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Maggy the Frog, theory about her prophecy


264 replies to this topic

#41 RedBean

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:44 AM

I think Jaime is the valonquar, and Sansa will be the queen. That Sansa may be the younger queen at least makes me have some hope for Tommen and Myrcella's lives. If Sansa will be the one to take them away from Cersei, she almost certainly won't kill them (I think).

#42 ARYa_Nym

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:55 AM

I think Jaime is the valonquar, and Sansa will be the queen. That Sansa may be the younger queen at least makes me have some hope for Tommen and Myrcella's lives. If Sansa will be the one to take them away from Cersei, she almost certainly won't kill them (I think).

It would be the king not the queen who has power though unless she's the ruling Queen in the North which hasn't happened before.

If she marries Aegon Jon Connington wants to end the Usurper's line. I think Tommen and Myrcella will die as Baratheons. & Aegon seemed dismissive of the baby who died in his place.

He is also dismissive of Cersei.

"Who is there left in Westeros to oppose us? A woman."


He saved Tyrion but Tyrion isn't in his way of getting the crown.

I also think it`s Jaime. but I hate this theory, because it means Jaime will die too (because they leave this earth together like they came).

I got the impression from Jaime's dream where he visited the dead Lannisters that he will outlive Cersei. She was already there waiting for him. Of course strangling her and then being killed right after would do that but I feel like he'll last a little while after she's dead.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 20 June 2012 - 08:06 AM.


#43 Arthanis

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:58 AM

Cersei ALREADY lost everything - power, crown, prestige, beauty, Jaimie, freedom - while Dany didn't even put her feet in Westeros. Sansa is not a Queen (yet, at least), and, except her minor role in Jeoffrey assassination, she didn't take part in Cersei fall.
It obviously mean "the younger queen" is Margery.
Even if Dany finally invade Westeros, Even if Sansa lead combined North-Vale-Riverlands forces against Iron Throne (not goint to happen IMO), everything these queens can do is just killing Cersei - and prophecy clearly say she will die from valonquar's hand.

So, It is Margery. Cersei fall started with Margery arrival, Cersei started making terrible decisions leading her to prison and possible death.


The question is: who/what is Valonquar?


Tyrion is possible, but too obvious.
Jaimie is better choice, after everything Cersei did to him and after loosing all 3 children he will have good reason to kill her.

BUT

why Maggy told Cersei "valonquar", but not "your little brother"?

Is use of only one word in Valyrian in entire prophecy intentional, or not?

#44 Maxpey

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:20 AM

I read a thread about it being Stannis, and I laughed my ass off, and was like, "What? You crazy." Then I read ADWD and found this stuff in Asha's POV: She tells Stannis to make her his friend and says Robert was known for making fallen foes his friends. He blows her off. Justin Massey is like, "Bad idea. Never speak to him of Robert."

Then this stuff:
I should have known better. Asha knew how it went with little brothers. She remembered Theon a sa boy, a shy child who lived in awe, and fear, of Rodrik and Maron. They never grow out of it, she decided. A little brother may live to be a hundred, but he will always be a little brother."

Stannis is the valonqar, I am SOLD. That dialogue just sticks out like a sore thumb. It is so gratuitous. Either it's foreshadowing, or GRRM trolling the reader just for laughs.


Great theory.
Along those lines, IIRC in one of the books Cersei bemoans the fact that she probably would not be able to seduce Stannis if she needed to do so in order to save her life. If your theory is correct, I wonder if she tries to seduce him and he ends up choking her.

#45 Budj

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:30 AM

I don't think Stannis will get to kill her.

A poetic ending to Jaime and Cersei's love affair would go a little something like...

KL is being seiged...Jaime is on his way and Cersei in desperation kills Tommen thinking it's over...Jaime comes in to try and get them out...sees she killed him. Strangles her with his golden hand in his raaaage. TV show foreshadowed that thought, haha.

#46 Valyrian Spoon

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

As we see Cersei's new found love of fire when the tower of the hand is burned I can picture a mad king 2.0 scenario with Cersei about to burn Kings Landing during a siege/sacking with only Jaime to prevent it.

#47 Teal'c

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:49 AM

Brienne is also a younger sibling, since she had an older brother who died. There may be foreshadowing of this in the dream Jaime has about himself, Cersei, and Brienne in the dungeon under Casterly Rock.

And to know when Cersei has lost what is most dear to her, we have to first identify what IS most dear to her. Suspects would be Tywin, Jaime, her children, power, and vanity about her appearance. In my opinion, what she holds MOST dear is the power, and all of the rest is dear only because each is a route to power.

If her children are most dear, and then Margaery is the younger queen and will take all the rest as well.

If power is what is most dear, then whoever takes away her power as Regent is the younger queen. It may be Margaery or it may be someone else.

Crackpot: If somehow Brienne ends up defeating Robert Strong in Cersei's trial by combat, then Brienne is the one who strips Cersei of her power, thus taking that which is most dear. Her nickname is "Brienne the Beauty," after all. And I believe she is on her way to winning Jaime as well. Food for thought.

