim to a kingdom is another.
To me not excusable and not honourable and i refuse to believe Jon's continued  ignorance of his birthright is what either of his parents would have wanted if R +L.
And just how 'safe' was letting him go to the wall?
So far it has nearly killed him a dozen or more times. It was very unsafe at the best of times.
He would have been far safer at Winterfell or a dozen other places.
To keep him 'safe' is an excuse to justify the anything but honourable conduct by his uncle by those blinkered or those in denial.

I kind of agree with you. The thing is, honor only gets you so far. It's like what Jaime says about too many vows - there will always be a moment when to act honorably to someone you will have to be untrue to someone else, which was exactly the case here: Ned's loyalty to Robert made him allow Jon to deny his rights (rights he was unaware of, which is even worse). And as to those that believe Lyanna asked him to just protect Jon or that she never wanted him to be king, well, I doubt that. Too many guards at the damn ToJ for them not to have intended to have Jon as king if everyone else was killed. And who's to say Lyanna didn't share/wasn't convinced by Rhaegar's prophecies? Ned spend the last ten years or so of Lyanna's life at the Vale, so I think it's safe to say he didn't know her that well. And, anyway, the fact that Benjen didn't stay in Winterfell supporting his brother through all this, taking care of their nephew, it basically screams to us that Ned wasn't completely true to Lyanna's memory/wishes.

So, while Ned's choices might have been honorable in the sense that it protected his family, it was dishonorable to Lyanna's memory and Jon's rights. I really don't know why people insist on saying Ned was 100% honorable, there's no such thing. He had flaws, and the way he dealt with the R+L=J situation is both what makes me love him and what makes me despise him.

Edited by Lady Octarina, 17 June 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[kg1982]

Quote

I kind of agree with you. The thing is, honor only gets you so far. It's like what Jaime says about too many vows - there will always be a moment when to act honorably to someone you will have to be untrue to someone else, which was exactly the case here: Ned's loyalty to Robert made him allow Jon to deny his rights (rights he was unaware of, which is even worse). And as to those that believe Lyanna asked him to just protect Jon or that she never wanted him to be king, well, I doubt that. Too many guards at the damn ToJ for them not to have intended to have Jon as king if everyone else was killed. And who's to say Lyanna didn't share/wasn't convinced by Rhaegar's prophecies? Ned spend the last ten years or so of Lyanna's life at the Vale, so I think it's safe to say he didn't know her that well. And, anyway, the fact that Benjen didn't stay in Winterfell supporting his brother through all this, taking care of their nephew, it basically screams to us that Ned wasn't completely true to Lyanna's memory/wishes.

My theory has always been that Lyanna went with Rhaegar because she was a young girl with a crush and running off with the hot dragon prince was a lot more fun than marrying Robert Baratheon.  I don't think that it had anything to do with prophecy.  Rhaegar might have been a big believer in prophecies, but Lyanna didn't strike me as the sort of person who was.  I also think that Lyanna came to regret what had happened after Rickard, Brandon, and Rhaegar all died.  I don't think that she was much interested in playing the game or having her child become king; I'm sure that she just wanted her baby protected.  

As for why the Kingsguard were out there, I don't think that Lyanna's wishes about Jon's future would come into play even if she was strong enough to voice them.  Jon was the King and it was the Kingsguard's job to protect him.  Really neither of Jon nor Lyanna would have had any say in the matter and would have likely become pawns of the Targaryen loyalists if the Kingsguard had defeated Ned and Lyanna had survived.

I do agree with you that Benjen seemed to want to at least tell Jon about his past based on how opposed he was to Jon joining the Night's Watch.  However, I think that Benjen joined the Watch as personal penance rather than because he disagreed with Ned about Jon.   I also think that Ned was right about waiting to tell Jon.  Jon at the beginning of GOT would have reacted poorly to learning the truth; he probably would have done something rash and stupid.

[Lady Octarina]

kg1982, on 17 June 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

My theory has always been that Lyanna went with Rhaegar because she was a young girl with a crush and running off with the hot dragon prince was a lot more fun than marrying Robert Baratheon.  I don't think that it had anything to do with prophecy.  Rhaegar might have been a big believer in prophecies, but Lyanna didn't strike me as the sort of person who was.  I also think that Lyanna came to regret what had happened after Rickard, Brandon, and Rhaegar all died.  I don't think that she was much interested in playing the game or having her child become king; I'm sure that she just wanted her baby protected.

