160 replies to this topic

[Monty501]

OK Let me give this a go...

Season 3

Episode 1:
(Scenes in no particular order)

Opening Scene: Attack at Fist of the first men, retreat signalled
-  Robbs Camp - Frey army leaves, Letter arrives that Lord Hoster has died, Robb, Catelyn ETC go to Riverrun
-  Arya and Friends travelling, she has wolf dream where she kills a random outlaw (no Brave companions yet)
-  Davos Stranded, sees a ship, "I serve King Stannis", "Aye so do we"
-  Tyrion recovering, Ser Bronn of the Blackwater
-  Strange letter under Sansa's pillow
-  Jon Meets Mance, Mance says they've met before, ETC.
-  Bran Rickon, Osha, Hodor travelling, being followed, glimpse figures.
- Qarth waterfront/ Arstan
- Jamie/ Brienne Banter
-  Final Scene: SEr dontos tells meets Sansa in the Godswood and tells her they will escape during the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery

Episode Two:

- Robb's Army arrives at Riverrun, we meet the new Lord Edmure, Ser Brynden Blackfish, Robb holds a war council for later
- Robb confines prioners to Riverrun dungeons, including two young squires who are nephews of Lord Twyin...
- @war council Robb plans to reconcile with Lord Walder and sends Lord roose Bolton east with command of half their army, to deal with Lannister forces there.
- Sam, Lord mormont retreating
- Meet tormund, shows Jon giants, Jon and Ygritte friendship beings to build
-  Davos speaks to Salladhor saan, filled in on he Balckwater, Davos prepares to kill Melisandre
- Tyrion contemplate why ser Mandon moore would attack him and hears of a singer visiting Shae...
- Arya and friends arrive at an inn at the Riverlands, and some men arrive....
- Bran meets the Reeds, they say they were sent from Howland Reed, who foresaw Bran needing their help. They tell Bran/ Rickon to split up, Osha and rickon leave.
-  Sansa meets the Queen of Thorns, begins to befirend margaery.
Final scene: Davos aprehended by Ser Axell Florent, who says Melisandre has forseen him trying to murder her.

Episode Three:

- Lord Karstark calls for revenge for his son(s), Robb denies it
- Karstark men kill Tully Guards and Lannister kids
- Are captured and brought before Robb, who sentences them to death
- Tyrion sends Bronn to try and find out about this singer...
- Mance Rayder sets out South, with Jon, Ygritte, Tormund, Rattleshirt, Jon doesn't like the fact he will fight the NW but goes along...
- Arya & co made to sell horses, breaks Lem's nose, Recognizes Harwin...
- Jaime and Brienne fight off some Outlaws, fight each other, get captured by Rorge, biter and a large group of outlaws calling themselves "The Brave comapanions"
- (On a ship to Pentos) Jorah convinces Dany to go to Astapor
- Sansa/ Margaery friendship, Loras to Kingsguard, plans for Sansa to marry Willas
- Final Scene: Robb Beheads Rickard Karstark, storms off and cries about it to his mother and Talisa


Episode Four

- A proper funeral for Lord Hoster, Edmure misses with arrows ETC
- Davos is in a dark cell, meets Alester florent, who tells of his surrender letter etc.
- Outlaws beat up Jaime and Brienne...
- Jon and Ygritte have sex...
- Sam Kills an Other
- Bran and Hodor and Reeds decide to go North of the wall,m and find the three eyed Crow
- Tyrion has Bronn kill Symond Silver tongue
- BoB men are taking Arya to meet their leader...
-  Final Scene: Jaime talks back to Rorge, who threatens Jaime with a sword, we see the sword coming down and hear the sound of a cut, then fade to black...


Episode Five:

- Robb & co meet with Frey envoys, who agree to forgive him if Edmure marries Roslin Frey
- Robb's war council discusses the need to march North after the wedding and retake Moat Cailin
- Arya meets Lord Beric, sees that they've captured the Hound!
- (Somewhere in The riverlands) Roose Bolton sends Ser Helman Tallhart and robett glover to Duskendale, he reiterates the fate of the North rests on their shoulders (in actuality he hasn't been commanded to do so by Robb)
- Small council meeting: Discuss Dornishmen riding through the Reach, various diplomacies, send Randall Tarly (first sight of him) North to defend Duskendale
- We find out Jaime is alive but handless, more beatings, Jaime tells Brienne of sphires etc
- Jon arrives at the first of the first men etc.
- Daenerys lesbian moment with One of her handmaids (HBO want nudity, I think they'll like this)
- Final Scene: Ser Axell Florent, brings Davos to Stannis, who forgives him, Leech scene, end with Stannis throwing the leeches into the fire saying "The Usurper... Joffrey Baratheon, The Usurper... Balon Greyjoy, The Usurper... (Long pause) Robb Stark"


