430 replies to this topic

[rmholt]

peterbound, on 21 June 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

And how the fuck can someone that joined in '11 have 7000 fucking posts?

I'm sure it is not related to the office of "biggest d-bag in Westeros"

[rmholt]

nothatso, on 21 June 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

That's from the Melisandre chapter. Either it was a typo, or she was referring to a name.

In the NW they also call Jon Brother of Kings, though how the NW would know this I dont know.

[Sasha Steelsong]

rmholt, on 21 June 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

In the NW they also call Jon Brother of Kings, though how the NW would know this I dont know.

Because they believe his brother to be Robb Stark, King in the North (and all of them are desended from the Kings in the North).  Ergo..brother to kings.

[Bushido]

It is debatable how much Daynes knew - what if only Arthur's brother knew? At that moment I think they thought it best - and indeed it was. Remember that they owe loyalty to Martells. They even went beyond their power.

[King Doug]

Bushido, on 21 June 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

It is debatable how much Daynes knew - what if only Arthur's brother knew? At that moment I think they thought it best - and indeed it was. Remember that they owe loyalty to Martells. They even went beyond their power.

Maybe this is why Darkstar is the "most dangerous man in Dorne." But that gets into some serious crackpotting, and a little off topic

[Bushido]

That would include Martells in the scheme of events. Do we have any clue as to this? No.

[King Doug]

Bushido, on 21 June 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

That would include Martells in the scheme of events. Do we have any clue as to this? No.

Nope, no evidence that I know of. Still one of my personal crackpots though

[Bushido]

I am also intrigued by that sentence!

[Joan of Arc]

atpthornton, on 21 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

First off we don't know that he picks up Wylla at Starfall nor do I remember us getting confirmation that Wylla ever went North.  We know Wylla was with Ned at some point in the the whole TOJ/Starfall/Winterfell journey and that there was a wetnurse at Winterfell for Jon but I'm honestly not sure that they were ever confirmed to be the same person.  Nor do we know for certain where Ned picked up Wylla since it is possible she was with Lyanna at the TOJ.  With  Lyanna dead there would have to be a wetnurse for the journey from the TOJ to Starfall (unless it takes only a couple of hours - i.e. the distance was so small that it conceivably could have been done between feedings which seems unlikely given the speed of travel).

That was my first asumption also. I discarded Wylla because she is such a small player. For a short time period she was Jons wet nurse.

atpthornton, on 21 June 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

As for why the Danyes would let Jon go with Ned...well he is the boy's uncle and most direct relative and I think by the point that they came into things at Starfall - both with Robert more securely on the throne and not being KG - keeping Jon from Ned was less urgent since they were confident that he wouldn't harm the child.  Not to mention it is quite possible that Lyanna made Ned promise to take care of Jon and Ned relayed her request to the Daynes by saying that he wanted Jon.  This is of course assuming the Danyes had the option of allowing Ned to do anything.  Being on the wrong side of the rebellion they may not have been in a position to demand anything of Ned even if things were otherwise cordial between them.

A sisters wish is a good argument and Ned beeing Jons honorable uncle is another one.

With Ned in Starfall, they could have taken him and lock him up. Send word to the Martells that they have someone who knows about the killings and rape of Ellia and her childeren. No one knew that Ned was at the ToJ or at Starfall. If the Daynes where doing 'damage controll' this action would put them in good books with the Martells again.

One reason I can think off that the Daynes would not be cooperative with Ned.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Joan of Arc, on 21 June 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

A sisters wish is a good argument and Ned beeing Jons honorable uncle is another one.

With Ned in Starfall, they could have taken him and lock him up. Send word to the Martells that they have someone who knows about the killings and rape of Ellia and her childeren. No one knew that Ned was at the ToJ or at Starfall. If the Daynes where doing 'damage controll' this action would put them in good books with the Martells again.

One reason I can think off that the Daynes would not be cooperative with Ned.

But Arryn had gone to Dorne to smooth things over with the Martels and Dorne was welcomed into the kingdom, so it would not be in Dorne's interest to stir the pot at that point (particularly given Doran's cautious nature).  Plus if the point is to keep Jon secret, then kidnapping Ned would have been problematic. Just because no one knew where Ned was at the moment, doesn't mean that the second in command of the rebellion would not have been missed rather quickly, and it would have brought questions as to why he was taken to begin with.  Not to mention Robert's likely anger over the whole thing.

