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Maggy the Frog, theory about her prophecy


leo0274

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  • 4 months later...

I have been thinking about this prophecy today while I am rereading aFFC.

There is much to say on whether or not the prophecy is literal or figurative. Obviously, it is both. Yes, MTF answers the first two questions in a literal sense. She also answers the third much in the same way, but the prophecy does not make sense if it is taken literally. Cersei cannot die by both her tears and by choking; that is to say, she cannot literally die twice. That being said, you can drown without dying -- but without proper first-aid and medical techniques we have today, I don't think that it is likely for one who drowns to survive. Therefore, we must take one or both of these events to be figurative only. "Drowning in tears" is a metaphor that people have heard used in our language today, usually an expression for someone who is overwrought with grief. "Choking the life [out of you]" could be literal, but I also see that as working as a figurative statement, I suppose depending on who you think the valonquar is.

As for the queen, after rereading aFFC, I believe it is Margaery, and this part of the prophecy has mostly come to pass. I like the theories regarding Lyanna and Brienne the Beauty, especially the theory about Lyanna and Benjen. I do not think these people qualify: Dany (a queen, but has little to do with Cersei's downfall so far), Sansa (not a queen, basically no way for her to become a queen, and has little to do with Cersei's downfall), and Arya (same as Sansa). I am taking "another" to mean queen, because MTF is specifically talking about Cersei when she is queen. Admittedly, the use of "another" could mean several other things, but leaves the prophecy so wide open that it is hard to interpret. Really enjoyed the post on this thread trying to dissect what it is that Cersei holds dear. I believe the true answer is power. Cersei has already been "cast down" twice via her walk of shame through KL and losing her Regency. As for taking what she holds dear, Margaery and her family already helped kill Joffrey and now it seems that Tommen is under her control. Clearly, no other younger and more beautiful person has done more to destroy or belittle Cersei. We only have two books left to go in the series, and although they will be action-packed, I believe Cersei is coming close to the end of her life. I do not think she will live to see the last book.

I don't think Tyrion is the valonquar, rather Jaime instead. It would be an ironic plot-twist that the one person she has always trusted, and the only person she has ever loved, will be the one who becomes her undoing. It would also help redeem Jaime. I don't think Jaime is a predictable choice at all, and Cersei doesn't seem to think it will be Jaime either. Right now,I think he is the only character being set up to rid us of Cersei. Also, with her being in protection and watched, it would be difficult for someone to gain access to her person and kill her, short of a hired assasin or an arrow or poison. The valonquar would need to be someone who would at least have someone on the inside.

Sorry for dredging this topic up once again but Cersei is a great character, good or evil, and it's pretty thought-provoking because it's one of the prophecies that has actually started to come true.

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  • 1 year later...

Magy's prophecy is very, very specific - the most specific one in the series. It even tells her the number of Robert's bastards.



So I don't believe that the Valonqar is anyone's little brother in the whole world - it isn't much of a prophecy, and certainly not specific enough for Maggy's style.



Plus, Jaime being the younger twin is mentioned once (IIRC), and Cersei thinking of Tyrion is red herring enough, so I think it's Jaime. It's not the hardest prophecy to figure out should that be the case, but that doesn't make it so blatantly obvious as to consider it a red herring.


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Magy's prophecy is very, very specific - the most specific one in the series. It even tells her the number of Robert's bastards.

So I don't believe that the Valonqar is anyone's little brother in the whole world - it isn't much of a prophecy, and certainly not specific enough for Maggy's style.

Plus, Jaime being the younger twin is mentioned once (IIRC), and Cersei thinking of Tyrion is red herring enough, so I think it's Jaime. It's not the hardest prophecy to figure out should that be the case, but that doesn't make it so blatantly obvious as to consider it a red herring.

I think you are exactly right. It seems that a lot of people simply don't want anything that is figured out "too easily" to be the way GRRM goes. Tyrion is the red herring in this prophesy. Cercei assumes it is Tyrion and would never in a million years consider Jaime to be her killer. But Maggy's prophesies seem to be happening pretty much straight down the line as predicted. So if the valonqar is not Tyrion, it really seems that it needs to be Jaime--a choice that should have been obvious to Cercei but a choice she would never consider.

