430 replies to this topic

[Bushido]

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your
king with a golden sword, and I wondered
where you were.”

^^ Ned told them.

Edited by Bushido, 21 June 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

PromisedPrince, on 21 June 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

if we find out r+l=j is true and that jon is rheagars bastard , would he still be a bastard if robb made him legit before he died?

Some of us believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, so Jon may not be a bastard.

[PromisedPrince]

Lady Tippy Wolfsbane, on 21 June 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Some of us believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, so Jon may not be a bastard.

i know but could robb as a king make him legit if he did happen to be a bastard

[Dragonfish]

PromisedPrince, on 21 June 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

i know but could robb as a king make him legit if he did happen to be a bastard

Yes, but the decree would only be accepted by those who see Robb as their rightful king. Everyone else would simply see it as a useless peace of paper that does not have the force of law.

Edited by Dragonfish, 21 June 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Bushido]

Robb can not make anyone a Targaryen.

[corbon]

Joan of Arc, on 20 June 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

To quote the conversation:

"You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
"Wylla, yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like..."
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

Here, Wylla comes up for the first time between the friends who parted each other after the sacking of KL This memory of Robert is from 'when they where close like brothers'. Robert did not see her, but he is interested because she made Ned forget her honor. True in the books we have several Wylla's but none of those Wylla's could be around when Robert and Ned where still close.

So that leaves Wylla the Wetnurse from the house of Dayne as a strong candidate for the "Wylla" that Ned was refering to. Robert might not have seen Wylla, but that does not mean that he had not heared her name.

So Ned just did'nt spit out any girls name, but a plausible one. The name of Jons wet nurse, which would fit good if anyone even wanted to investigate into Jons mother.

There is nothing to suggest Wylla must be an especially 'plausible' name.

Its clear from the conversation that Robert never met Wylla. Therefore it is not likely that she came from a time when the two were close. Both in terms of Jon's necessary conception time and in terms of this conversation it is clear that "Wylla" is someone whom Robert never met and whom Robert believes Ned had sex with after they had gone on their separate ways in the early stages of the war, yet was no longer with Ned (sent south pregnant because a war camp is no place for a pregnant woman) when the two rejoined their forces mid-way through the war. Then after the war Robert believes Ned went south to pick up his bastard Jon, before returning to Winterfell.

Wylla the wetnurse is pretty obviously whom Robert is referring to as that is the obvious cover and 'surrepticious support' a nobleman might give to a peasant woman he has 'wronged'. Good for the babe, good for the father, and the mother is not being discarded like a used rag.

[Sapphire]

PromisedPrince, on 21 June 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

maybe they were given orders not to surrender lyanna at all costs and were willing to lay down their lives even though their prince was dead and their heir was in danger, or maybe they didnt hear the news untill ned stark got there, wasnt barristan at the trident? meaning he followed him from the tower of joy? he must know if r+l=j is true then right?

If Viserys was king their priority was at his side. At least one should have traveled to Dragonstone yet none did.

I don't think Barristan suspects Rhaegar fathered a child on Lyanna. Judging by his pov in ADWD, after all these years Barristan is still hurt that Rhaegar didn't afford him the same trust that other KGs enjoyed.

[FrozenFire3]

Sapphire, on 20 June 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

Rhaegar was probably surrounded by beautiful women at court and as far as we know never stepped out on Elia. I like to think he was struck by Lyanna's courage and strong character. Her looks were probably just the cherry on top.

Oh yes, I definitely agree with you! That's what I wrote in a previous post... she must have been a "fearsome thing to behold"

Edited by FrozenFire3, 21 June 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[The Snowman]

peterbound, on 21 June 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

Holy shit!  We're on issue 27 of this?

And how the fuck can someone that joined in '11 have 7000 fucking posts?

By being on this forum A LOT!!! and by simply stating it is known to everything perhaps haha

Rhaegar and Lyanna, what a problem these two characters have caused for those still alive in this series

[Joan of Arc]

corbon, on 21 June 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

There is nothing to suggest Wylla must be an especially 'plausible' name.