Episode Six:

- Samwell, Lord Mormont arrive at Crasters Keep
-  Mance Sends Jon, Jarl, Ygritte and others South, to scale the Wall...
-  Robb Stark sets out to the Twins...
-  Battle of Duskendale, Lord Tarly kills many Northmen including Ser Helman, Robbett Glover retreats...
- Melisandre tries to convince Stannis to kill Edric Storm...
- Davos beginning to learn to read
- Lord Tywin plots to have Janos Slynt made NW lord commander
- Trial of Sandor Clegane, single combat arranged
- Jaime brought before Lord Roose Bolton, meet Qyburn, more of Jaime's wrist amputated.
- Final Scene: Sandor Kills Beric, Beric ressurected!



Episode Seven:

- Robbet glovers retreating force is attacked and slaughtered by Gregor clegane
- Journey to the twins, Catelyn warns Robb to be careful with Lord Waler Frey
- Reeds and Bran journeying North, share stories...
- Gilly giving birth...
- Davos plots to send Edric away
- Wedding preparations in Kings Landing, Lord tywin seems to be concealing something from Tyrion
- Sansa Margaery friendship continues to build
- Find out about Thoros of Myr's bringing back to life abilities
- Gendry joins BoB
- Lord Roose releases Jaime and tell him to send his regards to Lors Tywin, Jaime says likewise for Robb Stark
- Final Scene: Mutiny at crasters keep, Lord Mormonts final words


Episode 8

- Davos Reads NW Letter
- Jaime turns back to rescue Brienne!
- BoB assault outlaws (just random outlaws) to bring them justice
- Lord Beric says he will ransom Arya
- The Ghost of High Heart sees that Lord Balon Greyjoy has died!
- Sam and gilly flee Craster's keep...
- Dany arrives in Astapor, deals with Slavers
- Robb hears that Lord Balon is dead
- Robb sens Maege Mormont and Galbart glover off
- Robb names a mysterious heir...
- Final Scene: The Hound kidnaps Arya


Episode 9

- Robb's Army arrives at the Twins
- Lord Frey greets them
- Later Lord Bolton arrives
- Jon Snow prepares to climb the wall with Jarl
- Davos sends Edric away and prepares to face the King's Justice...
- Dany agrees to pay the slavers one of her Dragons
- The Hound and Arya travelling to the Twins....
- They try to sneak inside...
- The bedding of the Wedding
Final Scene: Musicians begin playing The rains of Castamere, they continue to do so throughout the coming slaughter, Greatjon kills several men, bites an ear off, is eventually brough down, Robb hit with boltons, his guard killed, he rises, Catelyn threatens Jinglebell, Roose boltob Bursts in: "Jaime Lannister Sends his Regards", Stabbs Robb, Catelyn kills Jinglebell and is killed herself, Scene ends with Lord Walder Frey laughing and the Rains of Castamere palying


Episode 10

- Edmure captured while finishing up with Roslin
- Battle in the camps at The Twins
- Sandor Kills several Freys...
- Arya runs from Sandor
- Sandor hits her in the head with and axe (we don't see which side...)
- RW Fallout in King's Landing
- Sam and Gilly saved by Coldhands...
- Jon Snow and others climbs the Wall, Jarl dies
- Dany pays with her Dragon...
Final Scene: Dany takes Meeren, Dracarys


Might do next season. I know there a several flaws, but I had to leave enough for next season with keeping RW this season and having the main endings of ASoS ening season 4. This meant several characters sitting around doing nothing for quite a while.

Edited by Monty501, 28 June 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[PatrickStormborn]

Monty501, on 28 June 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Snip.

So Dany does nothing all season, until the very end? Who does she have a lesbian scene with? Irri and Doreah, her two handmaids, are both dead. And last season Jorah told her not to buy an army; he told her to ally with Westerosi lords or they would unite against her, so why would he advise her to go to Astapor and buy an army?

Moreover, there's no plot for King's Landing in your summaries. You've cut out Sansa and Tyrion's wedding, and you haven't included the Purple Wedding.

And no way are they leaving Jon climbing the Wall until episode 10. The actor who plays Pyp has confirmed he'll be returning, meaning that Jon will encounter Pyp at Castle Black some time this season.

