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[Book spoilers] RW: Season 3 or 4? part 2


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#1 Angalin

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 05:59 PM

It's been 100% confirmed that the Red Wedding will be in Season 3.
And I would expect Season 4 to finish off with the final half/third of ASoS about halfway through and from that point that on that they will just work through AFFC and ADWD simultaneously.
Thats how they're written, the books might be split but it is still all happening at roughly the same time, so as far as adapting it goes they've got everything they need for all characters.

Ok, let me have a try.

Episode 1 needs to pick up on most of the principal characters. The major new characters will probably be introduced during the first third of the season.

3.01: Catelyn receives the news of her father's illness/death. Arya has a wolf dream in which she kills her pursuers. Jon meets Mance. Tyrion confronts Tywin. Ser Dontos vows to free Sansa. Jaime and Brienne are taken by the Brave Companions. Daenerys goes to the docks and meets Arstan. Davos is picked up by Salladhor Saan.
3.02: Arya is captured by the Brotherhood Without Banners. Jon and the Wildlings investigate the aftermath of the battle at the Fist of the First Men. Bran meets the Reeds. Sansa meets Margaery and Lady Olenna. Ser Jorah convinces Dany to go to Astapor. The Night's Watch is fleeing from the Others and Sam slays one.
3.03: Robb and Catelyn arrive at Riverrun; Lord Hoster's burial. Arya and the Outlaws at High Heart. Sansa and Margaery bond, but Ser Dontos warns Sansa of the Tyrells. Jaime and Brienne are brought to Vargo Hoat, who hacks off Jaime's hand. Davos plans to kill Melisandre and is taken into custody.
3.04: Robb plans to make amends with Lord Frey. Littlefinger leaves for the Vale and Tyrion is named Master of Coins. The Reeds tell Bran the story of the Tourney at Harrenhal. Dany inspects the Unsullied in Astapor.
3.05: Rickard Kastark kills Lannister hostages and is executed by Robb. Arya is brought before Beric Dondarrion; the Hound arrives and duels with Beric. Jon and the Wildlings scale the Wall. Melisandre visits Davos. Dany frees the slaves of Astapor.
3.06: Arya is kidnapped by the Hound. Sansa is wedded to Tyrion. Davos is named Lord; the burning of the leeches. Lord Mormont is killed at Craster's keep.
3.07 "Autumn Storms": Bran and Jon at Queenscrown; Jon escapes the Wildlings. Jaime and Brienne are brought to Roose Bolton at Harrenhal. Daenerys meets Daario Naharis and defeats Yunkai. Davos reads Lord Mormont's letter. Balon Greyjoy dies in a storm.
3.08: Robb, Catelyn and Arya at the Twins; the Red Wedding. Jon reaches Castle Black. Sam and Gilly are rescued by Coldhands.
3.09: The Lannisters discuss the Red Wedding. Sansa learns of Robb's and Catelyn's death. Arya and the Hound encounter Polliver; Sandor is wounded. The battle of Castle Black; Ygritte dies. Bolton departs Harrenhal and Jaime rescues Brienne. Dany besieges Mereen and learns of Arstan's and Jorah's secrets.
3.10: The Purple Wedding: Joffrey dies and Tyrion is taken captive. Sansa escapes with Dontos and meets Littlefinger on a boat. Arya leaves the Hound to die and boards a ship to Braavos. Jon witnesses Mance's army at the wall and is told by Maester Aemon that he must lead the Night's Watch. Bran meets Sam at the Nightfort and crosses the Black Gate.Davos sends Edric Storm away and confronts Stannis and Melisandre.

Some events probably need to be moved around a bit. There are some episodes in which little happens compared to others.

Great Line up. Pretty much agree. I do think a few small adjustments need to be made though. I'd slow down Jon's story and have it climax at the Queenscrown with Ygritte's Death (maybe Summer/Bran rips her up?) and end up just with Jon arriving back at the Wall. It closes up the Wilding part better in one season and gives breathing room to Jon. But it also means Bran's story is slowed down as well. I don't think that's a problem and Sam/Gilly's arrival back at Castle Black can be shifted quite easily.

