430 replies to this topic

[Maxpey]

Bushido, on 18 June 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

In response to Maxpey and Thendel.
1. We don't know much about this,so no room for it to be used as an argument.
2. Obvious? Rather the opposite.
3. He calls them "my sons" because in the eyes and the mind of the household they ARE his sons.
4.Many Targs don't have the typical dragon blood features. Jon favours his mother's looks,just like Baelor Breakspear or Rhaegar's daughter. Besides,it may be that Jon's dark eyes hide some extra shade...
5.Exactly? No. They both carry typical Stark features.
6.Blue Rose draws a direct connection to Bael the Bard's story,kidnapped daughter and the son that will carry on the noble family's name. Lyanna loved blue roses,and we have the Harenhall crown,and the petals that spill out of her palm,when dying. And blue roses that have thorns - in Ned's nightmares. (pain connected to them)
7.Jon is a bastard = he has a life of a bastard.
8.He gets irritated because she asks about Jon.
9.Stannis is the rightful heir,on the basis of the conquest. He own his leige to Stannis.

Your responses are quite appropriate, but for the sake of argument (and fun), I would like to respond:

7.  My counter-argument is that Ned would not think of Jon as a bastard if he really was the product of R + L = J.

8.  I have to disagree that it's the subject of Jon that got Ned upset.  If you recall, Catelyn subsequently brought up Jon all the time to Ned, about how she wanted Ned to send him away.  But Ned's reaction to Catelyn talking about Jon and Ashara together made her afraid for the one and only time in their marriage.  As such, I would argue that it was the subject of Ashara that got Ned upset.    

9. One point all supporters of R + L =J make is the fact that Ned never thinks of Jon as his son at all in his POV chapters.  Using this logic, I was just arguing that at no point does Ned think of Jon as the true heir, which you would expect would have crossed Ned's mind at some point.

Edited by Maxpey, 18 June 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Budj]

Perhaps the fact that Ashara had a still birth and killed herself (a conflicting story to Wylla) caused Ned to panic for fear that Robert would question him about the conflicting stories if it got out that no one agreed on the mother...and he just got done finding Lyanna...hmmmm.

[Maxpey]

Budj, on 18 June 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Perhaps the fact that Ashara had a still birth and killed herself (a conflicting story to Wylla) caused Ned to panic for fear that Robert would question him about the conflicting stories if it got out that no one agreed on the mother...and he just got done finding Lyanna...hmmmm.

That is a very reasonable explanation.  
In fact, the fear that Robert would realize that Ned lied to him about Wylla and start asking too many questions was one of the arguments I used when I tried to argue N + A =J in another post.
Basically, I said that the reason Ned did not tell Catelyn and Jon the truth about Ashara was due to the fact that he was so afraid it would get back to Robert, who would then wonder why Ned had lied to him about Wylla.  As you imply in your post, the last think Ned wanted was Robert asking too many questions.

Edited by Maxpey, 18 June 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Bushido]

@maxpey
7. I feel that for Ned,Targaryen reign is indeed dead - and Ned was living a lie for 14 yrs,and was very tormented by that. Besides,he regards Jon as bastard only in connection to himself,not de facto.
8."Never ask me about Jon,"he said,cold as ice."He is my blood and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name,my lady"  - Clearly the stress is on the Jon part.
9.Ned fought the true heir. For him,Robert is true king.

Edited by Bushido, 18 June 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Maxpey]

Bushido, on 18 June 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

@maxpey
7. I feel that for Ned,Targaryen reign is indeed dead - and Ned was living a lie for 14 yrs,and was very tormented by that. Besides,he regards Jon as bastard only in connection to himself,not de facto.
8."Never ask me about Jon,"he said,cold as ice."He is my blood and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name,my lady"  - Clearly the stress is on the Jon part.
9.Ned fought the true heir. For him,Robert is true king.

Very reasonable responses to my counter-arguments.  
Let's hope we don't have to wait too long for GRRM to finally come out and state in one of his final 2 books R + L = J.

[Bushido]

Gods,no,out of all crackpottery,we decide for the reasonable

And what if we just get new bits with TWOW,and have to wait for the last book to finally revel in the confirmation??

