164 replies to this topic

[The Trumpet of Joramun]

• Ok, so Tywin was feared all around the seven kingdoms, probably due to the way he dealt with the Reynes etc, but he had greater numbers on both of these occasions, so they weren't exactly great feats. He was also feared because he took no shit, e.g. banishing whores, parading Tytos' wife around streets etc. But is he any good as a battle commander?
  
• In the war of the five kings the Lannisters were the only ones not to win a single battle on their own merits. Not too impressive from the house of the feared Tywin Lannister, huh? Robb Stark had inferior numbers.
  
• In the end , he defeated the Northerners by trickery and deception, by organizing the Red wedding, but getting the Freys and Boltons to do the dirty work, and letting no suspicions fall on him. Some theories also suggest that he organized the whole Robb-Jeyne thing, with Sybelle Spicer. We already know she betrayed Robb, so it could be possible, but I personally doubt it. Anyway, it is a dishonorable way to do it. A masterstroke, people might say, but it took no military prowess to do it, only a scheming and intelligent mind.
  
• Also, during the Rebellion, he didn't turn up till the war was won, and even then he only sacked Kings Landing by trickery and deception.Some might argue this was smart, but I think it was cowardly and dishonorable,  and didn't take any skill as a battle commander to achieve.
  
• Some might also argue about the Battle of the Blackwater, but would Stannis have been defeated if the Tyrells hadn't joined with the Lannisters? They caught Stannis unawares and smashed him, a clever move, admittedly, but would It have been done without the Tyrells?

So what are peoples thoughts on this? Did Tywin deserve his reputation, or is he really a bad battle commander, and got his reputation from scheming and deception, like I believe? Where did he get his military reputation from? I would love to know peoples thoughts on this. Thanks
Edit: this has probably been discussed before, but i haven't seen anything recently.

Edited by The Trumpet of Joramun, 20 June 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[Lady Hodor]

I think Tywin's repuation as devious, cunning, intelligent and generally having a brilliant mind in strategy may have been contagious.
While it mainly focussed around court life with the lords and rulers, his reputation for it spread into the concept of battle and warfare too.
Even if he may not have actually been as equally brilliant when it came to true battle plans, people assumed he was just as great

...Though I still reckon he was a little bit harsh on everyone.

Edited by Lady Hodor, 20 June 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Lord Leyton]

Let's just say that Tywin has the greatest PR department in Westeros, also Tywin seems like a decent commander and I doubt that unlike the idiot Jaime and his idiot cousin that he would actually have enough scouts out to see enemy forces approaching.

[RedBean]

I think he's great at governing the realm. Even though he was ruthless, he did seem to do a great job when he was Hand. But as a battle commander, I don't think he was the best. He probably was a good strategist, but not good enough to beat the Blackfish, or say, Randyll Tarly etc. So yeah, there's probably some exaggeration to say that he was a "great" battle commander.

His winning over the North shows that he's good at using whatever is necessary (even underhanded tricks) to win. I guess he knew he wasn't good enough a battle commander to defeat Robb fair and square. But he is cunning.

[Frey Pie]

Always has been over-rated for all the reasons you pointed out. He was a good strategist but not a brilliant field commander.

Gotta point out though he won the Green Fork

[The Last Reyne]

I agree he was a better strategist than actual battle field commander.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

This is not entirely true.  Tywin was in command of the battle Tyrion witnessed, and the Lannisters won, in A Game of Thrones.  It was sort of a gimme, but Tywin still won that battle, without any dirty tricks.  It is also worth noting that Robb's army never met Tywin's on the field, so it is at least possible that Tywin could have beaten him fair and square - if that battle had ever taken place.

[Bran the Deciduous]

The Trumpet of Joramun, on 20 June 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

• Ok, so Tywin was feared all around the seven kingdoms, probably due to the way he dealt with the Reynes etc, but he had greater numbers on both of these occasions, so they weren't exactly great feats. He was also feared because he took no shit, e.g. banishing whores, parading Tytos' wife around streets etc. But is he any good as a battle commander?
  
• In the war of the five kings the Lannisters were the only ones not to win a single battle on their own merits. Not too impressive from the house of the feared Tywin Lannister, huh? Robb Stark had inferior numbers.
  
• In the end , he defeated the Northerners by trickery and deception, by organizing the Red wedding, but getting the Freys and Boltons to do the dirty work, and letting no suspicions fall on him. Some theories also suggest that he organized the whole Robb-Jeyne thing, with Sybelle Spicer. We already know she betrayed Robb, so it could be possible, but I personally doubt it. Anyway, it is a dishonorable way to do it. A masterstroke, people might say, but it took no military prowess to do it, only a scheming and intelligent mind.
  