[Joan of Arc]

atpthornton, on 21 June 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

But Arryn had gone to Dorne to smooth things over with the Martels and Dorne was welcomed into the kingdom, so it would not be in Dorne's interest to stir the pot at that point (particularly given Doran's cautious nature).  Plus if the point is to keep Jon secret, then kidnapping Ned would have been problematic. Just because no one knew where Ned was at the moment, doesn't mean that the second in command of the rebellion would not have been missed rather quickly, and it would have brought questions as to why he was taken to begin with.  Not to mention Robert's likely anger over the whole thing.

I had overlooked that one. So there goes my frist crackpot theory on the boards.

Somehow it all comes down to the timeline of all the events in the story. The only thing not exactly given in the books. Which is great for making crackpot theories.

[GreenSeeress]

Joan of Arc, on 21 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

My point is: Robert knows where babies come from, but thats it. If Robert would have known it takes nine months to produce a baby, he would at least have suspected something's wrong with his own offspring.

There was a 1995 movie called Angels and Insects, in which the protagonist is married to a woman who is having sex with her brother.  Pretty much the only time she consents to have sex with her husband is right after she figures out she's pregnant with her brother's kids.  The kids are white blond like the brother and sister, rather than brunet like the father.  She gives birth to three or four kids before he finally figures it out, after getting a few hints from the household staff.

It takes place in Victorian England, rather than Westeros, but otherwise, pretty similar situation.

[MedievalGenius]

Quick question: do we know if there is anyway to make the first post of every topic a sticky with common r + l = J 'facts'? Although I try to keep up with posts, I sometimes miss things and I would post more but I really don't want to get corrected each time I make an innocent mistake if I mix up something from the books (which I have only read once, do not own and read a while ago) or state a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum. I suggest this because I have had similar experiences on other threads and its really ruining my enthusiasm for discussing the show if all I am going to get is 'schooled'. I am sorry if this is off topic and I do not mean to offend but I really want to discuss the show and the books and heard nothing but great things about this site, but have yet to have a great experience.

Edited by MedievalGenius, 21 June 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[King Doug]

MedievalGenius, on 21 June 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Quick question: do we know if there is anyway to make the first post of every topic a sticky with common r + l = J 'facts'? Although I try to keep up with posts, I sometimes miss things and I would post more but I really don't want to get corrected each time I make an innocent mistake if I mix up something from the books (which I have only read once, do not own and read a while ago) or state a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum. I suggest this because I have had similar experiences on other threads and its really ruining my enthusiasm for discussing the show if all I am going to get is 'schooled'. I am sorry if this is off topic and I do not mean to offend but I really want to discuss the show and the books and heard nothing but great things about this site, but have yet to have a great experience.

First of all, welcome to the forums. Sorry about the bad experiences. You have probably noticed there are separate forums for show and book discussion.

I don't know about the sticky thing. But I have been on the site for a few months and made my fair share of dumb comments. People have always been patient with me. In the vast majority of the cases I have seen, if you ask a question you will get an answer without it being rude or condescending. In places like this thread where there are 27 versions of it, I don't blame people for jumping in an asking their questions even if they are repeated every 7-8 pages. Because I know I don't want to read 27 threads of it to catch up. As long as you don't get nasty they are greeted with patience and understanding.

Above all, keep an open mind to other theories and don't ignore evidence. That's a good way to frustrate people. Good luck.

ETA: even if you do make a mistake in your posts, and someone corrects you, don't take it personally. EVERYONE has made a mistake and gotten corrected.

Edited by King Doug, 21 June 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[richard_ba]

Did anyone ever pay attention to the fact that, Daenerys means summer and Jon means winter?

