384 replies to this topic

[Faint]

Not much a fan of men who beat their wives but maybe that's just me.

[Lady Lea]

lol I don't care if he was "true steel". He could be the "true diamond" and still be a sorry excuse for a man, a terrible ruler, a drunk, a terrible husband and father, a bad person.

[Master of Laws]

I'm pretty sure the main reason people don't like Robert was because he sucked as a king and a father.

[TerraPrime]

StannisBamfatheon, on 19 June 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Robert had his faults absolutely, but the good act shouldn't wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.  And he doesn't get enough credit for being the great knight that he was.

Hmm.... no.

Robert is a terrible king and ruler. He was a good soldier, an excellent buddy, and a top-rate friend to go bar-crawl with. But he's an abysmal ruler. He used the public coffer to finance tourneys, instead of investing in infrastructures. He abdicates his responsibilities whenever he can and let the small council run things. He has no backbones to do the right thing as a ruler because he dislikes being unpopular. He sent out assassins to kill 13 year-old girls. Robert is one of the worst types of rulers there are - relying on his charisma and charm and pricing being liked more than being responsible. Robert would have been a great general, but he should have never been made a king.

[bloodymime]

PatrickStormborn, on 19 June 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

He bankrupted the realm, raped and beat his wife, neglected his children, and almost killed his infant "son". He usurped the throne of his liege lord because """his woman""" had been """taken""" by another man, and yet spent many nights in brothels seemingly worry-free while he thought Lyanna was being raped. He then ordered the assassination of a pregnant fourteen year old girl, which actually gave Drogo the incentive to go to war, rather than stopping it.

I couldn't really care less about Rhaegar; Robert has done enough to warrant being hated.

I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure what I would do if a little boy came up to show me the unborn kittens he cut out of a cat but I can see myself being freaked out enough to hit him.

Though now that I've written that I'm thinking you can't be talking about this because you say infant.

Edited by bloodymime, 19 June 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[Lady Lea]

StannisBamfatheon, on 19 June 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Robert had his faults absolutely, but the good act shouldn't wash out the bad, nor the bad the good.  And he doesn't get enough credit for being the great knight that he was.

Hmm how much credit should we give him for being a knight? Even the Mountain is a knight. I think that shows just how much being a "knight" is worth. You don't need to be a good person, you just need to know how to kill. Robert was great at killing people with a big-ass hammer. Good for him. Unfortunately he was terrible at being a half-way decent human being.

[PatrickStormborn]

bloodymime, on 19 June 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure what I would do if a little boy came up to show me the unborn kittens he cut out of a cat but I can see myself being freaked out enough to hit him.

Though now that I've written that I'm thinking you can't be talking about this because you say infant.

Infant was probably the wrong word -- I don't remember how old Joffrey was at the time. And yes, it was the same incident. Joffrey may have been vile, but he did it to impress Robert because, you know, Robert was a lousy father who encouraged violence and neglected his children. And how does he punish Joffrey? With violence. Great work, Robert!!!!!! Punishing someone for violence ... with violence ... is never a good idea.

He hit Joffrey so hard that Cersei thought he was dead. That ... is not a good thing. At all.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 19 June 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[bloodymime]

PatrickStormborn, on 19 June 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Infant was probably the wrong word -- I don't remember how old Joffrey was at the time. And yes, it was the same incident. Joffrey may have been vile, but he did it to impress Robert because, you know, Robert was a lousy father who encouraged violence and neglected his children. And how does he punish Joffrey? With violence. Great work, Robert!!!!!! Punishing someone for violence ... with violence ... is never a good idea.

He hit Joffrey so hard that Cersei thought he was dead. That ... is not a good thing. At all.

It actually says he was told the cat was going to have kittens and he cut her open to see if it was true. Only then did he take them to Robert.

Yes, I understand how people believe violence is a horrible thing these days. I'm not one of them and I can kind of see myself doing the same as Robert. That's freaky shit no matter the reason Joffrey had for doing it.

[Lady Lea]

Yeah about the puppy thing, shit, I would have been horrified, but Robert at least should have explained to Joffrey why what he did was really bad. I mean, he was a little psycho, but he knew his father was a hunter so maybe the distinction between killing a boar for fun and killing a cat for fun would have been lost on him.

[PatrickStormborn]

bloodymime, on 19 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

It actually says he was told the cat was going to have kittens and he cut her open to see if it was true. Only then did he take them to Robert.

Yes, I understand how people believe violence is a horrible thing these days. I'm not one of them and I can kind of see myself doing the same as Robert. That's freaky shit no matter the reason Joffrey had for doing it.

You don't believe violence is a horrible thing, and yet you think what Joffrey did was horrible? Ok.

Joffrey was a monster, and what he did was horrible. But he was a CHILD, meaning that Robert's response was worse because of the impact it would have on Joffrey's future.

And I'll repeat myself here: punishing a child with violence for being violent is really stupid.

[Lord Ben]

I think Robert himself summed up Robert pretty well, he was meant to sit on a horse not a throne.  He would have been happier as a hedge knight riding around, etc.

As fractured as the Realm was though even the shitty King Robert held it together and it didn't fracture until after his death.  Everyone who was waiting in the wings to pull their schemes didn't dare while he was alive (at least not in large numbers).

Robert the man I have pity for, seems like he didn't enjoy being King much, but he was probably decent to be around if you weren't his wife or your sister wasn't pretty.  A good "buddy" to have.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Hah....well, the Robert haters are out in force.  I expected this too be a fiery topic but now I kinda look like a troll.  Not my intention.  The only criticisms I would say are maybe a little overblown are the drunkenness and obesity.  Wyman Manderly is super duper fat, like day time TV fork lifted out of his house fat yet he's shaping up to be pretty cool.  I would say weight is irrelevant.  And as far as the drunkenness goes it may not suit a king, but ive known some great drunks in my day and there always good for some revelry.