[Teal'c]

Bushido, on 18 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Gods,no,out of all crackpottery,we decide for the reasonable

And what if we just get new bits with TWOW,and have to wait for the last book to finally revel in the confirmation??

And then it will probably be in the epilogue...

[Maxpey]

Bushido, on 18 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Gods,no,out of all crackpottery,we decide for the reasonable

And what if we just get new bits with TWOW,and have to wait for the last book to finally revel in the confirmation??

There is a time for reason and a time for crackpottery.  I am sure I will have many more moments of crackpottery in the future, but right now I felt it time for a moment of reason.

Edited by Maxpey, 18 June 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Maxpey]

Budj, on 18 June 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I think I agree with most of your post, Maxpey, my one issue being that I think Ned planned on telling him and to fulfill that promise but...he forgot to plan for the case he got his head chopped off and never got to go back North...failing Jon and Lyanna.

You can never truly plan for the unexpected, can you?

[Lady Octarina]

Bushido, on 18 June 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

And what if we just get new bits with TWOW,and have to wait for the last book to finally revel in the confirmation??

Even worse: what if we learn the whole truth in TWoW and it isn't half as exciting as we want the reveal to be? This thought alone almost makes me abandon this thread just to be able to actually feel something when I read those pages by Martin.

[FrozenFire3]

LadyMary, on 18 June 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Ned chose his family over his honor at other times as well. He confessed to a crime he didn't commit in order to keep his daughters safe in Kings Landing, for which he would have forfeited his title and lands and been banished to the Night's Watch but Joffrey decided to behead him as a traitor instead.

Sorry, what I meant was: "...as I said in a previous post, this is one of the only times when Ned etc..." in relation to one of my posts on page one

LadyMary, on 18 June 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

I'll have to respectfully disagree with this.  Ned thinks to himself:  "Some secrets are too dangerous to tell even those you love and trust." He didn't tell his own wife that he lied about being unfaithful to her even though the lie dishonored himself and shamed his wife, because he believed the lie more honorable than leaving Jon vulnerable by having his secret out. He knew exactly how Robert felt about Rhaegar and the rest of the Targaryens and he had reason to fear Robert's wrath against him for protecting the last viable claimant to the Targaryen dynasty. He may have calculated that it was safer to keep the secret even from Jon, than to risk letting it slip out to someone who could use it against him.  If Jon's existence threatened the safety of Ned's rule of the North and the destiny of his wife and children, Catelyn would have protected her own children by insisting that Ned give up Lyanna's son, even if Ned wouldn't have otherwise. I think there were just too many "what if's" that Ned couldn't answer and he chose the safest course even if it meant tarnishing his own reputation as an honorable man.

We can't possibly know if Jon would have chosen any other course if he'd known he was Lyanna's son instead of Ned's.  I suppose he could have been placed as a foster at one of Ned's vassals or a squire to some knight, but the fact that he was Rhaegar's son would make him a target of Robert even though Rhaegar was long dead and the Targaryen dynasty ended. Robert took Rhaegar's actions (stealing Lyanna) personally and never got over it. Ned was loyal to Robert and wasn't going to wage war to take the throne for his sister's son, and as the son of Ned's sister Jon would have basically no claim on Winterfell with Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya ahead of him. His desire to be a ranger like his uncle, and the long history of Starks manning the Night's Watch probably looked like the best choice to a young Northern boy who craved adventure. He wouldn't be the only noble-born man who chose that occupation. Why should Ned dissuade him when there really were no other options and he needed it settled quickly because he was leaving Winterfell to travel to Kings Landing?

I absolutely agree with you. It would have been too dangerous for many reasons. I'm sure he would have been one of Robert's next targets. But, I believe Jon had a right to know when he left for the Night's watch. Becoming a sworn brother is so final, he should have known, in my humble opinion.

Edited by FrozenFire3, 18 June 2012 - 12:44 PM.