I mean, Daenerys is right now in one of the hottest place in the world, while Jon in the opposite

Did anyone notice that both had pregnancy and abortion experience? Yggrite was probably pregnant and Daenerys we all know what happened

Both of them are tempted (as per ADWD) a prospective to go home, Daenerys with Xaros offer and Jon with Stannis proposal

Their narrative and perspective are somewhat correlate, they both struggle to establish power

GRRM has been giving us hints of this theory since book one

[corbon]

Joan of Arc, on 21 June 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

At a later point. Joffrey is the first bastard she's had at that time she would have been very carefull with Jaime, remember she had one true heir before that. Cercei is very carefull with that. Untill she found out that he was to drunk to remember anything let alone that he is doing the 'nine month' math. Joffery was born after their visit to Greenwatch (?).  Robert there was entertaining another woman, while Joffrey get concieved. Sure he did sleep with her, but after a very short while he turned to a warmer bed. I think Robert does'nt do his maths, just because he never did.

But you are just inventing that Robert doesn't do his maths, ever. There is nothing to say that Cersei and he didn't have sex (whether or not she let him finish inside her) 9 months before each of her children were born. Or 8 months. Or 10 months. We know, I think, that Cersei and Robert don't have sex often any more (but still do (such as it is) occasionally), but we don't know when that declined. Cersei can know that the kids can't be his without Robert actually being aware that they can't be. She's paying close attention and controlling their sexual acts, he's drunk most of the time and just erratically attmepting to claim his marital rights without evven being able to remember what happened. Robert is the prime candidate for that most ignorant and boorish of statements "I had a fabulous time last night, got so pissed I can't remember anything".

Bear in mind here that 'sex' just means Robert coming to Cersei's bed, even if nearly blind drunk, with intent, even if nothing happens but he can't remember in the morning.

I think it is beyond ridiculous to insist that Robert couldn't add up enough to tell that Jon was conceived during the early part of the war. Robert's a fantasist and not big on thinking where it comes to his painful personal life, but there isn't much evidence that he is actively stupid/uneducated enough to not understand 9 month pregnancies and therefore know without any thinking 'effort' roughly (give or take a month or two) when baby Jon must have been conceived.

Joan of Arc, on 21 June 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

We all know that Ned is the guardian of the ToJ secrect, which includes R+L=J. There is some kind of deal going on between Ned Stark and the Daynes and it has to do with Jon. At the ToJ the Daynes where in good position to smugle Jon into Dorne, where he as an heir would have had a good life. He visits Starfall where he picks up Wylla, then goes back to Winterfell with his Jon Snow story complete. Later on Wylla travels back South to Starfall and becomes a wet nurse to Eddric Dayne.

So why did the Daynes let Ned go back North with Jon knowing he was a surviving heir?

Firstly, we don't know how much the Daynes are in on things. It could easily have been just Ashara and Arthur, leaving plausible deniability (or just fewer heads makes secret keeping easier) for the rest of the family.

Secondly, even if the Daynes are in on Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, they still don't necessarily know he is legit. In which case they'd have no objection about Ned, his uncle, taking him north.

Thirdly, even if Jon is known by the Daynes to be legit, they might consider ned taking him north the safest path for now.

Fourthly, the Daynes might also be in on the saving of Aegon (theory being Ashara is the best person to look after Aegon so Varys sends Aegon south on a ship which Ashara 'suicides' off the tower into the sea for a rendevous with and becomes Lemore, raising baby Aegon in Essos), making Jon only a 'backup' best kept hidden in a different place. Or maybe only Ashara is in on that part, and the other Daynes don't know. There are many many possibilities here.

Fifthly, Ned has shown great respect and honour to the Daynes, going out of his way to return Dawn to them.

So the summary is:
1. The Daynes may not know Jon is the heir.
2. Jon might not be the heir
3. They might consider that the best place for Jon-the-heir.

Further, Dorne might be secretly wanting revenge on the Lannisters, but it is not certain that Doran would have risked as much as hiding an actual Targaryen heir. Secretly dealing with one in Essos is far, far less risking. Being involved in hiding one could easily see ghe total devastation of Dhorne and the destruction of the Martells entirely. Dhorne, the weakest of the 7 kingdoms, has just been on the losing side of a war where it had 10,000 soldiers involved in a lost battle and risking the wrath of Robert with the full might of every other part of westeros firmly behind him (only the Reach was not, and they hate the Dornish and would jump at a chance to prove their new loyalty) is just unnecessary. Sending the heir to Essos (heck, even to hide in the North) is far far better for Dhorne than hiding him themselves.

Joan of Arc, on 21 June 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

One reason I can think off that the Daynes would not be cooperative with Ned.

