430 replies to this topic

[Lady Octarina]

Dr. Pepper, on 17 June 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I think it was absolutely honorable when you consider how many people Ned is responsible for.  Why should Jon's claim be put before the needs and wants of all the people in the realm?  What if Jon's mother was actually some banker's daughter that Brandon drunkenly married at some point before the war and so Jon was actually heir to a large bank?

Let's say Brandon hid the banker's daughter away in a cottage because her father had an intense hatred for Starks and vowed to kill an child she conceived.  After the war, Ned finds out and stops in for a little visit only to find that there's a baby.  The woman begs Ned to take baby Jon away and raise him as his own and keep it secret or else her father will hunt the baby down and kill him. Is an heir to a bank worth less than a possible heir to a throne?  What if that banker had the funds to hire 10 sellsword companies to attack the north in order to get vengeance on the Starks?  Isn't it honorable more honorable for Ned to keep the secret and protect Jon, his biological children, his wife, and all the people in the North?

I'm not saying it wasn't honorable or that it wasn't the best thing he could do, but absolutely honorable? Not at all. If Lyanna wanted him to support his claim and he didn't do that, that's not honorable to her memory, like I said. If we're talking honor and justice as abstract concepts, is it honorable to support a man who was an absolutely horrible and unfair king and his allies, a family known for their pragmatic cruelty, just because said man was your childhood bff? Absolutely not.

Again, I'm not arguing against his decision, just against people's habit of painting each and every choice Eddard has ever made in the most honorable light possible. He's not perfect, that's all I'm saying.

[kg1982]

Quote

I didn't mean why the KG were there, but why there were three, the same amount of people that went with Rhaegar to a battle. Just saying that the Tower was more vulnerable to attack therefore she needed that many men to protect her and the baby isn't enough for me. The ToJ is really isolated, and the place in Dorne where it's supposed to be located would make it even more difficult for an army to attack them.

Because Rhaegar ordered the 3 Kingsguard to protect Lyanna and his child?  While it was isolated, there could be bandits or other dangers that might threaten Lyanna and her child.  I'm sure that Lyanna was grateful for the protection, but that doesn't mean that she wanted her son to become king.  After Rhaegar's death, she was probably only focused on her baby's survival.  The Game of Thrones took her father, brother, and lover/ husband in that order; she might have wanted Jon kept away from that.  

As for the Kingsguard, they wouldn't have taken Lyanna's wishes into account even if she had been healthy enough to say them.  Their job was to protect the King; Lyanna was only the King's mother.  Lyanna probably wouldn't have a say in whether her son became king; in fact, Jon wouldn't have a say until he came of age.  

Quote

I agree that it was for the best that Ned didn't tell him the truth at that point, but I don't think it was as honorable as many people believe it was, seeing that he would only tell him the truth (if things had gone according to plan) maybe years later, after Jon had said his vows, therefore leaving him absolutely no choice about what he should do with the knowledge, for if he chose to claim the throne he would now be a deserter, meant to be killed, and most likely getting the support of less people than he would before, if any.

He actually really didn't have a choice in the scenario that you've laid out..  Yes, Jon could decide to claim the throne after Ned tells him about his heritage.  However, Ned probably wouldn't support Jon with the North's banners and I don't see Jon getting support from many corners while Robert is still alive.  He'd end up being killed and likely get his foster family killed as well.

Moreover, if Ned had supported Jon's claim to the throne when he was still a baby, then he still wouldn't have a choice in the matter.  He'd end up as king whether he really wanted to or not.  He wouldn't even be cognizant that he was king until he was older and even then he'd basically be a figurehead while Jon Arryn and Ned Stark held the real power.  I don't think that either Ned or Jon Arryn would have let Jon Targaryen get away with anything, so it would have been a highly structured regency.  Jon could obviously decide to abdicate when he came of age and fully received power, but that is a false choice as well.  There'd likely be a power vacuum and the lives of the former king and his supporters would be forfeit.  

Jon really didn't have any choice in the matter..  What happened to him was going to be decided by other people's actions.  What is ironic is that the twists and turns in the book has set it up to where Jon actually will have a choice about who he ultimately is.  It might end up being a choice that isn't personally satisfying for him, such as ending up as king, in order to serve the greater good, but it will ultimately be his choice.