Similarly, I don't think we need to see Arya taking a ship to Bravos. That's a lot of story for two episodes where the Purple Wedding is to happen as well. And it can be shifted back quite easily.

Also, I'd put the burning of the Leeches in the same episode as Balon's Death. I do think we will see Davos learning to read with Shireen (it's an interesting scene when he realizes what he is reading...), but when should this happen?

Also, you don't have any scenes with Theon and Ramsay which I guess we could see. I'm especially looking forward to a montage of Asha/Yara, Balon and Robb receiving parts of Theon... /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />

After all, one would need to "count" all these episodes through and see if they work time-wise. But that's one thing the producers already do and which we can't really do anyways. But I am curious to compare your list with the final product.



#2 Lord commander_Snow

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:41 PM

i love lauren /biggrin.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#3 Liabe Brave

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 10:55 PM

I'm a strong proponent of the Red Wedding being at the beginning of season 4. Partly that's simply because of how the book placed it. Recall that not only is the RW after the halfway point, but a big chunk of the end is a series of Jon/Sam chapters showing the evolving Lord Commander vote process. That stuff will be very compressible onscreen, so the RW is actually even later in the plot than its page position would indicate.

It's not that I think the book structure is sacrosanct; I'm totally on board with changes. But they need to serve the greater artistic needs. Too much of the thread-pulling in season 2 weakened Martin's weaving of motivations (Robb's marriage and Cat's freeing Jaime being the most egregious). And with Robb's death seeming imminent even to non-readers, putting yet another big twist/tragedy into episode 9 will make the plot structure feel more predictable than ever.

That said, I'm convinced the RW will be the climax of season 3...I just don't think that's the best idea. And I really don't understand the folks here arguing that the Purple Wedding also needs to be in season 3, with tons of Feast/Dance stuff moved up to season 4. Season 2 already felt a little disjointed due to how much ground it had to cover. How can trying to jam an even larger amount of material into the same 10-episode space be a good thing? Remember that it wouldn't just be the first three-quarters of Storm, but also all the stuff pushed back from Clash. I would far, far prefer that the narrative be given room to breathe.

#4 Wowwars

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:00 PM

One thing for 1: Shouldnt Snow be meeting Mance first?

#5 oierem

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:20 AM

There's almost no "stuff pushed back" from Clash, only Dany's last chapter, if I'm not wrong. And of course, the introduction of the Reeds (but Bran doesn't have much to do in Storm, so it's just giving him something to do) and the Tully's (again, Robb/Cat's storyline is so advanced that they need some extra material here).

Other than that, we've already seen the first Jaime chapter from Storms, and we've seen Robb's wedding and Cat's reaction to it. And of course, the prologue.

And season 2 finale strongly hinted that Littlefinger is going to help Sansa go home and Joffrey and Marggaery's wedding is bound to happen soon. I can't see of any narrative/dramatic reasons to pospone it for an entire season, leaving all those characters inactive (and Sansa, somehow, still safe from Joffrey). The only reason is that "it happens in the later half of the book", which is not a good argument.

#6 Liabe Brave

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 03:50 AM

There's almost no "stuff pushed back" from Clash, only Dany's last chapter, if I'm not wrong. And of course, the introduction of the Reeds (but Bran doesn't have much to do in Storm, so it's just giving him something to do) and the Tully's (again, Robb/Cat's storyline is so advanced that they need some extra material here).

And, by casting news, the introduction of Selyse and Shireen, so stuff on Dragonstone. In addition, I strongly suspect they're going to add Theon's flashback material in real time (escape attempt, recapture). Of course, if all they do is throw those people up on the screen, they can breeze through it quickly. But is that really what you want to see? Me personally, I'd rather get the backstory on Cat/Lysa/Petyr as kids, and some hints about the Jon Arryn plot. I'd like to see some development of the Blackfish, not just "here's a sharp-tongued badass". I'd like to see some development of Shireen (especially with Davos), not just "here's a deformed kid". I want to hear Jojen talk about green dreams and skinchangers, I want to hear Meera tell the tale of Eddard and Ashara. Yes, all that could easily be cut out. But I for one don't just want the plot skeleton onscreen, with no time for characters to breathe and live.