The Purple Wedding, the Battle at the Wall, and the taking of Yunkai all need to be in the third season.

[Sankido]

PatrickStormborn, on 28 June 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

The Purple Wedding, the Battle at the Wall, and the taking of Yunkai all need to be in the third season.

Leaving a boring fourth season...I don't think so.

[PatrickStormborn]

Sankido, on 28 June 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Leaving a boring fourth season...I don't think so.

Erm, how? Tyrion's trial, Tywin's murder, Sansa at the Vale, Stannis's arrival at the Wall, Jaime's return to King's Landing, Tommen's coronation, Tommen and Margaery's wedding, Jon becoming Lord Commander of the Night's Watch... Nothing boring about that.

And, even if that qualifies as boring, it is a much better decision to prioritise season three over a possible season four.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 28 June 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Khal-a-bunga]

PatrickStormborn, on 28 June 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Erm, how? Tyrion's trial, Tywin's murder, Sansa at the Vale, Stannis's arrival at the Wall, Jaime's return to King's Landing, Tommen's coronation, Tommen and Margaery's wedding, Jon becoming Lord Commander of the Night's Watch... Nothing boring about that.

And, even if that qualifies as boring, it is a much better decision to prioritise season three over a possible season four.

No, no it's not. What you're suggesting is that season three pack in enough material to give every arc a major climax, leaving little in the way of plot for many of these characters in the fourth season. Even if events from AFfC & ADwD are moved up (which I believe they will be, just not for many main characters, and certainly not as far as what you're suggesting would require), that leaves season four with nowhere to go, as far as having a satisfying arc for the characters.

You listed a few exciting things that I'm sure will happen in season four, but they're hardly going to carry the season on their own. I know there was plenty you left out, but still... Season four is important as from the fifth season on (or possibly only the fifth season) the show moves firmly into AFfC & ADwD territory, so you can't really justify having an awesome season three at the expense of the story as a whole.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Khal-a-bunga, on 28 June 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

No, no it's not. What you're suggesting is that season three pack in enough material to give every arc a major climax, leaving little in the way of plot for many of these characters in the fourth season. Even if events from AFfC & ADwD are moved up (which I believe they will be, just not for many main characters, and certainly not as far as what you're suggesting would require), that leaves season four with nowhere to go, as far as having a satisfying arc for the characters.

You listed a few exciting things that I'm sure will happen in season four, but they're hardly going to carry the season on their own. I know there was plenty you left out, but still... Season four is important as from the fifth season on (or possibly only the fifth season) the show moves firmly into AFfC & ADwD territory, so you can't really justify having an awesome season three at the expense of the story as a whole.

I completely disagree.  Ending at the PW wedding ends a lot of the major archs and having completed reading SOS a week ago I can tell you, the part after the PW feels like a different book even if it technically isn't.  If you don't include the PW in season 3, then there is no climax to the story in KL and for a good 1/3 of the cast as a result.  There is no way to get around the fact that in KL the whole story moves towards the PW till it happens, thus it would be silly to include all the build up with no pay off.

While I sort of get what you are driving at, the truth of the matter is that the lack of climaxes after the PW is a fault of the story that the show is just going to have to deal with.  Aside from the attempt to kill Jon (which is in no way happening before the end season 5 given where it is in ADWD) and Dany's escape on Drogon's back, there really aren't any major major climaxes like the RW and PW in either AFFC or ADWD.  In some ways the two books combined are a bit like ACOK where a bunch happens but nothing really really changes all that dramatically on the whole.

[DaveSumm]

I concede that the final episode of Season 3 will be tricky to pull off, if you put the RW in episode 9 as I would advocate. But my train of thought is this: the climax of aSoS is incredible, it HAS to close a season. Either you cram the book into a season (which we know they're not doing), or you split it. Splitting after the PW leaves Tyrion in custody for the whole season, which I don't see as workable (he's the most popular character), so I would simply accept that Season 3 will have to make do with Dracarys, Jaime saving Brienne etc and display some RW fallout. Plus throw in some invented scenes, and I don't really see it as being any less dramatic than the first season closer.

You could just as easily describe the PW as the beginning of another arc that will draw across Season 4, instead the end of the first 'arc'.

[oierem]

But without the PW there is no arc in KL.

[FSBA]

Wrong thread, reposted it in the Season 3 arc thread

Edited by FSBA, 28 June 2012 - 08:02 PM.