Thats what I thought the first time reading it.

corbon, on 21 June 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Its clear from the conversation that Robert never met Wylla. Therefore it is not likely that she came from a time when the two were close. Both in terms of Jon's necessary conception time and in terms of this conversation it is clear that "Wylla" is someone whom Robert never met and whom Robert believes Ned had sex with after they had gone on their separate ways in the early stages of the war, yet was no longer with Ned (sent south pregnant because a war camp is no place for a pregnant woman) when the two rejoined their forces mid-way through the war. Then after the war Robert believes Ned went south to pick up his bastard Jon, before returning to Winterfell.

True.

But here is my thoughts about the "Wylla" anwser about that.

Ned does not seem the man to be messing around with a woman if he is in fact: fleeing to Winterfell to gather his banners, march off to the Riverlands to be maried to Cat for support, march to the Trident to meet up with the royal forces and then speed march to KL to save the Iron Throne for his friend Robert. And this is only the short list.

Ned would have been occupied with doing a war. Yes he could have partied around after a victory. But we are talking here about honarable Ned "quiet wolf" Stark. Married to a family with the words "Family, Duty, Honor" Ned would certainly not dishonor Cat because he would loose his support of the Tullies. We all know that it took two marriages to involve the Tully's into the rebellion.

With those arguments I think that is it not likely that 'there was this girl' was from when they where rebels. If talk about it reached Robert, it would have reached to the ears of what ever Tully was around.

corbon, on 21 June 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Wylla the wetnurse is pretty obviously whom Robert is referring to as that is the obvious cover and 'surrepticious support' a nobleman might give to a peasant woman he has 'wronged'. Good for the babe, good for the father, and the mother is not being discarded like a used rag.

Good point. At the surface it seems to fit. Wylla became a wetnurse for birthing Jon leaving her a good life, in the care of the House Dayne. Only Wylla is also "Ned" Dayne's wet nurse. And he tells Arya that she was in service for 'years and years'.

From describtion of Ned Dayne, he and Jon Snow are close in age(?). My conclusion to this is that Wylla already was at least a servant for the House of Dayne before she was Jons wet nurse.

The war was in the West, Riverlands and KL. There is no shred of evidence that the South got involved with the rebelion or that Ned would have todo something in the South that Robert should know of.

If Ned was hidding the truth from Robert about Jon, why would he come up with the name of Jons real wet nurse to Robert?

[Maxpey]

Snowman93, on 21 June 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

By being on this forum A LOT!!! and by simply stating it is known to everything perhaps haha

Rhaegar and Lyanna, what a problem these two characters have caused for those still alive in this series

Not just for characters in the series, but for all of us fans as well!
To think 2 characters we know so little about could have so much of an impact.

[Joan of Arc]

Sapphire, on 21 June 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

If Viserys was king their priority was at his side. At least one should have traveled to Dragonstone yet none did.

I don't think Barristan suspects Rhaegar fathered a child on Lyanna. Judging by his pov in ADWD, after all these years Barristan is still hurt that Rhaegar didn't afford him the same trust that other KGs enjoyed.

I think there was a lot more going on 'behind' the scene's after Rhaegar gets killed. Rhaegar was pretty sure he would win the battle. In the end the obvious heir fled with one party, Aegon dead/switched and one possible 'natural' heir.

But the more logic explaination would have been that all heirs at that time where either dead or on the run. In other words defeated. So the next thing that happens, is installing a new king and give every ally his due and take action to make sure there is no one to with a rightfull claim to the Throne than Robert.

With the remaining heirs scatered into different fractions their first priority was getting safe and start making plans to overthrow the ursurper.

[casey31652]

Joan of Arc, on 21 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

If Ned was hidding the truth from Robert about Jon, why would he come up with the name of Jons real wet nurse to Robert?

The best lies are based on a plausible half-truth.

[Ser Fatbottoms]

I really do love this thread but sometimes it can be so trying. New people always asking the same questions (which I understand because I had them too) but without looking at older threads. Brand new AWESOME insights but only on like 1 out of every 200 posts (some of you guys are brilliant)! Just hoping for some new information or a change of direction soon!

Edited by Ser Fatbottoms, 21 June 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[The Snowman]

Ser Fatbottoms, on 21 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

I really do love this thread but sometimes it can be so trying. New people always asking the same questions (which I understand because I had them too) but without looking at older threads. Brand new AWESOME insights but only on like 1 out of every 200 posts (some of you guys are brilliant)! Just hoping for some new information or a chnage of direction soon!