Oh, I'm not saying she went with him because of some prophecy. I think she went willingly, but for other reasons, maybe even love or adventure. But she spent months with only him and a couple of KG as company; I'm sure he would eventually tell her of all the prophecies he read about (isn't he among the Targs that had that kind of dreams as well?), and why couldn't she eventually agree with him? I don't know, the way she is described, I always imagined she and Benjen would be avid listeners of Old Nan's stories, and, growing up listening to them, it's not that hard to imagine what her reaction to Rhaegar's prophecies would be. So, yes, I think that she believed in those prophecies and whatever role her child would play in them, and probably thought he wold need a crown in his head for that.

Quote

As for why the Kingsguard were out there, I don't think that Lyanna's wishes about Jon's future would come into play even if she was strong enough to voice them.  Jon was the King and it was the Kingsguard's job to protect him.  Really neither of Jon nor Lyanna would have had any say in the matter and would have likely become pawns of the Targaryen loyalists if the Kingsguard had defeated Ned and Lyanna had survived.

I didn't mean why the KG were there, but why there were three, the same amount of people that went with Rhaegar to a battle. Just saying that the Tower was more vulnerable to attack therefore she needed that many men to protect her and the baby isn't enough for me. The ToJ is really isolated, and the place in Dorne where it's supposed to be located would make it even more difficult for an army to attack them.

Quote

I also think that Ned was right about waiting to tell Jon.  Jon at the beginning of GOT would have reacted poorly to learning the truth; he probably would have done something rash and stupid.

I agree that it was for the best that Ned didn't tell him the truth at that point, but I don't think it was as honorable as many people believe it was, seeing that he would only tell him the truth (if things had gone according to plan) maybe years later, after Jon had said his vows, therefore leaving him absolutely no choice about what he should do with the knowledge, for if he chose to claim the throne he would now be a deserter, meant to be killed, and most likely getting the support of less people than he would before, if any.

[LadyMary]

Thendel, on 17 June 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

I'm a proponent of the theory, but from what I've seen from the latest threads:

1. Ned was in love with Ashara and fathered Jon (of which we have no indications other than hearsay).

2. R+L=J is too "obvious" (which is odd for a theory that about 80-90% of readers never pick up on before reading these boards, and which has only be contructed by gathering small indication that together frame a larger picture).

3. Ned refers to Robb and Jon as "my sons" once in front of his household in Game.

4. Jon doesn't have the Targaeryen looks.

5. Jon looks exactly like Ned.

6. The blue rose in the Wall merely symbolizes a Stark, not Lyanna and her son in particular.

Needless to say, I remain convinced.

You forgot "Jon's hand was burnt fighting the wight so he's not fire proof and can't be a Targ" (although there are numerous Targaryens who were also not fireproof and Dany's being Unburnt was a miracle related to magic and according to GRRM, a singular event).

But yeah, I also remain convinced that R+L=J.

I'm not as certain about whether Jon is a trueborn or bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I'm certainly convinced that he is their son.

[Dr. Pepper]

Lady Octarina, on 17 June 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I agree that it was for the best that Ned didn't tell him the truth at that point, but I don't think it was as honorable as many people believe it was, seeing that he would only tell him the truth (if things had gone according to plan) maybe years later, after Jon had said his vows, therefore leaving him absolutely no choice about what he should do with the knowledge, for if he chose to claim the throne he would now be a deserter, meant to be killed, and most likely getting the support of less people than he would before, if any.

I think it was absolutely honorable when you consider how many people Ned is responsible for.  Why should Jon's claim be put before the needs and wants of all the people in the realm?  What if Jon's mother was actually some banker's daughter that Brandon drunkenly married at some point before the war and so Jon was actually heir to a large bank?

Let's say Brandon hid the banker's daughter away in a cottage because her father had an intense hatred for Starks and vowed to kill an child she conceived.  After the war, Ned finds out and stops in for a little visit only to find that there's a baby.  The woman begs Ned to take baby Jon away and raise him as his own and keep it secret or else her father will hunt the baby down and kill him. Is an heir to a bank worth less than a possible heir to a throne?  What if that banker had the funds to hire 10 sellsword companies to attack the north in order to get vengeance on the Starks?  Isn't it honorable more honorable for Ned to keep the secret and protect Jon, his biological children, his wife, and all the people in the North?