363 replies to this topic

[Winter's Knight]

Because the previous thread overflowed in mid-discussion, we're going to continue here.
I came across the following quote in a blog on rape culture:

Quote

Here, too, is a common narrative of the rape culture: If someone is a "good person," he can't possibly be a rapist. (And the corollary: If someone is a rapist, then he will show no evidence of being a "good person.") Humans, even rapists, are complex entities. A rapist is capable of doing good things for some people, while doing grave harm to others.

It seemed , to me, to sum up Tyrion rather well.

Sidenote:
Lets try and talk about the Tyrion/Sansa marriage without drawing blood this time, yes? And try to not insult people who dislike one of your favourite characters please?

[Kittykatknits]

Thanks Winter's Knight, for continuing this thread. I'm copying my last post from the previous thread over here to get the discussion started.

This was my response to a post by Lummel:

Quote

'll do my best but not sure how much sense I'll make as I'm not even sure that I agree with myself. I've been thinking quite a bit on what is needed to place Tyrion on a more positive path compared to where he is right now. I'd like to see him become closer to the Tyrion we saw back in GOT, but I doubt that is possible. So, I want to know what is possible based upon what we've seen.

After the end of Storm, it was pretty apparent to me that Tyrion was going to an even darker place than we had previously seen him. Even though there seem to be lots of disagreement on Tyrion's treatment on women, there does seem to be a general consensus that he doesn't have healthy relationships with women. We saw him interact with Catelyn back in GOT but that was when I think he was in a healthier frame of mind. The next woman that he interacts with that approaches an equal relationship is his sister, who he later states he wants to rape and kill. I'm not going to argue whether he meant those thoughts or not. Then we have Dance, where his first interaction is with a slave. It's possible that he raped her although we don't see that on screen. At the minimum, he abused and scared her. But, going back to your post, he was in the position of power when it came to the two of them. The next woman that he meets is Septa Lemore. She's smart, confident, comfortable in her skin, and attractive. They have some good conversation and it's obvious that he thinks she is sexually desirable. But, what I took from their interaction is that he valued that aspect of her more than the rest. So, I wondered why that is and your post provided a potential answer for me.

After this, he meets the slave prostitute and Penny but Septa Lemore is different. She is not dependent upon him the way they are. In Dance, we see Tyrion at his lowest point and I wonder if his time with Septa Lemore can provide us any clues on how he will be with Dany. I know it is a common belief that Tyrion will become Dany's Hand. That's quite possible but I'm not sure. He's a Lannister, brother to the man who killed her father, and a known kinslayer and kingslayer. If I were Dany, I would not be inclined to trust him. Dany is young and beautiful and will be in a position of absolute power over him. I'm very curious how Tyrion will react to that as it would be a complete reversal for Tyrion. Septa Lemore, to me, comes the closest we have to providing insight on how Tyrion will respond to her.

To go back to my first paragraph, for Tyrion to "redeem" himself, I think he needs to make positive changes in his relationships with women and change what power does to him. As I see it, power is a corrupting force for Tyrion. When it comes to women, for me to say that Tyrion has moved forward, he needs to reevaluate his relationships with Sansa and Cersei, come to terms with what happened to Tysha, and realize that he murdered Shae when he should not have. For Sansa, I do want to see him offer an annulment. I do not expect a true reconciliation between him and Cersei, that doesn't strike me as possible, when I consider where Cersei is as a character as well. But, he needs to stop wishing to rape and kill her. Whether he means that or not is irrelevant, it's not a healthy thought to have towards someone, let alone a sibling.

Taking this a step forward, there are multiple ways for a person to achieve happiness and satisfaction in life. Yes, marriage with someone who loves you is one of those ways. I think Tyrion was looking for that from Sansa, which was delusional of him. She will never give that to him, they are not a good match. Tysha 2.0 is not realistic, it is an ideal. No woman can meet that. So, Tyrion needs to realize that there are other ways to achieve happiness or feel peace within himself. Maybe that as a dragon rider, as Dany's Hand, or maybe it means working with Jon at the NW. I don't know. But, he needs to figure out, for himself, what will bring him the happiness and sense of belonging that he seems to want. That may not be with marriage.

So, as I said, no idea if this make sense or even if I agree with all of it. But, it's where my current thoughts are at.

[l3ol3o]

Thanks for starting V2 of this thread. Tyrion Lannister is one of the most complex characters and very divisive to the community.

Continuing from V1:

Gaius Martell, on 19 June 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Obviously his "good" actions were merely illusions of good things to begin with, and he deserved all the blame he gets.  Tyrion Lannister is a monster and the main villain of the series.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Sure Tyrion has done some bad things just like ever other character in the series. Killing the singer out of jealousy was one of these but I don't think his good actions were illusions at all. I really think they were good actions he did. He was kind to Jon. He build Bran a saddle so he could ride his horse. He protected Sansa. The list goes on.