• Also, during the Rebellion, he didn't turn up till the war was won, and even then he only sacked Kings Landing by trickery and deception.Some might argue this was smart, but I think it was cowardly and dishonorable,  and didn't take any skill as a battle commander to achieve.
  
• Some might also argue about the Battle of the Blackwater, but would Stannis have been defeated if the Tyrells hadn't joined with the Lannisters? They caught Stannis unawares and smashed him, a clever move, admittedly, but would It have been done without the Tyrells?

So what are peoples thoughts on this? Did Tywin deserve his reputation, or is he really a bad battle commander, and got his reputation from scheming and deception, like I believe? Where did he get his military reputation from? I would love to know peoples thoughts on this. Thanks
Edit: this has probably been discussed before, but i haven't seen anything recently.

In the war of the five kings the Lannisters defeated the armies of the Tully's under the walls of Riverrun before the Starks had even gotten down the causeway. Jaime as I recall was actually in command at this encounter but Edmure's host had been weakened by Tywin's strategy of raiding the riverlands and forcing the Tully bannermen to disperse.

Tywin is victorious at the Green Fork against the bulk of the northern army under Roose Bolton. Bolton is not really effective for the rest of the war and only takes Harrenhal when Tywin has left. At this battle Tywin avoids being caught unawares by Bolton although his own strategy for totally smashing the Stark army is also a failure owing to Bolton's caution.

We don't know all the details about Blackwater, we don't even know who was commander-in-chief of the joint Tyrell Lannister host, although it was probably Tywin. Given Tywin's numbers, Stannis's numbers and the fact Tywin took him by surprise, he would have had a good chance without the Tyrell's imo but the result would have been far less certain.

We also don't know the composition of the Tyrell army, it looks like a lot of their knights were with Stannis and Mace was left with his less effective infantry.

I don't see that Tywin comes across as a less effective battlefield commander than Robb. It is notable in the text that Robb' two victories were against generals with a reputation for a lack of caution or even basic ability (Jaime and Strafford). Tywin certainly did not lack this, as the battle on the Green Fork showed. If Robb had faced Tywin who knows what might have happened. Tywin's two victories were over lords who seem pretty competent, Bolton and Stannis. Robb's only really major win, the WW, was due to a pretty unusual set of circumstances, namely the sudden Stark-Frey alliance. Oxcross was won over a horde of ill disciplined levies. Essentially I don't think anyone comes across as Alexander the Great but Tywin was just as good a commander as anyone else.

Edited by Procopius, 20 June 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Prince Doran Martell]

Although he did presumably have a numerical advantage over the Reynes and Tarbecks, the feat was still impressive for several reasons. The Reynes were his strongest bannermen, so they were a well known family. And I assume the Tarbecks were pretty strong too otherwise they probably wouldn't have had the balls to rebel. Not only he did defeat them both, but he did so when the Reynes and the Tarbecks both had the advantage of strong fortified positions. Then he killed every single member of their families, eliminating the possibility of future rebellions from them. I think this could be compared to the Tullys wiping the Freys and another strong familiy like the Mallisters. Even though Tywin had seemingly every advantage, it still says something for him to be able to wipe out two strong, respected families like the way he did.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Prince Doran Martell, on 20 June 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Although he did presumably have a numerical advantage over the Reynes and Tarbecks, the feat was still impressive for several reasons. The Reynes were his strongest bannermen, so they were a well known family. And I assume the Tarbecks were pretty strong too otherwise they probably wouldn't have had the balls to rebel. Not only he did defeat them both, but he did so when the Reynes and the Tarbecks both had the advantage of strong fortified positions. Then he killed every single member of their families, eliminating the possibility of future rebellions from them. I think this could be compared to the Tullys wiping the Freys and another strong familiy like the Mallisters. Even though Tywin had seemingly every advantage, it still says something for him to be able to wipe out two strong, respected families like the way he did.

We don't even know he did have a numerical advantage.

Lannister credibility might have been so low at that point Tytos's other banners might not have responded to Tywin's call to arms. The Reyne-Tarbeck episode was about re-asserting lannister power over their bannermen so it stands to reason Tywin probably didn't have all the rest of the Westerlands solidly behind him at this point.

[Ragnorak]

Tywin's reputation as a brilliant battle commander was completely undeserved even if he actually had the ability to live up to that reputation-- it was never truly tested.  Tywin engagaed in some battles where he possessed superior numbers and won.  You are supposed to win with superior numbers so victory is hardly proof of brilliance.