It isn't necessary to find THE reason why they might have let him go north. They did it. We therefore only need to show a reason why they might, not invent reasons they should not have.

[Dave X]

<--- Firm believer of R+L=J, after much initial doubt. The line of logic that I believe makes it certain is that Roberts Rebellion is due to L's capture by R. Otherwise what single event caused the rebellion? Besides Aerys II's general madness and inability to rule, all the bad **** really starts AFTER Robert rebels, and no specific event (that i can recall) before. Also: it is afaik not explicitly known how L died, childbirth being my guess and the popular theory though, so where's the kid... It's J. This also provides the plot device for Howland Reeds return... To disclose J's identity. There has been clues enough that at this point this theory was at least at some point Martins intention, and if the theory is wrong it will be because he changed it (his right after all, and if well written a welcome curve ball imo). On the point of R + L being rape, I highly doubt it. We know that Robert claims to have loved L, and he has no reason to lie about that, but no evidence afaik that L loved him. I also find it much more likely  by their respective characters that Robert would lie about R being a rapist because he is upset over the issue , than R actually being a rapist. Anywho...hope GRRM doesn't take another 6 years for book 6, or 12 more for 7 for that matter, or there being more than 7 books honestly. Getting to wrapping it up time IMO.

[Dave X]

In response to some of what I've read on this version of this thread: Ned's honor: my assumption is that the promise he made to L was either to protect J or to keep his lineage secret or both, and that he will not dishonor himself by breaking that oath. I also feel that  Ned is fallible, so even if he did something dishonorable (seed a bastard) so what? This theory kind of makes him one of the bad guys which doesn't sit well with me but I see him as misguided and really Robert as greedy and immature and ultimately right for all the wrong reasons. Roberts  main motive in rebellion was selfish (his love/pride) and Ned's was loyalty to his friend, and the fact that Aerys II was not an acceptable ruler by any standard...so neds motives are human but not perfect...so there's that...lol. As to J being song of fire and ice I don't see that...quite. He is lord commander on the wall made of ice..so he's ice. Dany is Azor Ahai imo so she is fire. And the song of fire and ice is either their union /marriage/ alliance Or Dany is fire and the Others are ice so the song thereof refers to that conflict.

[Dr. Pepper]

Dave X, on 22 June 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

<--- Firm believer of R+L=J, after much initial doubt. The line of logic that I believe makes it certain is that Roberts Rebellion is due to L's capture by R. Otherwise what single event caused the rebellion? Besides Aerys II's general madness and inability to rule, all the bad **** really starts AFTER Robert rebels, and no specific event (that i can recall) before. ... We know that Robert claims to have loved L, and he has no reason to lie about that, but no evidence afaik that L loved him...

The rebellion was caused by Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard and then demanding the heads of Ned and Robert, not by Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together.  Brandon's death may have been justified considering he issued a threat to the crown prince, but Rickard's death does not seem to be justified, and certainly demanding the heads of two other major lords (Robert and Ned) was no justified.  A king can't just start killing off the lords of major houses and not expect retribution.

Robert may have believed he loved Lyanna, but his actions certainly don't indicate that he did.  I think he uses her memory as an excuse for his poor character.  Her memory isn't the only thing he uses to excuse his piss-poor behavior.  He claims to have loved her, yet he never went off to find her and he had a least one orgy during the time he thinks she's being raped.  Not exactly the type of behavior you'd expect from a person who claims undying love for another.

[corbon]

Dave X, on 22 June 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

<--- Firm believer of R+L=J, after much initial doubt. The line of logic that I believe makes it certain is that Roberts Rebellion is due to L's capture by R. Otherwise what single event caused the rebellion? Besides Aerys II's general madness and inability to rule, all the bad **** really starts AFTER Robert rebels, and no specific event (that i can recall) before.

It doesn't have to be a single event. But if it is, it is Aerys calling for the heads of Robert and Ned, who were not in any way involved with prior events.

The murders of Brandon and Rickard, and the calling for the heads of Robert and Ned, happened before Robert rebelled. It was Jon Arryn who rebelled first, refusing to hand over Robert and Ned and calling his banners. Robert and Ned just 'joined in', not really having much choice in the matter.