Edited by kg1982, 17 June 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[David Selig]

Lady Octarina, on 17 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm not saying it wasn't honorable or that it wasn't the best thing he could do, but absolutely honorable? Not at all. If Lyanna wanted him to support his claim and he didn't do that, that's not honorable to her memory, like I said.

Why would Lyanna want that? The rebels have won, the Targ supporters were beaten. The odds of Jon ever winning the Iron Throne were extremely low. It was far more likely that any attempt to put Jon on the throne would end in his death.

[Lonin]

I started reading the books after the third episode of season 1, just 'discovered' the various westeros websites a few months ago... very interesting reading,  still dont quite see the fasination with R + L = J,  bastard sons/daughters seem to play a significant role in all the books... not sure why Jon needs special parents (also I tend not to like plot twists based upon the character being a hidden special person).

[Alia of the knife]

I just want answers.

[rmholt]

Dr. Pepper, on 17 June 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

As far as I know, the only arguments that counter this theory is that other characters have called other women Jon Snow's mother.  Cat thought it was Ashara, Robert thought it was Wylla, Edric Dayne says it was Wylla, and Godric Borrell says it was the daughter of a fisherman.

Arguments readers give to counter the theory are Jon got burnt and Targs are fireproof (which is false), Jon doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes (which doesn't mean he isn't half Targ as there are Targs who didn't have the Targ look) or that they hate the theory just because.

I Liked the theory as soon as I heard it.  The fact that Ned may have had a fling with Ashara is a fact which is used to make it sound reasonable that Ned had fathered a living son.  Maybe the Stark seed (or egg) is also strong.

Although Jon isnt my favorite character by far.

[rmholt]

Alia of the knife, on 17 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

I just want answers.

Ha ha you are getting answers!  Perhaps the answers you want are forthcoming in a few years

[rmholt]

Lady Octarina, on 17 June 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm not saying it wasn't honorable or that it wasn't the best thing he could do, but absolutely honorable? Not at all. If Lyanna wanted him to support his claim and he didn't do that, that's not honorable to her memory, like I said. If we're talking honor and justice as abstract concepts, is it honorable to support a man who was an absolutely horrible and unfair king and his allies, a family known for their pragmatic cruelty, just because said man was your childhood bff? Absolutely not.

Again, I'm not arguing against his decision, just against people's habit of painting each and every choice Eddard has ever made in the most honorable light possible. He's not perfect, that's all I'm saying.

Jon absolutely had to stay hidden - Ned knew what would happen if Robert found out there was a Targaryen on the loose - and in Ned's house!  He chose the most honorable course he could in a situation with no perfect choices.  MHO.  My guess is that the promise to Lyanna was to keep the boy alive by this subterfuge.

[Teal'c]

Lonin, on 17 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I started reading the books after the third episode of season 1, just 'discovered' the various westeros websites a few months ago... very interesting reading,  still dont quite see the fasination with R + L = J,  bastard sons/daughters seem to play a significant role in all the books... not sure why Jon needs special parents (also I tend not to like plot twists based upon the character being a hidden special person).

Jon needs special parents because he is the epic hero.

http://www.uky.edu/~...4/myth/hero.pdf

[rmholt]

Snowman93, on 17 June 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Well in my eyes Jon's mother has to be 'someone' of importance seemingly because Jon is such an integral part of this story and it simply hasn't been cleared up and with all the secrecy. If it was just some girl that Ned Stark met while at war then why wouldn't he tell Jon that. It wouldn't be hard to have a quiet minute alone and talk to him rather than never say anything and let Jon go to the Wall while he goes to the complete other side of the Kingdom. Also, if Ned hadn't died in KL then it would've been at least a couple of years before Ned and Jon could've seen each other.

Anyway I am a firm believer in the R+L=J theory mainly because of the intrigue of Ned's thoughts concerning Lyanna in the Tower of Joy and those recollections by Barristan about the Harrenhal Tourney and the queen of love and beauty scene. However my main reasoning behind believing this theory is that Jon 'knows nothing' about his mother and that Ned is pretty sensitive about the subject with Catelyn and Robert, also big question of why was there 3 members of the KingsGuard including its Lord Commander 'guarding' a kidnap victim throughout the war while Rheagar took 3 with him to the battle of the trident and only the youngest of the KG Jaime Lannister was left alone to defend the the King, Queen, 2 princesses and a baby prince. What could have been so important about Lyanna Stark that 3 KG were stationed in the TOJ to 'protect/guard' her?