Tywin attacked the Riverlands to get Edmure to spread out his forces.  Tywin had a plan, executed it and manipulated his enemy into following it.  Tywin 1 Edmure 0.  But Edmure defeated Tywin at the river crossing so Tywin is tied 1 to 1 with Edmure.  Robb planned to make Tywin believe he was marching on him and Tywin fell for it.  Robb planned to use Tywin taking this bait to capture Jaime and break the seige at Riverrun.  Robb's plan worked across the board with both Jaime and Tywin following Robb's plan.

Tywin then retreated to Harrenhall. Retreating is a tactical choice to trade land for time which was an intelligent choice given the circumstances and not a defeat.  Tywin then concludes that he can win a waiting game with Robb and that Robb must either wait or attack Harrenhall.  Robb does neither.  Robb attacks the Westerlands to force Tywin to come to him.  Tywin comes to Robb.  So after his opening move, Tywin fails to predict his opponents and fails as well to force his opponents into actions that he has planned.  At the same time Tywin is forced or tricked into complying with his opponents plans on multiple occasions.  Of course these are only clues.  Robb and Tywin never actually met in battle which would be the real proof.  But the clues seem to imply a more cautious, competent commander who knows that he has superior numbers and uses them in a traditional manner.  Tywin only demonstrates exceptionalism in his brutality not his tactical or strategic warfare planning.

Tywin was primarily feared because of his scorched earth responses.  The Reynes, the Tarbecks, the 4 year old princess stabbed over 50 times, Elia being raped with her infant sons brains used as-- well you get the picture.  Defeat is always possible, and the brutal annihilation of a House that loses against Tywin Lannister is almost as certain as Winter.  That is where his reputation really comes from.  If he was a military genius, he died before he could show anybody.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Ragnorak, on 20 June 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Tywin's reputation as a brilliant battle commander was completely undeserved even if he actually had the ability to live up to that reputation-- it was never truly tested.  Tywin engagaed in some battles where he possessed superior numbers and won.  You are supposed to win with superior numbers so victory is hardly proof of brilliance.

Tywin attacked the Riverlands to get Edmure to spread out his forces.  Tywin had a plan, executed it and manipulated his enemy into following it.  Tywin 1 Edmure 0.  But Edmure defeated Tywin at the river crossing so Tywin is tied 1 to 1 with Edmure.  Robb planned to make Tywin believe he was marching on him and Tywin fell for it.  Robb planned to use Tywin taking this bait to capture Jaime and break the seige at Riverrun.  Robb's plan worked across the board with both Jaime and Tywin following Robb's plan.

Tywin then retreated to Harrenhall. Retreating is a tactical choice to trade land for time which was an intelligent choice given the circumstances and not a defeat.  Tywin then concludes that he can win a waiting game with Robb and that Robb must either wait or attack Harrenhall.  Robb does neither.  Robb attacks the Westerlands to force Tywin to come to him.  Tywin comes to Robb.  So after his opening move, Tywin fails to predict his opponents and fails as well to force his opponents into actions that he has planned.  At the same time Tywin is forced or tricked into complying with his opponents plans on multiple occasions.  Of course these are only clues.  Robb and Tywin never actually met in battle which would be the real proof.  But the clues seem to imply a more cautious, competent commander who knows that he has superior numbers and uses them in a traditional manner.  Tywin only demonstrates exceptionalism in his brutality not his tactical or strategic warfare planning.

Tywin was primarily feared because of his scorched earth responses.  The Reynes, the Tarbecks, the 4 year old princess stabbed over 50 times, Elia being raped with her infant sons brains used as-- well you get the picture.  Defeat is always possible, and the brutal annihilation of a House that loses against Tywin Lannister is almost as certain as Winter.  That is where his reputation really comes from.  If he was a military genius, he died before he could show anybody.

I'm actually not clear where it was ever said that Tywin was a military genius? Maybe you can help me out. He was just a seasoned commander of men, with a reputation for for cunning and astuteness. I'm not sure GrrM really does military genius.

I do think Tywin was not an inferior commander to anyone else that we've see in action though.

On the Edmure thing, the two battles are hardly comparable. Edmure suffered a crushing defeat, his army was routed or captured, he was taken prisoner and his home besieged. You can't seriously say its 1-1 when old ed stops Tywin crossing a river after what appears to have been a few intense skirmishes. I doubt the bulk of the two armies ever engaged.  