[Khal-a-bunga]

oierem, on 28 June 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

But without the PW there is no arc in KL.

And therein lies the biggest challenge, I think, with A Storm of Swords being split into two seasons. Inevitably, because of the narrative and dramatic structure of the book, one of the story lines is going to have to be left dangling (to a degree) going into the fourth season.

Admittedly, there isn't a whole lot going on in King's Landing prior to the Red Wedding/Purple Wedding other than the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa, but after being so heavily focused upon in both the first and second seasons, perhaps it's time to let other story lines come to the forefront for a little while. And with the increased focus on Littlefinger and Varys, and Margaery Tyrell being much more of a player in this game (and her family, at that) in the show, there shouldn't be any issues keeping the main characters in the capital involved throughout the third season, even if the focus isn't so heavy on the happenings there.

It stands to reason that both Jon and Dany will be given more prevalence in this coming season, just due to the nature of their stories in the book. We'll also have Jaime and Brienne wandering the Riverlands and eventually being taken to Harrenhal; Catelyn and Robb at Riverrun, where at least Edmure and the Blackfish will be introduced and woven into that story line; Arya traveling and meeting up with The Hound; Sam and the rest of the Night's Watch will have a decent amount to do; Stannis' story line seems to be getting beefed up considerably as compared to the novel of ASoS (likely with material from ACoK being implemented somehow); after last season we should assume we'll be seeing some of Theon and Ramsay Bolton at the Dreadfort; and finally Bran, Rickon, Osha & Hodor will meet Meera & Jojen Reed, which will provide a fair amount for them to do.

All of that without any material in King's Landing. For that reason, I can see season three spending considerably less time in the capital city than the first two seasons to allow for the aforementioned story threads to receive their proper due. That leaves the Purple Wedding for the beginning of season four, providing ample material for King's Landing during the season. Then there will be the chronologically relevant material from AFfC & ADwD for the Dorne and Iron Islands material, in addition to the remainder of the story lines for the rest of the characters.

I don't see any reason that the Purple Wedding must happen in season three, beyond those characters having a suitable arc in terms of a climax. Since ASoS is the first book that's truly being adapted with two seasons in mind (however loosely), it leaves D&D with an opportunity to change up their established format that they've set with the first and second season.

[Winter In My Heart]

I agree with everything being said about the season will feel rushed if we have three weddings in season three. And also that there wouldn't be any huge climax in season four, except maybe Tywin's death. At the same time this is one of the instances where everyone should look at it from a tv viewers prospective. Those who don't read the books I seriously doubt will continue to be faithful to a show where their favorite characters keep getting defeated and the 'bad guys' keep getting off scot free. I know Martin's world isn't really set up in a good and evil point of view but still.  The first two seasons have really been focused on the Starks and Lannisters. And they really didn't help themselves by doing very little with Jon and Dany last season. So even if people did come to root for Stannis, he was still defeated too. This would leave them going on a third year with nothing whatsoever happening to the Lannisters. I don't know about you but if I was only a tv viewer and didn't read any of the books, I wouldn't want to continue to watch a show where the Starks are all dying/are defeated, Stannis (another enemy to the 'bad guys' being defeated) and they keep managing to get off scot free. It probably could have been avoided had they beefed up Jon and Dany and perhaps even Stannis story arcs last season so people would be engaged with them as well.

So I'm more just on the fence. I would love the PW to happen in season three, but that really doesn't matter much when thinking overall how I would like the show to still continue. I don't particularly mind how they decide to do that just so long as they don't take a ton of liberties and change big things in character arcs like they did last season. I'm just thinking in terms of a person who only watches the show. They haven't gotten any sort of reprieve that the Lannisters are suffering but yet their enemies keep loosing. I just don't see how they can keep getting off scot free without anything bad happening to them. That's probably the only reason why I think the PW should be in season three. If its not.. Well the RW will be in episode nine, and come on, it's getting a bit redundant that the bad stuff keep happening in the ninth episode each season. With the PW they could put RW in episode eight and PW in episode ten. Then there's two 'holly shit' moments that no one would have otherwise expected. But yeah I don't particularly mind, I just don't think it's smart to keep having Joffrey get away with his horrible behavior and not have anything bad happening to him in terms of the show.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Iikaitlynii, on 28 June 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