And season 2 finale strongly hinted that Littlefinger is going to help Sansa go home and Joffrey and Marggaery's wedding is bound to happen soon. I can't see of any narrative/dramatic reasons to pospone it for an entire season, leaving all those characters inactive (and Sansa, somehow, still safe from Joffrey). The only reason is that "it happens in the later half of the book", which is not a good argument.

That isn't the only reason (and note that I already said it isn't one I accept either). Just as in the book, Sansa is (temporarily) safe from Joffrey because she's married off to Tyrion. Since Dontos has been shown several times, it seems to me that Petyr's initial offer will be rejected, leaving Sansa getting what she thinks is a longshot second offer from Dontos...making the reveal of Baelish being behind it too even more a shock. (Alternately, Littlefinger might convince her to work with Dontos, but that would take some outside-the-book development as well.) And Joff's wedding is a gigantic affair that can easily take a whole season to prepare. Especially if, once Sansa reveals Joff's character, the Tyrells intentionally delay it to plot murder.

And there's more to keep the King's Landing characters active. Show Shae is less window-dressing than her book version, so there'll likely be more stuff with her. Show Margaery is a clear plotter, so there'll be stuff between her and Cersei to set up that antagonism (Lancel replacing the Kettleblacks? Marg starts to surreptitiously woo Tommen?). Show Olenna will need more than one or two scenes. I bet we'll get Tywin as more of a main character, versus Varys and Tyrion and so on.

Keep in mind that the S04E01 Red Wedding I'm advocating requires a maximum of three extra episodes (depending on where you'd put it in S03). There's plenty of material for that.

The point of delay is not to slavishly follow the pagination in the books, but to accentuate the theme of the books: that history is shaped by unforeseen personal decisions. Having a Red Wedding climax in S03 would just be predictably repeating the structure of S01 and S02. Ned's death isn't just for shock, it's to convey meaning (there are no inevitable heroes here). I'm convinced that having the Red Wedding in S04 adds both shock value and meaning (there is no inevitability of events here) greater than a S03-climax version.

All this is just wind, of course. I remain convinced that the Red Wedding will be the climax of S03. I just feel that, like many of the show's decisions, it'll ramp up the visceral impact but lower the aesthetic power of the story.

#7 protar

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:39 AM

And, by casting news, the introduction of Selyse and Shireen, so stuff on Dragonstone. In addition, I strongly suspect they're going to add Theon's flashback material in real time (escape attempt, recapture). Of course, if all they do is throw those people up on the screen, they can breeze through it quickly. But is that really what you want to see? Me personally, I'd rather get the backstory on Cat/Lysa/Petyr as kids, and some hints about the Jon Arryn plot. I'd like to see some development of the Blackfish, not just "here's a sharp-tongued badass". I'd like to see some development of Shireen (especially with Davos), not just "here's a deformed kid". I want to hear Jojen talk about green dreams and skinchangers, I want to hear Meera tell the tale of Eddard and Ashara. Yes, all that could easily be cut out. But I for one don't just want the plot skeleton onscreen, with no time for characters to breathe and live.


That isn't the only reason (and note that I already said it isn't one I accept either). Just as in the book, Sansa is (temporarily) safe from Joffrey because she's married off to Tyrion. Since Dontos has been shown several times, it seems to me that Petyr's initial offer will be rejected, leaving Sansa getting what she thinks is a longshot second offer from Dontos...making the reveal of Baelish being behind it too even more a shock. (Alternately, Littlefinger might convince her to work with Dontos, but that would take some outside-the-book development as well.) And Joff's wedding is a gigantic affair that can easily take a whole season to prepare. Especially if, once Sansa reveals Joff's character, the Tyrells intentionally delay it to plot murder.