Going along with that Lyana was found on a bed of blood. Sounds like childbirth to me, Jon is just younger than Robb is he not(someone help me out on this one) but the are both classified as almost 15 at the beginning of AGOT. So Ned got Catelyn pregnant then went to war and almost instantly broke his marriage vows and sired a bastard. Seems to me that the likelihood of Jon being conceived by Ned practically straight after marrying Catelyn and siring Robb just doesn't fit very well, especially with Ned's character.

Just something on the possibility of Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother. Going back on how Jon and Robb are very close in age, how would Ned get Catelyn pregnant then get Ashara Dayne pregnant within 2-3 weeks. Unless Jon was a few weeks late and Robb was a fair bit early I don't see how Ned or Brandon Stark could've sired Jon with Ashara Dayne.

So just going on those points, personally for the story and the build up to mean anything Jon is the song of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark.
Also believe that Lyanna was not kidnapped and went willingly with Rheagar whom according to Cersei made Jaime look like a stableboy and in AGOT Jaime is described as being the best looking man in the 7 Kingdoms and Rheagar did name Lyanna the queen of love and beauty in front of his wife and mother of his children and not to mention the rest of the nobility of Westeros. Quite a bit of a statement of affection .  Well just my 2 cents worth.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar it has to be a deep dark secret.  Ned wouldnt want to talk about it at all, and would discourage Cat or anyone else from asking questions both to stop any speculation and to keep from having to lie.

The bed of blood meme is used in other cases to describe childbirth and a lot of women die that way in the book, so I like it here.

Although Ned might be upset at Robert chasing down Dany and her baby, he might have been even more emphatic about it having a personal stake in not killing Targs.

M

[Lady Hummingbird]

David Selig, on 17 June 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Why would Lyanna want that? The rebels have won, the Targ supporters were beaten. The odds of Jon ever winning the Iron Throne were extremely low. It was far more likely that any attempt to put Jon on the throne would end in his death.

Agreed, and not only his death. As Robb said once, Ned regarded himself as a father for all the men, women and children under his protection/vows of loyalty, he putted Lyanna's first by hidding Jon as his own, while deeply hurting the pride of his young bride, and endangaring the whole North to Robert's anger. The Baratheon army would have gone against Winterfell (because I'm sure Ned would have never given up Jon without a fight), the North would risen up to protect the Stark household and probably die in the process.

Also Jon is still a bastard, Rhaegar died before he was born so none could have legitimazed his claim to the throne as his son and heir.

[Dragonfish]

Lady Hummingbird, on 17 June 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Also Jon is still a bastard, Rhaegar died before he was born so none could have legitimazed his claim to the throne as his son and heir.

A common theory is that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, which would make Jon trueborn.

[Lady Hummingbird]

Dragonfish, on 17 June 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

A common theory is that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, which would make Jon trueborn.

But Elia was still alive, Rhaegar was a married man, how could they have gotten married? Also, if it's true, noone knew they were actually married then it will be the same as Jon being a bastard, both Lyanna and Rhaegar died, and only two people came out alive from the TOJ.

[Dragonfish]

Lady Hummingbird, on 17 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

But Elia was still alive, Rhaegar was a married man, how could they have gotten married?

Through good old-fashioned polygamy, which Targaryens once practiced.

Quote

Also, if it's true, noone knew they were actually married then it will be the same as Jon being a bastard, both Lyanna and Rhaegar died, and only two people came out alive from the TOJ.

Ned and Howland would probably know, and perhaps Wylla and Ashara as well.

[FrozenFire3]

What Ned did, in my humble opinion, was very honourable. As I said in a previous post, this is the only time Ned chose family over honour. Lying for your whole life to your wife, children, friends isn't particularly honourable but it proved to be one of the most honourable choices/things he ever made/did. He protected this child in memory of his sister and to fulfil a promise made to her.
Now, as for his "stubborness" in not wanting to tell Jon who his mother/parents were... that is something else entirely. I believe it was wrong of him not to tell him of his true lineage before he went to the wall. This way, he deprived Jon of a choice, a true choice. When he joins the night's watch, from that day on, Jon will be forever obliged to fulfil his oath. He is forever bound by it."Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."
Of course Jon chose to go to the wall, but would he have chosen differently, had he known the truth?