I don't even know if your serious about that last part. Tyrion is the main villain? That must be a joke. What about Ramsey Bolton? What about Joffrey? What about Theon Greyjoy? What about Vargo Hoat? What about the Mountain? Out of all the characters in the series Tyrion Lannister is the main villain?!? Please explain how what Tyrion does is worse then those listed above.

Hes also a monster? If he is I'm just not seeing it. I would love for someone to give me some examples of Tyrion behaving like a monster.

Edited by l3ol3o, 19 June 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

l3ol3o, on 19 June 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Thanks for starting V2 of this thread. Tyrion Lannister is one of the most complex characters and very divisive to the community.

Continuing from V1:



I couldn't disagree with you more. Sure Tyrion has done some bad things just like ever other character in the series. Killing the singer out of jealousy was one of these but I don't think his good actions were illusions at all. I really think they were good actions he did. He was kind to Jon. He build Bran a saddle so he could ride his horse. He protected Sansa. The list goes on.

I don't even know if your serious about that last part. Tyrion is the main villain? That must be a joke. What about Ramsey Bolton? What about Joffrey? What about Theon Greyjoy? What about Vargo Hoat? What about the Mountain? Out of all the characters in the series Tyrion Lannister is the main villain?!? Please explain how what Tyrion does is worse then those listed above.

Hes also a monster? If he is I'm just not seeing it. I would love for someone to give me some examples of Tyrion behaving like a monster.

Gaius Martell was being sarcastic, I think.

[Gaius Martell]

Kittykatknits, on 19 June 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Gaius Martell was being sarcastic, I think.

He was, judging by the stance he took in his other posts.

[LordBloodraven]

Winter, on 19 June 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Sidenote:
Lets try and talk about the Tyrion/Sansa marriage without drawing blood this time, yes? And try to not insult people who dislike one of your favourite characters please?

Off-topic but this kind of assumption is in no way true for all those that defend objectively Tyrion's position nor useful for the discussion. Let's not start off on the wrong foot.

I agree with the quote on the rapists but summing Tyrion as a rapist is unfair, and some might argue not true. Again, it seems that in the Free Cities, only in Braavos one would find freeborn prostitutes.  Volantis is an esclavagist society and it's hard to have a consensual relation with a slave-prostitute, particularly if one is an ugly noseless dwarf. It's fucked up all the same but that is to be considered, I think

[l3ol3o]

Gaius Martell, on 19 June 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

He was, judging by the stance he took in his other posts.

LOL sorry. I figured you weren't serious but some of the posters in the other thread really do think Tyrion is a monster and act as if he is the main villain.

I would still like to know from those who think that Tyrion is a monster, how exactly is he a monster?

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

This discussion will always descend into the sort of thing that doesn't seem to be welcome on this forum - Tyrion can only be judged by people's own moral compass. The status of slave prostitutes within the story is something that by nature everybody will take on their own terms. Therefore whether Tyrion is a monster or not (as this seems to be what a lot of people in the first thread based it on) will always, always be an unswayable personal judgement for the reader to make.

All I'll say is that in my opinion Tyrion knew he was doing the wrong thing, but didn't believe he was raping.

[l3ol3o]

It seems in the other thread that many people thought Tyrion a rapist. Most seemed to think this because he had sex with slave prostitutes while in the East in ADWD.

By todays standards Tyrion would be a rapist of course.

ASOIAF isn't todays standards though and Tyrion lives in the world of ASOIAF, not the real world.

Slavery is a normally practice in most of the eastern cities. The vast majority of brothels are filled with slaves. Every man who ever visited a brothel in the East by todays standards would be considered rapists. Seeing as how popular brothels are in the ASOIAF world, that would mean that almost every man is a rapist.

In the East having sex with a slave prostitute isn't rape. It isn't even a crime and it's perfectly normal and acceptable in the Eastern culture of ASOIAF. Tyrion cannot be called a rapist because of this.

I don't recall Tyrion ever forcing himself on a woman in the series. If he did please enlighten me.

[Gaius Martell]

I really want to know who Tyrion raped.

Tysha?  No; he was sexually abused by Twyin in this case.

Shae? Not to my knowledge, no.

Sansa? Nope.  Nothing here.

Cersei? He says he wants to, but he says/ thinks a lot of things that he doesn't mean, so this isn't a great point.

The whores in Westeros? Payment for services rendered.  Nope.  Free market at work.

The whore in Volantis?  This is probably where you're going, but this is not a rape.  It's an exchange with a slave owner, so yes, he's participating in a slave economy, which should be abhorred, but the market trade was made.  Because she is frightened by his "monstrous looks" (which is what the word "monster" is used for in this sense), you call him a rapist.  Well, to that I say "no."  Considering we are talking about a slave system, where slaves are property, the desires of the slaves are subject to their masters, no more, no less.  It's not a pretty thing, nor is it good that he even went to that brothel, but it is not rape, but being an accessory to human trafficking, that is Tyrion's crime here.