And there's more to keep the King's Landing characters active. Show Shae is less window-dressing than her book version, so there'll likely be more stuff with her. Show Margaery is a clear plotter, so there'll be stuff between her and Cersei to set up that antagonism (Lancel replacing the Kettleblacks? Marg starts to surreptitiously woo Tommen?). Show Olenna will need more than one or two scenes. I bet we'll get Tywin as more of a main character, versus Varys and Tyrion and so on.

Keep in mind that the S04E01 Red Wedding I'm advocating requires a maximum of three extra episodes (depending on where you'd put it in S03). There's plenty of material for that.

The point of delay is not to slavishly follow the pagination in the books, but to accentuate the theme of the books: that history is shaped by unforeseen personal decisions. Having a Red Wedding climax in S03 would just be predictably repeating the structure of S01 and S02. Ned's death isn't just for shock, it's to convey meaning (there are no inevitable heroes here). I'm convinced that having the Red Wedding in S04 adds both shock value and meaning (there is no inevitability of events here) greater than a S03-climax version.

All this is just wind, of course. I remain convinced that the Red Wedding will be the climax of S03. I just feel that, like many of the show's decisions, it'll ramp up the visceral impact but lower the aesthetic power of the story.


The RW must be in season 3. There is no other suitable event before it that acts as a proper season finale. Dracarys can be used as a finale, but on it's own we only have Dany's arc getting a suitable climax. The RW is needed as well in order to wrap up the plots in Westeros. The same shock factor you propose can be achieved by putting the PW in early S4. The producers would be foolish to strip a season of its logical climax just for the shake of shock value next season.

#8 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:44 AM

The RW must be in season 3. There is no other suitable event before it that acts as a proper season finale. Dracarys can be used as a finale, but on it's own we only have Dany's arc getting a suitable climax. The RW is needed as well in order to wrap up the plots in Westeros. The same shock factor you propose can be achieved by putting the PW in early S4. The producers would be foolish to strip a season of its logical climax just for the shake of shock value next season.

The RW is however not really an ending climax and was never intended as one given its placement in the book. Not saying that it shouldn't be in the third season, just that it cannot be the last episode because it would have been like ending season one on Baelor. Aside from the fact that a good portion of SOS before the RW is about build up to the RW and can be condensed (especially since Robb and Catelyn's story has basically gotten them about 1/3 of the way through their SOS path this season), ending with the Purple Wedding ends all the kings that looked to be in a good place at the beginnning of the season and it is a good ending for the KL story arch. Stannis is the beaten king at the beginning of Season 3 and by the end he's basically the only one left standing of the Five Kings.

#9 Rapsie

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:51 AM

Ending with the Purple Wedding and Tyrion being arrested and not knowing if Sansa escapes or not, are good cliffhangers and less down beat than the Red Wedding. Also it let's us meet the Martells and the rest of the Greyjoys in Season 4 as opposed to season 5 (where we will be meeting Connington, Meereen society etc.

#10 milk

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:38 PM

season 3 episode 7 or 8 works for the RW. and i'd love to see the PW at the season 4 opener, it'd really be an awesome opening to make the lannisters position of power that much less secure for the rest of the season

#11 oierem

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

And, by casting news, the introduction of Selyse and Shireen, so stuff on Dragonstone. In addition, I strongly suspect they're going to add Theon's flashback material in real time (escape attempt, recapture). Of course, if all they do is throw those people up on the screen, they can breeze through it quickly. But is that really what you want to see? Me personally, I'd rather get the backstory on Cat/Lysa/Petyr as kids, and some hints about the Jon Arryn plot. I'd like to see some development of the Blackfish, not just "here's a sharp-tongued badass". I'd like to see some development of Shireen (especially with Davos), not just "here's a deformed kid". I want to hear Jojen talk about green dreams and skinchangers, I want to hear Meera tell the tale of Eddard and Ashara. Yes, all that could easily be cut out. But I for one don't just want the plot skeleton onscreen, with no time for characters to breathe and live.