[Dana]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this or not, but Ashara Dayne had a stillborn daughter, not a son. So its highly unlikely that Jon is hers. I hope GRRM doesn't pull a fast one on us and make Jon's mother Wylla or somebody, just to mess with our heads.

[Lady Octarina]

Lonin, on 17 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I started reading the books after the third episode of season 1, just 'discovered' the various westeros websites a few months ago... very interesting reading,  still dont quite see the fasination with R + L = J,  bastard sons/daughters seem to play a significant role in all the books... not sure why Jon needs special parents (also I tend not to like plot twists based upon the character being a hidden special person).

The fascination is the one all tragic stories will receive at some point. But this theory does not depend on his heritage making him special or something; there are many who accept R+L=J and believe Jon will ultimately refuse his "Targaryen-ness", whereas others think he might never even find out about it, or only find out after he's already a hero in the war to come or sitting in the throne for his victories anyway. Though, of course, the theory that he is Azor Ahai, The Prince that was Promised, The Song of Ice and fire, etc, depend on R+L...

Alia of the knife, on 17 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

I just want answers.

I agree, though sometimes I feel getting the answers won't be half as fun as formulating questions

[Apple Martini]

Lady Hummingbird, on 17 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

But Elia was still alive, Rhaegar was a married man, how could they have gotten married? Also, if it's true, noone knew they were actually married then it will be the same as Jon being a bastard, both Lyanna and Rhaegar died, and only two people came out alive from the TOJ.

There's polygamy. Also, if it's meant to be important, GRRM will have some way figured out to prove it. Wylla or Howland might know, or Bloodraven ("King! King!"), or the septon who performed the marriage (who do we know who's a septon and also on the Riverlands circuit around Harrenhal, where a lot of people think Lyanna was staying when she was "abducted"?).

Dana, on 17 June 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

I don't know if anyone mentioned this or not, but Ashara Dayne had a stillborn daughter, not a son. So its highly unlikely that Jon is hers. I hope GRRM doesn't pull a fast one on us and make Jon's mother Wylla or somebody, just to mess with our heads.

Barristan thinks she had a stillborn daughter. What she actually had and if it survived, that's another story. Never mistake second-hand information for fact.

Edited by Apple Martini, 17 June 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[King Doug]

FrozenFire3, on 17 June 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."
Of course Jon chose to go to the wall, but would he have chosen differently, had he known the truth?

I don't think he would have taken the vow. Maybe not to pursue the throne, just to get answers.

Just as Teal'c mentioned before, I think it was Benjen who was supposed to tell Jon the truth.

[Heathered]

mog, on 17 June 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Sorry to intrude once more but  what is 'honourable' about allowing a fifteen year old boy to go to the wall and swear his life away without telling him of his extraordinary parentage and heritage.
Keeping a child safe is one thing but to deny a youth his possible claim to a kingdom is another.
To me not excusable and not honourable and i refuse to believe Jon's continued  ignorance of his birthright is what either of his parents would have wanted if R +L.
And just how 'safe' was letting him go to the wall?
So far it has nearly killed him a dozen or more times. It was very unsafe at the best of times.
He would have been far safer at Winterfell or a dozen other places.
To keep him 'safe' is an excuse to justify the anything but honourable conduct by his uncle by those blinkered or those in denial.

That has always bothered me, too. Why would Ned allow Jon to take the black? It is true that Jon is the one who wanted to join the Night's Watch, but Ned not only allowed it, but thought it for the best. However, Jon's decision is not really his decision if he does not know the truth--the whole truth. If he is the son of R+L, he had the right to know the truth and make a decision based on that and not omissions and rumors.

I agree that Ned was not honorable in allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch without telling him his parental history (whatever it may be). Ironically, Ned found it honorable to search for the truth of Robert's children, legitimate and illegitimate.

Edited by Heathered, 17 June 2012 - 06:45 PM.