[FrozenFire3]

Dr. Pepper, on 18 June 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

Jon's choice is a real choice because he was raised as Ned's son, not as his nephew.  Any parental figure, no matter biological or adoptive, has a hand in determining their children's future choices.  I don't know why it would be so important for Jon to have known that he was basically adopted.  Would anyone be concerned about Ned not telling Jon if he was actually the son of Brandon and a whore?  Is it just because potential power and riches are involved in his biological parentage that it becomes important?

I think that what partly influenced Jon's choice, though, was that he didn't really fit, if you know what I mean. Of course, he thought of the night's watch as an honourable place to be in, as an elite force, but I believe his choice was partly (and probably unconsciously) due to the fact that there was really nothing else he could do. He couldn't inherit Winterfell and become a lord, couldn't go to King's Landing with his father. Catelyn didn't even want him...
Maybe if he had known the truth, things would have been different. Or maybe he would have decided the same... who knows?
At least, this is what I think

Edited by FrozenFire3, 18 June 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Budj]

NW = land of misfit toys.  when I think of Bowen Marsh I think of the Jack in the box....and wun wun is the abominable snowman.

[Lady Hummingbird]

Maxpey, on 18 June 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Very reasonable responses to my counter-arguments.  
Let's hope we don't have to wait too long for GRRM to finally come out and state in one of his final 2 books R + L = J.

I think "when" the statement would be made it's irrelevant, we already know it's going to happen sooner or later, what I wonder is how will Jon (or any other character that's bound to know) find out about Lyanna. Jon is not the kind of guy who takes someone words for it, the whole "hey you know what lord Snow? you are a Targaryen!" scenario it's very unlikely, he needs some proofs.

[Maxpey]

Lady Hummingbird, on 18 June 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think "when" the statement would be made it's irrelevant, we already know it's going to happen sooner or later, what I wonder is how will Jon (or any other character that's bound to know) find out about Lyanna. Jon is not the kind of guy who takes someone words for it, the whole "hey you know what lord Snow? you are a Targaryen!" scenario it's very unlikely, he needs some proofs.

I think you are right that the "how will Jon find out the truth" is the only mystery left.
Although, there is always the possibility that Jon never finds out.
I have said in other posts that it would not surprise me if GRRM does not have Jon  ever find out the truth and I speculated that the readers will find out in the epilogue to ADOS, with Bran seeing the truth through the Weirwood.

Edited by Maxpey, 18 June 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[FrozenFire3]

Lady Hummingbird, on 18 June 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I think "when" the statement would be made it's irrelevant, we already know it's going to happen sooner or later, what I wonder is how will Jon (or any other character that's bound to know) find out about Lyanna. Jon is not the kind of guy who takes someone words for it, the whole "hey you know what lord Snow? you are a Targaryen!" scenario it's very unlikely, he needs some proofs.

It'l likely Ben will show up sooner or later (I don't think he's just dead)... maybe it will be him who reveals the truth to Jon. For my part, I'd prefer if he had some sort of visions (maybe when he's in a coma?)... that way he could see first hand what happened in the past, who his parents are, thus who he is. But I guess we'll just have to wait for that...

Edited by FrozenFire3, 18 June 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Bushido]

Lady Octarina, on 18 June 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Even worse: what if we learn the whole truth in TWoW and it isn't half as exciting as we want the reveal to be? This thought alone almost makes me abandon this thread just to be able to actually feel something when I read those pages by Martin.

Oh,I am sure that the story will be as sadly beautiful as fated; It is the time until we find out that bugs me...

[Baelor Blackfyre]

Budj, on 18 June 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

We know the raven can mimick words.  Not all words come from BR - the question is was BR saying dead. dead. dead. or was it just the raven repeating what it had heard?

I think anytime the raven says, "Corn!", we can assume that's just the raven. Because he say's this quite often and no one is ever talking about corn when he says it, so he's not mimicking. So with this logic we can assume that anytime he says something else, such as "Dead" or "King", it's most likely Bloodraven warging into him. He passes off his vital information as mimicking, so that he's subtly influencing them. and so that they don't trip out that a raven is actually talking to them.

And then to respond to people debating about why didn't Ned consider Jon an heir or that perhaps Lyanna also made him promise to tell him about his heritage so that he could have a right to the throne. I don't get it. That was never Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan for Jon, and definitely not Lyanna's when she was on her deathbed.