That isn't the only reason (and note that I already said it isn't one I accept either). Just as in the book, Sansa is (temporarily) safe from Joffrey because she's married off to Tyrion. Since Dontos has been shown several times, it seems to me that Petyr's initial offer will be rejected, leaving Sansa getting what she thinks is a longshot second offer from Dontos...making the reveal of Baelish being behind it too even more a shock. (Alternately, Littlefinger might convince her to work with Dontos, but that would take some outside-the-book development as well.) And Joff's wedding is a gigantic affair that can easily take a whole season to prepare. Especially if, once Sansa reveals Joff's character, the Tyrells intentionally delay it to plot murder.

And there's more to keep the King's Landing characters active. Show Shae is less window-dressing than her book version, so there'll likely be more stuff with her. Show Margaery is a clear plotter, so there'll be stuff between her and Cersei to set up that antagonism (Lancel replacing the Kettleblacks? Marg starts to surreptitiously woo Tommen?). Show Olenna will need more than one or two scenes. I bet we'll get Tywin as more of a main character, versus Varys and Tyrion and so on.

Keep in mind that the S04E01 Red Wedding I'm advocating requires a maximum of three extra episodes (depending on where you'd put it in S03). There's plenty of material for that.

The point of delay is not to slavishly follow the pagination in the books, but to accentuate the theme of the books: that history is shaped by unforeseen personal decisions. Having a Red Wedding climax in S03 would just be predictably repeating the structure of S01 and S02. Ned's death isn't just for shock, it's to convey meaning (there are no inevitable heroes here). I'm convinced that having the Red Wedding in S04 adds both shock value and meaning (there is no inevitability of events here) greater than a S03-climax version.

All this is just wind, of course. I remain convinced that the Red Wedding will be the climax of S03. I just feel that, like many of the show's decisions, it'll ramp up the visceral impact but lower the aesthetic power of the story.


Thanks for the well-reasoned post. We'll have to agree to disagree but you've explained your reasons quite well.

Just a few comments:
Shireen and Selyse don't have any significant appearance in Clash, so, although they have to be introduced, they don't need to add anything from the previous book. And in any case, Stannis doesn't have almost anything to do this season, so any added material would be good.

About Theon, I cannot comment on that, since I haven't read Dance yet (I'm starting tonight!), but showing an escape attempt seems like a bad idea: if it doesn't achieve anything, it's just filler. For example, Jaime's escape attempt this season was shown because it changed the situation quite dramatically, forcing Catelyn to act and free him (in the very same episode).

Jon Arryn's plot is pretty much forgotten by now, and I agree that it shouldn't be, but the truth won't be revealed this season anyway, so....
(I just hope they remember to explain Bran's assassin!)

I do want to see character development, but keeping the plot moving, that's how you develop characters in a TV series. keep in mind that you have several seasons to develop those characters. And most probably, most of the backstories and tales won't make it.

Joffrey's wedding will take a whole season to prepare in any case.. but what I'm suggesting is to have the preparations thourghout the season and then the pay-off in the finale. You're suggesting to have a whole season of preparation... leading nowhere! Honestly, I cannot see that working. Is like having all the build up to Blackwater and leave it for season 3!

In any case, what's Joffrey going to do this season then? In the book he has just a couple of scenes, threating Sansa about having sex with her.

I do agree with avoiding the predictability of the RW. That's why it shouldn't be in episode 9! It should be episode 8 at the very most (and I'd like to see it earlier), and people should assume that Robb is going to have a major battle in episode 9 against the Greyjoys... only to be killed earlier! And then the PW in episode 10-.

#12 protar

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:28 PM

The RW is however not really an ending climax and was never intended as one given its placement in the book. Not saying that it shouldn't be in the third season, just that it cannot be the last episode because it would have been like ending season one on Baelor. Aside from the fact that a good portion of SOS before the RW is about build up to the RW and can be condensed (especially since Robb and Catelyn's story has basically gotten them about 1/3 of the way through their SOS path this season), ending with the Purple Wedding ends all the kings that looked to be in a good place at the beginnning of the season and it is a good ending for the KL story arch. Stannis is the beaten king at the beginning of Season 3 and by the end he's basically the only one left standing of the Five Kings.