I agree with everything being said about the season will feel rushed if we have three weddings in season three. And also that there wouldn't be any huge climax in season four, except maybe Tywin's death. At the same time this is one of the instances where everyone should look at it from a tv viewers prospective. Those who don't read the books I seriously doubt will continue to be faithful to a show where their favorite characters keep getting defeated and the 'bad guys' keep getting off scot free. I know Martin's world isn't really set up in a good and evil point of view but still.  The first two seasons have really been focused on the Starks and Lannisters. And they really didn't help themselves by doing very little with Jon and Dany last season. So even if people did come to root for Stannis, he was still defeated too. This would leave them going on a third year with nothing whatsoever happening to the Lannisters. I don't know about you but if I was only a tv viewer and didn't read any of the books, I wouldn't want to continue to watch a show where the Starks are all dying/are defeated, Stannis (another enemy to the 'bad guys' being defeated) and they keep managing to get off scot free. It probably could have been avoided had they beefed up Jon and Dany and perhaps even Stannis story arcs last season so people would be engaged with them as well.

So I'm more just on the fence. I would love the PW to happen in season three, but that really doesn't matter much when thinking overall how I would like the show to still continue. I don't particularly mind how they decide to do that just so long as they don't take a ton of liberties and change big things in character arcs like they did last season. I'm just thinking in terms of a person who only watches the show. They haven't gotten any sort of reprieve that the Lannisters are suffering but yet their enemies keep loosing. I just don't see how they can keep getting off scot free without anything bad happening to them. That's probably the only reason why I think the PW should be in season three. If its not.. Well the RW will be in episode nine, and come on, it's getting a bit redundant that the bad stuff keep happening in the ninth episode each season. With the PW they could put RW in episode eight and PW in episode ten. Then there's two 'holy shit' moments that no one would have otherwise expected. But yeah I don't particularly mind, I just don't think it's smart to keep having Joffrey get away with his horrible behavior and not have anything bad happening to him in terms of the show.

The crazy thing is, compared to last season, I've heard a lot less hate for the Lannister clan (well, except Joffrey, but that's to be expected). There have been a few scenes showing that both Tommen and Myrcella are nothing like their brother, and even Lancel was given a chance to be more likable during the "Blackwater" episode. I think the audience who haven't read the books don't necessarily see the show as the 'good guys versus the bad guys', and they shouldn't. Half of the non-readers I watch were rooting for Stannis, and the other half wanted the Lannisters to come out victorious. Cersei is an incredibly interesting character who is definitely more sympathetic (for the better) than her book counter-part; Jaime, despite the fact that he pushed Bran out of a window, is likewise very interesting to my non-reading friends that I watch the show with, and they're excited to see where his story with Brienne goes. Obviously everyone loves Tyrion, but what surprised me was how Tywin was developed over the course of this season. I was just as surprised as the people I watched the show with at how much I liked Tywin by the end of the season.

That isn't to say that the audience is more emotionally invested in the Lannister family than the Stark family, but I certainly think they're more intellectually engaging to the audience. I don't think D&D are worried about the audience jumping ship because the Lannisters keep coming out on top, and I don't think they should be. It's easy to under-estimate the audience, but I don't think it's quite fair. I try my best not to spoil anything for the group of non-readers I watch with, but I also find that I don't have to answer as many questions about who is who, and where is where, and what not as I thought I would have to, having read the books prior to the show coming out. It's dense, it's a bit convoluted, but it's also been presented pretty damn well (as far as the story specific to the show, that is), so the audience should already have a good idea that things are going to be a bit more complicated than the 'good guys taking out the bad guys to restore peace to Westeros'.

In that regard, I don't see how it's absolutely necessary for the Purple Wedding to occur in the same season as the Red Wedding, unless it benefits the story in the long-term view of things. I don't think it does, for reasons I've already mentioned. It basically negates any reason to split ASoS if one season is going to take the story that far along. I originally argued that the Red Wedding shouldn't even happen in the third season, as I had originally read A Storm of Swords in split paperback format. On my most recent re-read, I read the combined parts as one long novel and have since realized that that must happen this season. I don't get that same feeling with the Purple Wedding. The Red Wedding is more of an emotional climax than a plot-centered climax as it is, which is why it will likely occur in the eight episode, but not even the Purple Wedding makes up for it. Everyone knows that Joffrey will eventually die, and truth be told, it's not in that satisfying a manner. The real pay-back for the Red Wedding is the death of Tywin, and for that reason it makes more sense for me that the Purple Wedding should kick-start the story in King's Landing rather than end it.