Robert is by no means my favorite character, not even top 25.  His brother eclipses him immensely.  But i reflect sometimes that his accomplishments and persona before the iron throne are largely forgotten due to his later years.
  Hell even during it he manages to crush balon greyjoy, a man I think everyone thinks less of than Robert.  Perhaps rob and his war hammer would have been better served in a randyll tarly like role a great lord and military commander and not king.

[King of Grumpkins]

i liked him because he enjoyed seeing Lannisters uncomfortable and unhappy

[Jem]

I like Robert. I'm just glad he is not my husband. Or father. Or king. Or, in fact, anyone I know at all. But still, I do like him.

[bloodymime]

StannisBamfatheon, on 19 June 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Hah....well, the Robert haters are out in force.  I expected this too be a fiery topic but now I kinda look like a troll.  Not my intention.  The only criticisms I would say are maybe a little overblown are the drunkenness and obesity.  Wyman Manderly is super duper fat, like day time TV fork lifted out of his house fat yet he's shaping up to be pretty cool.  I would say weight is irrelevant.  And as far as the drunkenness goes it may not suit a king, but ive known some great drunks in my day and there always good for some revelry.

Robert is by no means my favorite character, not even top 25.  His brother eclipses him immensely.  But i reflect sometimes that his accomplishments and persona before the iron throne are largely forgotten due to his later years.
  Hell even during it he manages to crush balon greyjoy, a man I think everyone thinks less of than Robert.  Perhaps rob and his war hammer would have been better served in a randyll tarly like role a great lord and military commander and not king.

It's a good topic and the fact is we're all willing to overlook a lot of things in people we like. It's just not many people happen to like Robert so you're not going to hear a lot of excuses for him or how he gets to have his 'redemption arc' because he's well dead.

Robert has his flaws like just about every other character in these books. What I liked about him was he knew what he was and that he was fucked up. I appreciate honesty, I may not always be a good person but I try to be straight about it and I appreciate that quality in Robert despite the fact even if he weren't a woman beater I'd still find him incredibly loud and annoying.


And while this is pretty irrelevant he's not obese. Despite the fact that it says he put on eight stone in the first scene we see him in he's spry enough to vault from his horse and later goes on a hell run with Ned.

Edited by bloodymime, 19 June 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

He wasn't the best, but I quite enjoyed his character. I feel the Robert hate is sometimes a bit unfair. He was definitely a 'grey' character, IMO.

[Kittykatknits]

What everyone else said. He was a drunk, a glutton, a horrible friend, a womanizer, cheated on his wife, a man who ignored his children and his "children". He beat his and raped his wife. He bankrupted the realm. He ignored his duty as king. He claimed to love Lyanna but spent quite a bit of time visiting brothels while she was being "raped".

Other than that, he was a great guy.

[Helgar]

The reason people dislike Robert is because other people dislike Rhaegar. It is a well-known fact of human nature that if you paint one stone green and another yellow, people will form groups over which stone looks better and argue about it. The people who like the green stone will dislike the yellow stone on principle, and the people who like the yellow stone will dislike the green stone on principle.

You have to keep in mind that when we are introduced to the whole Robert vs Rhaegar thing, we have very limited information on what actually happened. We have Ned's and Robert's point of view and Dany's and Viserys's point of view. Some people will pay more heed to Ned's and Robert's point of view and, feeling sympathy for Robert's intense emotions towards Lyanna, will dislike Rhaegar for taking her. Others will trust in Dany and Viserys, and sympathize with, well... Dany, mostly... for losing everything during the War of the Usurper. Those people will eventually, when the hints are there (or when they come to this site, lol) believe that the tale of Rhaegar and Lyanna was a tragic story of romance that ended badly. They will dislike Robert for all the harm he caused to the Targaryens.

The point is that both points-of-view are true.

However, when we learn more about the story, we start to use more sophisticated arguments to back our opinions. Sine R+L is largely prevalent among the fans, Robert's supporters will (usually) not say that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. Instead, they will say that he inconsiderately seduced and lured a 14-year old girl away, and turned 4 of the seven great Houses against the Throne, with catastrophic consequences for Westeros. Rhaegar's supporters on the other hand have ample arguments to use against Robert, most of which have already been posted in this thread. Robert's supporters eventually evolve into the people who hate Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's supporters eventually evolve into the people who believe in R+L=J, and hate Robert.

The point is that neither group ever actually manages to convince the other that their stone looks better.

Robert turned out to be a lousy king, a lousy husband and a lousy father, but those are not the reasons why people dislike him. Because, as a king, his lousiness concerns the financial field only, and people aren't reading aSoIaF for the economics of Westeros. As a husband, people dislike Cersei more than they dislike Robert - when he slapped her at GoT, for instance, I did not cry "wife-beater", I said, "about time someone did that". And as a father, the only child that makes a big impression on us at first is Joffrey, and Joffrey is even worse than his mother, so again people hate him more than they hate Robert.

The point is that those are initially logical arguments to convince the other group that our stone looks better and not the real reasons why we dislike these stones.

[StannisBamfatheon]

As far as evil deeds of westeros go drinking and whoring are pretty low on the list...he's vilified rather unfairly.  Jaime tried to murder bran yet people love him.  Whaaaaat gives.  I mean "breast plate stretcher" alone makes him not completely worthless.  All I'm saying is people had to see something in him I'm order to support him and help overthrow a dynasty that lasted 300 years.

[StannisBamfatheon]

It seems like the consensus is cersei is way less corrupt and villainous than Robert?  Patently ridiculous.