The more difficult question is the more beautiful queen. I think by process of elimination, Dany is the only logical choice available, but I am much less certain of this conclusion than the likelihood of Jaime as valonqar. Perhaps book 6 will introduce us to another character that could be a beautiful queen, but as of now, we are quite limited in our choices, and if not Marg (which seem unlikely again because Cercei seems to assume it is her), then Dany seems to be the only other queen around.

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I think you are exactly right. It seems that a lot of people simply don't want anything that is figured out "too easily" to be the way GRRM goes. Tyrion is the red herring in this prophesy. Cercei assumes it is Tyrion and would never in a million years consider Jaime to be her killer. But Maggy's prophesies seem to be happening pretty much straight down the line as predicted. So if the valonqar is not Tyrion, it really seems that it needs to be Jaime--a choice that should have been obvious to Cercei but a choice she would never consider.

The more difficult question is the more beautiful queen. I think by process of elimination, Dany is the only logical choice available, but I am much less certain of this conclusion than the likelihood of Jaime as valonqar. Perhaps book 6 will introduce us to another character that could be a beautiful queen, but as of now, we are quite limited in our choices, and if not Marg (which seem unlikely again because Cercei seems to assume it is her), then Dany seems to be the only other queen around.

Yes, I feel the same about the queen (as in it's a lot harder). Another option is Arianne - if she marries (f)Aegon and becomes queen (even if she is only a claimant queen). And the Martells hate the Lannisters, as would Aegon do, as he was supposed to be killed by their orders. However, Arianne is beautiful, but more in an exotic and not classic kind of way.

I think. Dany is an option, yes, also Sansa (if she becomes some sort of queen, which is hardly a given). I think that there is a decent possibility that it could be Marge, and Cersei's hatred towards her, and therefore Kettleblack's confession, is what ultimately got Cersei in this deep shit that she is in.

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Jaime as valonqar makes the most sense to me, but there's one nagging difficulty: why did Maggy say THE valonqar instead of YOUR valonqar? And why use the High Valyrian word at all?

Maggy's prophesies have been very specific and as literal and obvious as prophesies ever are. "Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close." Not ITS breath and IT is, HER breath and SHE is. That's like a huge neon sign over Cirsei's head saying "YOUR FUTURE MURDERER IS RIGHT HERE", which the reader is plainly meant to pick up on very soon after, but poor Melara doesn't. (One wonders if Cirsei made the connection between Melara's forecast death and her forecast role in it, and if so why she can't then see that, like a Greek tragedy, her every attempt to escape the prophesy only makes it come true.)

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This theory is sort of crackpot, but what if the younger, more beautiful Queen is Shireen Baratheon?



Physically we know Shireen to be ugly and afflicted by greyscale, but from what we know, she has been described as a sweet little girl. What if the beauty Maggie the Frog was referring to was inner beauty. I think Shireen being the younger, more beautiful queen would be quite a twist. Also, it would be the BIGGEST slap in the face to Cersei because Shireen is the exact opposite of Cersei and what Cersei considers to be strong and powerful. I think this would humiliate and just push Cersei over the edge way more than having an actual physically beautiful Queen take her place.



Cersei is considered to be physically beautiful and vibrant looking, but her soul is hideous to its core (that needs no explanation).


Shireen is considered to be physically ugly and sickly looking, but her soul is sweet and beautiful.



Cersei is cruel, manipulative and judgmental vs Shireen who is sweet, caring and non-judgemental (i mean her bff is Patchface).


People envy Cersei vs people pity Shireen.



Cersei considers herself a political mastermind, like her father vs, Shireen who is clearly not a political mastermind, and the daughter of Stannis, who Cersei basically sees as a joke.



GRRM has said that there will be a lot of characters sitting the iron throne by the end of the books, so perhaps Shireen will get her turn. If Stannis sits the iron throne she will be his only heir. I honestly think this would surprise me the most.


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Ooooh,I think you ahve to be careful with Maggie's prophesy.

Look at what she says: "Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

There is no mention that the younger and more beautiful is a queen -- just that there is someone younger and more beautiful that casts her down.

"Take all that you hold dear." Well, this seems to refer to the moment of casting down; there is nothing to say that what Cersei holds dear now is what she will hold dear at that precise moment. By the time the "another" comes, all Cersei holds dear may be a lock of hair from one of her dead children or her memories of her former regal life.

Remember prophesy kicks you in the arse.

Then look at this: "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

What does she mean "gold will be their shrouds?" How was Joffrey's shroud *gold*? Because he was in gilded armour? This doesn't feel right, a shroud is a fabric; otherwise, it is a metaphorical statement. And even if it is so, how will gold be Myrcella's shroud? There seems to be a gold metaphor here that maybe mean something else.