What else can we do?
Its about R+L=Jon Snow
There is not a whole lot of evidence besides stuff in AGOT & ACOK concerning this theory, Probably because GRRM only intended this to become a trilogy so all the clues were been given at a good and easy rate but then everything got too complicated for Geroge so he expanded the series and then expanded it again. I suppose there was clues and foreshadowing in ASOS amongst all the chaos but apart from that its hard to come up with new material when there isn't anything left to theorise from until Winds of Winter is released.

[Toccs]

Snowman93, on 21 June 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

There is not a whole lot of evidence besides stuff in AGOT & ACOK concerning this theory,

Really?  aSoS is where we get the Knight of the Laughing Tree story which is one of the biggest pieces of evidence.
If you take Feast and Dance as one book then pretty much every major character has at least one thought or hears one story that paints Rhaegar in a more positive light then the kidnapping rapist of the official story.  It is also where we get Melisandre seeing "snow" in the flames when she asks for AA and Mormont's Raven saying "king jon snow"  The entire book is a massive deconstruction of the offical Rhaegar character while at the same time hinting at Jon's importance.

[The Snowman]

Toccs, on 21 June 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Really?  aSoS is where we get the Knight of the Laughing Tree story which is one of the biggest pieces of evidence.
If you take Feast and Dance as one book then pretty much every major character has at least one thought or hears one story that paints Rhaegar in a more positive light then the kidnapping rapist of the official story.  It is also where we get Melisandre seeing "snow" in the flames when she asks for AA and Mormont's Raven saying "king jon snow"  The entire book is a massive deconstruction of the offical Rhaegar character while at the same time hinting at Jon's importance.

Sorry forgot about the laughing tree knight story my bad
Now I'm not sure if its just me but when Mel and Jon are having that chat about looking for Stannis and all Mell could see was snow. I know George likes his foreshadowing of AAR but Stannis was right smack bang in the middle of shit snow storm and thats what I get out of that conversation. If Jon is R+L then he technically wouldn't be a snow in any case. Hey we have stuff to talk about now

peterbound, on 21 June 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Then stop theorizing (it does you no good), and come get abused in Gen Chat.

But theorising is too addictive. I was merely pointing out that after 27 versions of the same thread the likelihood that new evidence for and against the theory was unlikely to come out until TWOW.

[King Doug]

PromisedPrince, on 21 June 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

maybe they were given orders not to surrender lyanna at all costs and were willing to lay down their lives even though their prince was dead and their heir was in danger, or maybe they didnt hear the news untill ned stark got there, wasnt barristan at the trident? meaning he followed him from the tower of joy? he must know if r+l=j is true then right?

No, Barristan had never been to the ToJ. He was at King's Landing the whole time with Aerys. He met Rhaegar and Lewin Martell at the Trident because Barristan and Jonothor Darry were tasked with rallying the scattered troops from the Battle of the Bells at the Stoney Sept. Rhaegar led a new host, Martell led a Dornish host, Selmy/Darry led the remnants of the scattered host. All converged and met at the Trident (or some place right before so they could organize).

But Barristan was never at the ToJ. Rhaegar used the three KG members that he trusted most; Dayne, Whent, and Hightower.

PromisedPrince, on 21 June 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

if we find out r+l=j is true and that jon is rheagars bastard , would he still be a bastard if robb made him legit before he died?

Pretty common belief that Jon would not have been a bastard, and Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.


ETA: should have kept reading, people answered both of these

Edited by King Doug, 21 June 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[RoamingRonin]

Everyone here agrees on R+L=J but for different reasons. I think that's why new posters jump into the discussion and get confused and then schooled.

[King Doug]

Ser Fatbottoms, on 21 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

I really do love this thread but sometimes it can be so trying. New people always asking the same questions (which I understand because I had them too) but without looking at older threads. Brand new AWESOME insights but only on like 1 out of every 200 posts (some of you guys are brilliant)! Just hoping for some new information or a change of direction soon!

Yea, I've been reading this thread since version 22 or 23. It is very cyclical. But every now and then there is some new awesome insight.