Edited by Teal'c, 08 July 2012 - 09:24 AM.


#48 rmholt

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:31 AM

Cersei ALREADY lost everything - power, crown, prestige, beauty, Jaimie, freedom - while Dany didn't even put her feet in Westeros. Sansa is not a Queen (yet, at least), and, except her minor role in Jeoffrey assassination, she didn't take part in Cersei fall.


Cersei is not done. She is a) still kicking and fighting and /cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> asked for Taena, who, IMHO, she shouldnt be trusting. She is also beautiful and could be the next queen.

MHO

#49 Kung Fu Kiddo

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:42 AM

I think Sansa is the younger, more beautiful queen and that Loras is the Valonqar. He'll get revenge on Cersei for what she did to Margaery, since I'm partially inclined to believe that Marg is gonna kick the bucket before this is all over.

Or the Valonqar is Jaime, haha.

#50 rmholt

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:34 PM

I cannot accept Jaime being the valonqar for the simple reason that he cannot wrap his HANDS around anything. He cant even hold a wineglass FXS

Marie

#51 tenchi

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:53 PM

With the use of a Valariyan word that seems to point to one of the taragryen's doing the choking, because Maggy used common tongue for the rest of the prophecy so why the different language unless it means to point to which little brother. So it leaves either Ageon (if he is not a mummurs dragon) or Jon Snow (if he is Rheagar's son) both being the only two brother of the Targaryen blood line and both having an older sibling

#52 Queen Sansa Stark

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

I think Sansa and Jaime are the younger queen and valonqar. And I do think it significant that Jaime wants to find Sansa and protect her: "Sansa Stark is my last chance at honour". Plus he and Brienne are getting closer to the Vale. They will find Sansa I am sure. I am very sure that GRRM made a double bluff with who the younger queen is. Margaery for Cersei and Daenerys for the readers. There is some unfinished business between Sansa and Cersei.

#53 Northern-She-Wolf

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:02 AM

I think Sansa is the younger more beautiful and Jaime will kill Cersei.

#54 Garlan Marius

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:49 AM

Tyrion is the obvious choice for valonqar, and that's what Cersei thinks, anyway.

Stannis is the most likely contender at this point. Doesn't Asha have a nice page-long thought about him being a "little brother?"

I guess we have other options than these two in any of the Greyjoys, Sandor, the Stark boys, or Jaime, among other less likely candidates. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but the insertion of Asha's thoughts about Stannis seem like strong foreshadowing.

#55 John W

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:20 PM

If Jamie and Cersei are twins can Jamie technically be the Valonqar? Who came out of the womb first?

#56 Mladen

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

I still think it might just refer to the Second Sons mercenary companies. They've been promised Casterly Rock (mostly) which she thinks is hers.


This is a great idea. However, I still believe it`s Sansa as younger Queen and Jaime as valonqar.

#57 Mladen

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:25 PM

If Jamie and Cersei are twins can Jamie technically be the Valonqar? Who came out of the womb first?


Cersei, and then Jaime

#58 John W

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

Great theory.
Along those lines, IIRC in one of the books Cersei bemoans the fact that she probably would not be able to seduce Stannis if she needed to do so in order to save her life. If your theory is correct, I wonder if she tries to seduce him and he ends up choking her.


I wonder if the show on HBO did a little foreshadowing with that scene where Stannis starts to choke Mel and then stops?

After all, GRRM has told the producers everything that's supposed to happen in the event of his untimely death.

Edited by John W, 09 July 2012 - 05:38 PM.


#59 Queen Sansa Stark

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 04:25 PM

I wonder if the show on HBO did a little foreshadowing with that scene where Stannis starts to choke Mel and then stops?

After all, GRRM has told the producers everything that's supposed to happen in the event of untimely death.


Now we are on the tv-show subject. I think GRRM also gave a hint with Sansa being the younger queen with the whispering of Sansa and shae in Blackwater episode. It was odd line when Shae suggested that Cersei could be jealous of Sansa. Why would GRRM even add that line in the episode if it doesn't have a double meaning..The prophecy does remind me of the fairy tale Snow White. And we shouldn't forget that Sansa is the only one Cersei admits to be beautiful. Again quite the foreshadowing. Plus Sansa did dream in AGOT she was a queen. Let's not forget Sansa comment when she was in the same room as Cersei, Little Finger, varys and pycelle. "I will be queen, just LIKE YOU. I promise." sounds quite the threat to me /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

Edited by QueenSansaStark, 09 July 2012 - 04:31 PM.


#60 Alissa

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:35 PM

well, the way the prophecy was put, it doesn't even have to be a queen ... I think it's Sansa. She certainly still has some unfinished business with Cersei and she was - unknowingly - involved in Joffrey's murder. There's also the prophecy concerning Sansa destroying a giant, and since unGregor is Cersei's champion, there may well be a connection (provided the giant in that prophecy isn't LF)

And Jaime for valonqar because Cersei would never see that coming.