Then, with the second part, there is something else going on. "And when your tears have drowned you..." so there is some kind of *death* here and it is phrased in the perfect tense, indicating that time passes between the action of the tears starting and the eventual strangling.

My reading of the prophesy is that 1) Cersei will survive all her children. 2) She will grieve for a long time afterwards. 3) When she can no longer grieve because there is nothing left of her, someone will strangle her.

What I don't think anyone can truly say is 1) who is the younger and more beautiful ... by that point, it could be anyone. It doesn't need to be a queen at all. 2) What they take could be anything. 3) The "little brother" could mean anything. GRRM could make it mean a a junior of the Faith Militant, a young member of the BWB, it could mean Jamie, Tyrion ... crikey ... the possibilities are endless really. It could be Benjen Stark, or Rickon ... or Arya as a mummer playing Tyrion.

So, I reckon, Cersei's death will come quite a long time after both Myrcella and Tommen are dead.

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Cersei ALREADY lost everything - power, crown, prestige, beauty, Jaimie, freedom - while Dany didn't even put her feet in Westeros. Sansa is not a Queen (yet, at least), and, except her minor role in Jeoffrey assassination, she didn't take part in Cersei fall.

It obviously mean "the younger queen" is Margery.

Even if Dany finally invade Westeros, Even if Sansa lead combined North-Vale-Riverlands forces against Iron Throne (not goint to happen IMO), everything these queens can do is just killing Cersei - and prophecy clearly say she will die from valonquar's hand.

So, It is Margery. Cersei fall started with Margery arrival, Cersei started making terrible decisions leading her to prison and possible death.

I agree with Margery being the queen. I don't think we have to assume that this prophesy will come true at some point in the future; it's already coming to fruition with Cersei's downfall... After all, Cersei's downfall came about as a direct result of her scheming to bring down Margery.

As for the valonquar, I really hope it's not Jaime. I've grown to love his character, and much as it would be satisfying for him to be the one to kill her, kinslaying wouldn't really fit with his redemption arc

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Jaime as valonqar makes the most sense to me, but there's one nagging difficulty: why did Maggy say THE valonqar instead of YOUR valonqar? And why use the High Valyrian word at all?

Maggy's prophesies have been very specific and as literal and obvious as prophesies ever are. "Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close." Not ITS breath and IT is, HER breath and SHE is. That's like a huge neon sign over Cirsei's head saying "YOUR FUTURE MURDERER IS RIGHT HERE", which the reader is plainly meant to pick up on very soon after, but poor Melara doesn't. (One wonders if Cirsei made the connection between Melara's forecast death and her forecast role in it, and if so why she can't then see that, like a Greek tragedy, her every attempt to escape the prophesy only makes it come true.)

THE Valonqar because maybe the valonqar is a collective term in this case - the 'little brother' to what Cersei represents, which is House Lannister. That is, the valonqar is not just Cersei's, but ALL of the Lannisters valonqar.

How can this be?

Following on from the Petyr Reyne theory (which I noticed has been copied and pasted into several other sites now), the Reyne's were so similar to the Lannister's in everything...location, riches...even their coat of arms were a mirror of the Lannister's. It's reasonable to assume that at various times in the last few thousand years the Lannister's and Reyne's married on another too. What colour are LF's eyes? Tywin's?

House Reyne could be considered House Lannister's little brother (a cat of a different coat). Why else would The Rains of Castamere be mentioned in the text so often?

So when Cersei is the last Lannister standing, and has had EVERYTHING taken away from her - children dead, lands taken, wealth gone, Jaime gone - in comes Lord Petyr Reyne to exterminate the last Lannister.

Payback's a bitch, isn't it :)

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Freys have a bunch of valonqar.



My money would be on Devan Seaworth.



There are none younger than Lady Little Baby.



There are none more beautiful than Arianne Martell.



Nymeria Sand would also make "another younger & more beautiful."


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  • 4 weeks later...

I think Cersei was cast down the moment Robert said Lyanna's name on their wedding night. What Cersei held dear was the hope and expectation of being queen: powerful and respected. In reality it meant being forced upon by someone who didn't even care about her name.



The crowns and shrouds part seems also already fulfilled: blond Lannister kids hidden under a Barratheon cloak.

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