[jarl the climber]

If Tyrion had been forced to commit homosexual acts for the amusement of his owner or his owner had gotten payed for it during the breif time he was a slave would you consider that to be rape?

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

jarl the climber, on 19 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

If Tyrion had been forced to commit homosexual acts for the amusement of his owner or his owner had gotten payed for it during the breif time he was a slave would you consider that to be rape?

Depends on who the homosexual acts are with.

If the other person has signed up for pleasure, yes.

If the other person is also being forced, no. But it's still just around as bad as rape.

[Gaius Martell]

jarl the climber, on 19 June 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

If Tyrion had been forced to commit homosexual acts for the amusement of his owner or his owner had gotten payed for it during the breif time he was a slave would you consider that to be rape?

What I consider rape and what is considered rape in that culture are two different things.  This would not be considered a rape in that culture.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

Gaius Martell, on 19 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

What I consider rape and what is considered rape in that culture are two different things.  This would not be considered a rape in that culture.

I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I'm not aware of the reader ever being told that this isn't rape?

We know that it is considered acceptable, but we don't know it isn't rape.

Rape is often considered as good as acceptable in Westerosi culture.

[l3ol3o]

Gaius Martell, on 19 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

What I consider rape and what is considered rape in that culture are two different things.  This would not be considered a rape in that culture.

You hit the nail on the head. People are using modern laws to condone Tyrion for actions when what he did in ASOIAF world was perfectly normal and legal.

[Kittykatknits]

l3ol3o, on 19 June 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

LOL sorry. I figured you weren't serious but some of the posters in the other thread really do think Tyrion is a monster and act as if he is the main villain.

I would still like to know from those who think that Tyrion is a monster, how exactly is he a monster?

I don't think he is a monster nor do I think he is the main villian in the story. I don't think there are any villians, at least none that we have met yet. I once said in another thread that Ramsey Bolton probably loved his mother and really seemed to care about his dogs.

There is a quote from Martin that I think is very insightful:
Even the villains... Certainly I have my favourites. Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others.
http://www.sfsite.com/01a/gm95.htm

Tyrion is not evil but he's not a good person either. There are no good people in the books, just people who have done good acts and bad acts. He's done some good things, his advice to Jon and the saddle for Bran are examples of it. His help for Jorah is pretty amazing, considering the guy kidnapped him, chained him up, and beat him. But, he's also committed murder and done other completely horrible things. There are also times that I've pitied him, I said in the previous thread that the scene between him and Jaime remains one of the most powerful in the series for me.

I freely admit to getting frustrated when I see every action of his being excused. He's a murderer, I believed he committed rape. That doesn't mean I can't admire him for stopping Sansa's beating or love the scene at the beginning of Clash between him and his niece/nephew. It much for a much more complex and powerful figure IMHO.

I believe that Tyrion has gone done a very dark path. I also believe that he may be turning in to a vilian, as much as this series has villians. But if you look at my earlier post in this thread, you will also see that my hope for him is that he is able to rebuild himself and move towards a more positive place. I just have serious doubts that is possible at this point.

[jarl the climber]

Gaius Martell, on 19 June 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

What I consider rape and what is considered rape in that culture are two different things.  This would not be considered a rape in that culture.

Maybe the better question to have asked is what Tyrion would have considered it.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

jarl the climber, on 19 June 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Maybe the better question to have asked is what Tyrion would have considered it.

This.

"Rape" never crosses his mind, but the idea that it is wrong settles in immediately.

[l3ol3o]

The Manhood-Eating Goat, on 19 June 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I'm not aware of the reader ever being told that this isn't rape?

We know that it is considered acceptable, but we don't know it isn't rape.

Rape is often considered as good as acceptable in Westerosi culture.

Rape is illegal in Westeros. You see rapists getting sent to the wall and rapists getting gelded.

Rape is also illegal in the East as far as I know. Here is the thing. Slavery is OK in the East and most of the whores are slaves. If you have sex with a whore in the East you are most likely having sex with a slave. This is not rape in the East. Going to your neighbors house and forcing yourself on his wife is rape. Forcefully having sex with a slave prostitute in the east is also rape. Paying the brothel owner to have sex with that same slave is not rape in the East.

There are plenty of rape throughout this series. Almost all are associated with war though.

Tyrion never forces himself on a woman in this series.

[Gaius Martell]

jarl the climber, on 19 June 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Maybe the better question to have asked is what Tyrion would have considered it.

Then maybe this scene should happen and we'll see if he reflects on his time in Volantis.