A lot of people are giving precedence to this third season alone rather than the story as a whole. I firmly think the beginnings' and endings' of the novels are going to remain intact, regardless of what else is shuffled around (barring the next two books, which for all intent and purpose, didn't have the same sense of conclusion as any of the first three books, which is why the process of adapting this story becomes even more incredibly complex after this next season). We may see Tyrion on his way to Pentos, or something else of the like, but it'll be akin to seeing Arya leave with Yoren or Jon going beyond the Wall.

Edited by Khal-a-bunga, 28 June 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[Winter In My Heart]

Khal-a-bunga, on 28 June 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

The crazy thing is, compared to last season, I've heard a lot less hate for the Lannister clan (well, except Joffrey, but that's to be expected). There have been a few scenes showing that both Tommen and Myrcella are nothing like their brother, and even Lancel was given a chance to be more likable during the "Blackwater" episode. I think the audience who haven't read the books don't necessarily see the show as the 'good guys versus the bad guys', and they shouldn't. Half of the non-readers I watch were rooting for Stannis, and the other half wanted the Lannisters to come out victorious. Cersei is an incredibly interesting character who is definitely more sympathetic (for the better) than her book counter-part; Jaime, despite the fact that he pushed Bran out of a window, is likewise very interesting to my non-reading friends that I watch the show with, and they're excited to see where his story with Brienne goes. Obviously everyone loves Tyrion, but what surprised me was how Tywin was developed over the course of this season. I was just as surprised as the people I watched the show with at how much I liked Tywin by the end of the season.

That isn't to say that the audience is more emotionally invested in the Lannister family than the Stark family, but I certainly think they're more intellectually engaging to the audience. I don't think D&D are worried about the audience jumping ship because the Lannisters keep coming out on top, and I don't think they should be. It's easy to under-estimate the audience, but I don't think it's quite fair. I try my best not to spoil anything for the group of non-readers I watch with, but I also find that I don't have to answer as many questions about who is who, and where is where, and what not as I thought I would have to, having read the books prior to the show coming out. It's dense, it's a bit convoluted, but it's also been presented pretty damn well, so

Well I won't really comment much on this. All I'll say it I expect that everyone loves Tyrion, that's just pretty much a given. Just as much as Myrcella and Tommen being nothing like their brother. They just act nothing like him. I do hate the fact they make Tywin so much more sympathetic in the show than he really is because that's just stupid in my opinion. It makes it seem like their trying to get people to like the Lannisters. I have no personal quarrels with Lancel but I just don't think he's a big or important character. I'm not saying a ton of people will jump ship if the Lannisters keep coming up on top, I'm just saying its possible people will start to. I mean this would be a third year nothing bad happens to them, which by any show term is just ridiculous. I know this isn't like any old show but still that's just something to keep in mind as far as audience goes. And besides that, I think Martin did the whole Robb/Joffrey/Tywin death in the same book for a reason. Obviously I don't expect them all three to die in season three since that would leave pretty much nothing for season four, all I'm saying is that it would sort of be ridiculous by show terms if Joffrey doesn't die this next season. Especially if they do a ton of build up to the PW and then there is no PW. I think it would leave people disappointed to see so much build up, probably the Tyrell's plotting and such, and then nothing comes out of it. I could just see that being more disappointing rather than 'Oh now I really wanna see season four to know what happens!'. Plus like I said about the whole redundant episode nine something bad always happens thing. That's probably the biggest reason I would prefer the PW in season three. But yeah I wouldn't particularly mind if they didn't do PW next season, I just think it could possibly be a stupid call.

I certainly can't say nothing as far as your tv viewing only friends go but I've read a lot of other people have to explain a lot of things to their friends who only watch the show. So I guess it just depends on the person and how well they pay attention to the show or if the show explained something well enough. I think the audience would be smart. But who really has the patience to wait four years for something bad to happen to the family that's made out to be the bad guys? I don't know about you but many people in this world are not very patient people. I know this is tv but still, people lack patience in this world nowadays.

[Frost_Nocturne]

Putting the PW in the finale is the only reasonable place for it. As many have argued, without it there is no arc for KL (which has been the primary location of the show thus far) or for the multitude of central characters there. Joffrey and Margaery's betrothal has already been announced within the show in the S2 finale. To put it off not just for 10 episodes, but an entire season, with two years of waiting in between for non-readers, is ridiculous. The entire focus of KL in the first half of SoS is the build up to the PW: Sansa's notable meeting with Marg and the QoT, inevitable new scenes showing the Tyrell's scheming, Dontos' promise to help Sansa escape, Cersei and Tywin's preparations, Joffrey and Tyrion's increasing antagonism to each other, ect. Most importantly, Joffrey is the final death from Stannis' leeches. All three deaths, starting with Balon's and ending with the PW, need to be in S3. I suspect much of Stannis' storyline next season will revolve around Davos and Mel's attempts to persuade Stannis for or against using the blood of Edric (or even Shireen...), with next season centering around his decision to head north and interaction with the NW/Wildlings.