That's why I believe we need a one-two punch with RW in E9, then Dracarys and episode 10, with the RW tying up a lot of the plots in Westeros, and Dracarys acting as the finale and being all uplifting and such.

#13 Sasha Steelsong

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:03 PM

That's why I believe we need a one-two punch with RW in E9, then Dracarys and episode 10, with the RW tying up a lot of the plots in Westeros, and Dracarys acting as the finale and being all uplifting and such.

And then KL story is left hanging. The one-two punch in the story is the RW and seven chapters later (all the chapters in between having either a reaction to the RW or prep for the PW or both) the PW. The one-two punch is precisely that it looked like the Lannisters had won everything and then in an instant the land is back in chaos. What happens as the climax in KL if not the wedding they have spent all season preparing for? Dracarys is not enough to build a season ending around (though it will likely be part of the finale) as it only deals with the smallest aspect of the story, where as KL has easily 1/3 of the major players. Plus there is just the simple fact that fans will riot if Joffery, who is so much worse in the show than the books, lives out the season that Robb is slaughtered in. For that reason it makes much more sense to have things play out in the following way:

3.8 - Red Wedding
3.9 - Red Wedding aftermath/Jon defends the wall from the Thens
3.10 - Purple wedding - ending with Tyrion's arrest and Sansa fleeing KL/Dracarys/The horns blowing twice and a shot of the wildling army at the wall.

#14 FSBA

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:54 PM

Funny how alot of people complain about storylines being rushed and now people are screaming for the Purple Wedding to be in Season 3 instead of 4.

Having the PW ending S3 and thusly having to move the opening quarter of AFOC/ADWD is going to force D&D's hand about a prequel series. Even if Martin get's Winds of Winter out by the time S4 is done with the current schedule you guys are talking about the season designed to cover Book 7 would have to be postponed.

#15 Marie August

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:31 PM

I don't care if the Purple Wedding is in Season 3 or 4. As long as the writers don't alter one of the key plotlines too much, or add in something weird to stretch things out.

#16 Liabe Brave

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:22 PM

The RW must be in season 3. There is no other suitable event before it that acts as a proper season finale. Dracarys can be used as a finale, but on it's own we only have Dany's arc getting a suitable climax. The RW is needed as well in order to wrap up the plots in Westeros. The same shock factor you propose can be achieved by putting the PW in early S4. The producers would be foolish to strip a season of its logical climax just for the shake of shock value next season.

I agree that apart from the Red Wedding, there's no giant climax for season 3, but that's explicitly what I'm calling for. I've reread the books multiple times not for the giant turning points (enjoyable as they are), but for the psychology and the atmosphere. Those things, I'm convinced, would be better served by keeping the structure less tightly-wound than S02. It's not like the material would be boring. For S03 thread ends you'd have: a presumed-dead Bran sees but misses Jon; Jon has to abandon Ygritte (either killing her then, or knowing he's making that inevitable); Cat discovers disturbing hints about Jon Arryn's murder; Robb formulates a plan to use Edmure's upcoming Frey marriage as a decoy for an attack on the Greyjoy invaders; Davos manages to make good win on Dragonstone; Sansa is given new hope when Dontos sets Joff's wedding as their escape night; Tyrion has a big fight with Shae; Cersei is outfoxed by Margaery (or vice versa); and Tywin hints that he's got a plan to destroy Robb. And if those don't sound intense enough for you, how about: Theon gets flayed; Dany and her dragons take Astapor; Arya murders Polliver and recovers Needle; and a man on an elk saves Sam and Gilly from wights...only he's got cold, dead hands.

About Theon, I cannot comment on that, since I haven't read Dance yet (I'm starting tonight!), but showing an escape attempt seems like a bad idea: if it doesn't achieve anything, it's just filler.

In the book, it's relatively disposable, just another instance of Ramsay's evil. But in the show we haven't seen the psychotic craziness of him impersonating Reek, so here's an opportunity to add it back.

Joffrey's wedding will take a whole season to prepare in any case.. but what I'm suggesting is to have the preparations thourghout the season and then the pay-off in the finale. You're suggesting to have a whole season of preparation... leading nowhere! Honestly, I cannot see that working. Is like having all the build up to Blackwater and leave it for season 3!