Their whole goal was to fulfill the prophecy, so that Jon could have the potential to become AA. Not take the Iron Throne and rule. Being King was never really part of their agenda. It sure as hell wasn't part of Rhaegar's agenda. He was obsessed about prophecy and let his own father rule as a madman. Being king wasn't important to him, saving the realm was.

And I highly doubt that Lyanna made Ned promise anything more than, "keep him safe". She was dying. There was only one thing on her mind. The safety of the child.

And if you really think about it, why would they even want Jon to know about the prophecy stuff? Wouldn't it be better if he lived his life on his own accord, unburdened by the thought of prophecy, so that he may actually fulfill it the way it's supposed to be fulfilled, all natural. When people know about prophecies they become obsessed, and they always try and force it to happen, and they almost always fail. Such as Summerhall.

If Jon is meant to fulfill the prophecy, he will, based off his own free will. And there is no need for him to know about it.

Edited by Baelor Blackfyre, 18 June 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[Bushido]

Ned speaks of broken promises... !
I feel that what is tormenting Ned is more serious that just keeping Jon safe. Remember,if Lyanna indeed wanted Jon safe,and safe only,Ned sending Jon to Wall is basically staying true to the promise.
But,if Lyanna asked for him to give Jon what's rightfully his,the pain us even greated,for Ned didn't tried and failed,but chose not to act upon that. And that alone can taunt Ned over years.

Edited by Bushido, 18 June 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[Maxpey]

Baelor Blackfyre, on 18 June 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I think anytime the raven says, "Corn!", we can assume that's just the raven. Because he say's this quite often and no one is ever talking about corn when he says it, so he's not mimicking. So with this logic we can assume that anytime he says something else, such as "Dead" or "King", it's most likely Bloodraven warging into him. He passes off his vital information as mimicking, so that he's subtly influencing them. and so that they don't trip out that a raven is actually talking to them.

And then to respond to people debating about why didn't Ned consider Jon an heir or that perhaps Lyanna also made him promise to tell him about his heritage so that he could have a right to the throne. I don't get it. That was never Rhaegar and Lyanna's plan for Jon, and definitely not Lyanna's when she was on her deathbed.

Their whole goal was to fulfill the prophecy, so that Jon could have the potential to become AA. Not take the Iron Throne and rule. Being King was never really part of their agenda. It sure as hell wasn't part of Rhaegar's agenda. He was obsessed about prophecy and let his own father rule as a madman. Being king wasn't important to him, saving the realm was.

And I highly doubt that Lyanna made Ned promise anything more than, "keep him safe". She was dying. There was only one thing on her mind. The safety of the child.

And if you really think about it, why would they even want Jon to know about the prophecy stuff? Wouldn't it be better if he lived his life on his own accord, unburdened by the thought of prophecy, so that he may actually fulfill it the way it's supposed to be fulfilled, all natural. When people know about prophecies they become obsessed, and they always try and force it to happen, and they almost always fail. Such as Summerhall.

If Jon is meant to fulfill the prophecy, he will, based off his own free will. And there is no need for him to know about it.

I wasn't suggesting that Lyanna made Ned promise to tell Jon about his heritage so that he could assume the throne; rather, so that Jon could fulfill the prophecy.

I would disagree about Rhaegar and Lyanna  not wanting Jon to know about the prophecy.  To the contrary, I would think that both of them would have felt it was vital that Jon be told at some point so that he can be in the best position to fulfill the prophecy.
I am not saying that I would have handled the matter in the same way, as I tend to agree with you that obsession about prophesies can serve to distort a person's perspective.  
However, I think it's apparent that Rhaegar was already consumed by the idea of prophecy, first thinking that he was the PWWP and then thinking that his heir would be the PWWP.  Look at how he turned his world upside down, both literally and figuratively, in order to ensure that the prophesies came true.
Lyanna could easily have shared Rhaegar's thoughts about this.  As such, it is logical to assume that she would think that Jon had to know how important he was in order for the prophesy to be realized.  Otherwise,  it would be risking too much to chance.

Just an idea.

Edited by Maxpey, 18 June 2012 - 02:25 PM.