Perhaps even more important for the show's continuation is *finally* giving the audience the satisfaction of seeing a hated character get what they deserve, Joffrey no less, which also is the first major loss the Lannisters will have had. As previous posters have argued, after the RW the PW will give some catharsis, which wouldn't have the same effect if viewers had to wait another year to see it. Personally, after reading the RW for the first time, the hope that kept me going was something I kept promising to myself, "Joffrey must die. Soon." Otherwise the leeches would feel like a cheat. The PW chapter is one of my favorite of the books, especially after all the crap Joffrey goes on about after the RW about how they'll need to replace the wolf on his goblet with the squid, ect. If S3 ended with Joffrey still existing (and still waiting for his wedding, when Tyrion and Sansa's had like 3 chapters between the announcement and the ceremony) but not Robb after the leeches, alot of people will be understandably pissed.

Let's look at the major deaths we'll have in S3, in chronological order:
LC Mormont
Robb
Catelyn
Ygritte
Joffrey

Now, if you push back the PW, the four major deaths we get are of uniformly sympathetic, arguably popular characters, with no satisfying major deaths happening the entire season. Deaths you grin at or fist pump to. Not a great idea. Next season is going to be bleak enough as it is (a trademark of the series, but it's what makes the rarer moments of righteous justice all the more satisfying... e.g. Joffrey's fateful feast).
As far as people countering with the argument that Tyrion won't have enough to do in S4 if the PW ends S3, if you push it back to S4E1, Tyrion's screentime is going to be an issue anyway. Same with Arya. They're going to have to be comfortable leaving these characters off screen for multiple episodes, or create new content. Both will likely occur. One or two episodes won't make a real difference. Why not actually give the finale a proper climax that affects multiple major characters, something the finales of both season 1 and 2 have essentially failed to do.

I also agree with those advocating against having a major event in episode 9, to keep the show from becoming predictable. Which is why the RW in ep. 8 and the PW in ep. 10, with an episode in between to build even more despair and hatred of the Lannisters before the PW, is imo the best option. It should be noted that there are several subtle signs that point to the RW being in ep. 8 next season as it is. Ep. 7's title of Autumn Storms presumably refers to the bleak weather over Westeros that precedes the RW and that Arya/Sandor travel to the Twins in. D&D have stated their eagerness to get to the RW from the start, that it was in fact the prime catalyst that convinced them to try creating the show. We now know that D&D will be directing at least one episode this season. One guess as to what it will cover... Finally, we know that episodes 9 and 10 will not be directed by D&D. Everything points to ep. 8.

Edited by Frost_Nocturne, 29 June 2012 - 01:28 AM.

[DaveSumm]

I see quite a lot of love from non-book readers for Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin, Tommen, Myrcella and to a lesser extent Cersei. I see lot of hate for: Joffrey. That's it. TV viewers don't hate the Lannisters, they hate Joffrey. I really don't think they're the 'bad guys' of the show. And even if they were, I would argue that the Lannisters are in a stronger position after Joffrey's death. Tommen is far more malleable, so in the period between Joffrey and Tywin's death the realm is essentially Tywin's, without the unpredictable errors of Joffrey.

And I still don't buy that people will stop watching after the RW. Can anyone think of another example of a show that ended negatively and lost viewers?

[Javi Marcos]

One season
3 leeches
3 kings die.
Absolutely perfect.

¿Season 4? That's not our problem right now. Just make S3 of GoT best season ever.
.
.
.
.
.

Well, if you insist, let's talk a bit about S4

In Season 4 we'll have the last 200 pages of ASOS, with a lot of things  in 9 chapters
,
- KL: Oberyn arrives,maybe change Ellaria for Arianne, exposition about Dorne (Myrcella should be queen by Dornish law, etc),+Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne+ trial (Tyrions VS Varys, Shae, knights...the full court)+Jaime's exposition about Selmy/Kingsguard/+ Oberyn VS The Mountain +Tommen's wedding/coronation+ Tywin's/Shae death+ Tyrion escapes. I can see 9 chapters of KL perfectly.