Except that non-readers don't know that the wedding will be as violent as Blackwater! To them it won't be a twist opportunity, but a dreaded alliance that'll cement the Lannister stranglehold on the throne. Yes, it might seem unduly delayed across a whole season. So then you drop hints that the Tyrells themselves seem to be pushing it back. Why? Find out next season!

I do agree with avoiding the predictability of the RW. That's why it shouldn't be in episode 9! It should be episode 8 at the very most (and I'd like to see it earlier), and people should assume that Robb is going to have a major battle in episode 9 against the Greyjoys... only to be killed earlier! And then the PW in episode 10-.

Given that I do believe the Red Wedding will be in S03, I agree that this is the least possible evil. It lessens the predictability, which is very good. And it ameliorates the misleading "nothing good will ever happen" feeling that a Red-but-not-Purple S03 would have. But it's giving up so much screentime! That approach, carried to the end, would see the whole story wrapping up in about eight seasons. A timeline that quick would necessitate abandoning almost all the nuance and grace notes that make the books enjoyable to me.

#17 oierem

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 03:30 AM

Do you really believe that they have a chance of having more than eight seasons? I highly doubt it.
Anyway, I think eight season should be enough for this story.

#18 protar

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 03:57 AM

I agree that apart from the Red Wedding, there's no giant climax for season 3, but that's explicitly what I'm calling for. I've reread the books multiple times not for the giant turning points (enjoyable as they are), but for the psychology and the atmosphere. Those things, I'm convinced, would be better served by keeping the structure less tightly-wound than S02. It's not like the material would be boring. For S03 thread ends you'd have: a presumed-dead Bran sees but misses Jon; Jon has to abandon Ygritte (either killing her then, or knowing he's making that inevitable); Cat discovers disturbing hints about Jon Arryn's murder; Robb formulates a plan to use Edmure's upcoming Frey marriage as a decoy for an attack on the Greyjoy invaders; Davos manages to make good win on Dragonstone; Sansa is given new hope when Dontos sets Joff's wedding as their escape night; Tyrion has a big fight with Shae; Cersei is outfoxed by Margaery (or vice versa); and Tywin hints that he's got a plan to destroy Robb. And if those don't sound intense enough for you, how about: Theon gets flayed; Dany and her dragons take Astapor; Arya murders Polliver and recovers Needle; and a man on an elk saves Sam and Gilly from wights...only he's got cold, dead hands.


What you propose would be dramatic enough for the midseason, but not for the finale. Each season should end with a one-two game changer. S1 had Ned's death and the birth of the dragons: The former started off the WOTFK in earnest and the latter represented the return of magic to the world. S2 had Blackwater and the Three Horn Blasts: The former drastically changing the political landscape in KL and the latter bringing the lurking danger of the WW's into the foreground. S3 cannot end on just a collection of dramatic events. Instead it needs that one-two hit: either a RW-Dracarys hit, or a RW-PW hit.

#19 DaveSumm

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 05:20 AM

Funny how alot of people complain about storylines being rushed and now people are screaming for the Purple Wedding to be in Season 3 instead of 4......


Quite. It seems between the 'you're rushing it too much!' and the 'Season 3 will be too boring!' comments, D&D have an incredibly small window to aim for of 'number of book pages per season that we the book readers deem acceptable'.

#20 oierem

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 02:07 PM

Quite. It seems between the 'you're rushing it too much!' and the 'Season 3 will be too boring!' comments, D&D have an incredibly small window to aim for of 'number of book pages per season that we the book readers deem acceptable'.

"The number of book pages per season" is the worst criteria they can follow.
Most of the non-readers feel that the series is slow-moving, not rushed (each episode is packed with many storylines, which can feel like too much, but the progression of each storyline is slow).
How can you say that Jon's storyline in season 2 has been rushed? Or Dany's? Or Robb's? (most non-readers were expecting that he would die). Or Joffrey's? (all non-readers were convinced that he would die by the end of the season).