- Arya rides with the Hound, wargs Nymeria, kills Polliver/battle in the Inn , escene with Hound diying, goes to Saltpans and leaves (she will appear in 5 chapters/9)

- Sansa: chat with LF about who killed Joffrey and why, goes to the Vale, wedding Lisa-LF, info about the the Eyrie, snow castle + kiss + abuse of LF, Moon Gate. 6 chapters.

- The Wall: "The Wall is yours", first battle VS Mance/ giants, 2nd battle (with Stannis), Meeting with Stannis, politics, Jon LC. Lots of work for CGI. 8 chapters

- Bran: form Nightfort to Bloodraven (4 chapters is enough)

And we'll add a bit of AFFC/ADWD
-Kingsmoot for sure 4 episodes at least,
-maybe Reek (I-III) +
-Brienne of AFFC, maybe even his whole arc of AFFC: chapter 4 Jaime gives her Oathkeeper, chapter 5 meets Pod, chapter 6 battle with Brave Companions, chapter 8 Quiet Island (with the Hound disguised), chapter 9 battle in the Inn Vs Rorge, Biter,

And then, the key: Season 4, Episode 10 will have the 1st chapter of ADWD/AFFC of  a few characters:

- Tyrion in Pentos: he's told that he is going to meet Dany
- Euron command's Victarion to bring Dany.
-Arya arrives in an Assasin's house
- Sam (loved after his political business in earlier episodes) is going to Oldtown
- Cersei in the Iron Throne, Queen Regent.
- Arianne, if she was introduced previously, thinks about making Myrcella queen
- Jaime is going to conquer Riverlands
- Brienne and Stoneheart

Edited by Javi Marcos, 29 June 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[Winter In My Heart]

DaveSumm, on 29 June 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

I see quite a lot of love from non-book readers for Tyrion, Jaime, Tywin, Tommen, Myrcella and to a lesser extent Cersei. I see lot of hate for: Joffrey. That's it. TV viewers don't hate the Lannisters, they hate Joffrey. I really don't think they're the 'bad guys' of the show. And even if they were, I would argue that the Lannisters are in a stronger position after Joffrey's death. Tommen is far more malleable, so in the period between Joffrey and Tywin's death the realm is essentially Tywin's, without the unpredictable errors of Joffrey.

And I still don't buy that people will stop watching after the RW. Can anyone think of another example of a show that ended negatively and lost viewers?

I'll bet you anything a lot of people like Tywin because they have been depicting him as 'harsh but fair'. Seeing as that's not really how he is in the books... It seems like the shows trying to make him sympathetic which is rather stupid imo. We already have Jamie and Tyrion and Myrcella and Tommen why do they have to make the 'eviler' characters of the family; Cercei and Tywin more sympathetic? They're doing the same with Cercei in a sense too it seems to me. They don't come off as sympathetic in the books and we already have likable Lannister characters... There's a reason even Tywin's kids fear him to an extent.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Javi Marcos, on 29 June 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

One season
3 leeches
3 kings die.
Absolutely perfect.

¿Season 4? That's not our problem right now. Just make S3 of GoT best season ever.

Add in 3 Marriages and you get the theme of the season But I think that's the most important thing to remember, season 2 has by many viewers been regarded as slow, so you better get some things happening, there is enough excitement happening afterwards.

I'm asking myself what they will do with Winterfell though, they need to show it (viewers will demand it), but it will be a flashback? Do they keep Theon? The rest of the season seems pretty clearly laid out to me and we do already have a few puzzle parts (character names in the casting calls) to put together a good picture. I guess the main constraint will be the screentime alloted to each character.

[oierem]

Frost_Nocturne, on 29 June 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Putting the PW in the finale is the only reasonable place for it. As many have argued, without it there is no arc for KL (which has been the primary location of the show thus far) or for the multitude of central characters there. Joffrey and Margaery's betrothal has already been announced within the show in the S2 finale. To put it off not just for 10 episodes, but an entire season, with two years of waiting in between for non-readers, is ridiculous.

I agree with all your post 100%, but this is one of the key aspects: you cannot delay a wedding that has been announced for TWO seasons/years!

[PatrickStormborn]

oierem, on 29 June 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

I agree with all your post 100%, but this is one of the key aspects: you cannot delay a wedding that has been announced for TWO seasons/years!

Exactly. The reason they pushed back Sansa's plotting with Dontos was because plotting an escape for two seasons would be ridiculous. So why would they announce the wedding in season two and then push it back to season four?

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 29 June 2012 - 10:28 AM.