Tywin did get duped by Robb sure, but Frey behaved, imo, somewhat erratically and Cat played him well. Not the sort of event one easily foresees. The man mainly responsible for lannister defeat in that campaign was Jaime, not Tywin.

Tywin's waiting game did not work yes, nor did Robb's plan either, owing to a mistake on his part (not communicating with Edmure).

Might be of interest that Alexander the Great's second biggest victory, Issus, was won after he had abandoned a plan to wait for Darius III in Cilicia (near Tarsus) and proceeded down the coast, allowing Darius to cut him off in the rear. The result of the campaign is the most important, not the prior operational footwork and Tywin and Robb never met on the battlefield so...

[Ragnorak]

RedBean, on 20 June 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

I think he's great at governing the realm. Even though he was ruthless, he did seem to do a great job when he was Hand. But as a battle commander, I don't think he was the best. He probably was a good strategist, but not good enough to beat the Blackfish, or say, Randyll Tarly etc. So yeah, there's probably some exaggeration to say that he was a "great" battle commander.

His winning over the North shows that he's good at using whatever is necessary (even underhanded tricks) to win. I guess he knew he wasn't good enough a battle commander to defeat Robb fair and square. But he is cunning.

We don't know that he did a great job of governing the Realm.  Tywin became Hand before his father died.  So Tywin never ruled Casterly Rock until he resigned as Hand after the Tournament at Harrenhall.  Since Aerys was King Tywin never actually ruled anything until after the Tournament at Harrenhall.  Aerys went to Duskendale to negotiate.  It is a fairly safe assumption that the "real ruler" Mr. Rains of Castamere did not choose negotiation.  So Tywin certainly wasn't ruling then.  Varys got hired because Aerys did not trust Tywin so Tywin wasn't ruling leading up to Varys and certainly not afterwards.  Since we have reasons to doubt the rumors that Tywin "ruled the Realm" might we have reasons to doubt other impressions conveyed about Tywin?

[Bran the Deciduous]

Ragnorak, on 20 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

We don't know that he did a great job of governing the Realm.  Tywin became Hand before his father died.  So Tywin never ruled Casterly Rock until he resigned as Hand after the Tournament at Harrenhall.  Since Aerys was King Tywin never actually ruled anything until after the Tournament at Harrenhall.  Aerys went to Duskendale to negotiate.  It is a fairly safe assumption that the "real ruler" Mr. Rains of Castamere did not choose negotiation.  So Tywin certainly wasn't ruling then.  Varys got hired because Aerys did not trust Tywin so Tywin wasn't ruling leading up to Varys and certainly not afterwards.  Since we have reasons to doubt the rumors that Tywin "ruled the Realm" might we have reasons to doubt other impressions conveyed about Tywin?

Tywin would have ruled Casterly Rock from the day his father died. You can be hand and be lord paramount, indeed, if you play your cards right one post can strengthen the other.

I think the point is obvious but it is mentioned that Aerys and Rhaegar came west for a tourney Tywin held at Casterly Rock, so he clearly returned home every so often. CR isn't as far from KL as Winterfell either, Ned would be in a more difficult situation as Hand.

[jarl the climber]

One thing to keep in mind about Tywin is that he had no real beef with the North and wanted to get them out of the war as soon as possible. He did not want Ned to be execute, he had nothing to do with what happened at Winterfell with Bran and Rickon. He probaly assumed the girls would be taken hostage but would not be harmed and treated according to their station. He expected that Cat would be spared at the Red Wedding and he did not want Robb dead from the beginning, he was a boy and Tywin meant to show him his place, but the murder of his Father turned a spat into a blood fued and forced Tywin to condone the Red Wedding plot.

From Tywins point of veiw politics was of prime importance and the military fighting was secondary as the politics laid the ground for military success. In that sense Tywin was a shrewd commander and in many ways a much shrewder one than Robb. However his calculations were upset by actions outside of his control, Robbs alliance with the Freys and Joffs murder of Ned. Tyrion and Jaime both felt the war in truth was a loss for their house and the melancholy that Tyrion noticed in Tywin that he thought so unlike him indicates that he had similar feelings. The supposed destruction of house Stark is not something he wanted on his tombstone.

[Ragnorak]

Procopius, on 20 June 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

I'm actually not clear where it was ever said that Tywin was a military genius? Maybe you can help me out. He was just a seasoned commander of men, with a reputation for for cunning and astuteness. I'm not sure GrrM really does military genius.

I do think Tywin was not an inferior commander to anyone else that we've see in action though.

On the Edmure thing, the two battles are hardly comparable. Edmure suffered a crushing defeat, his army was routed or captured, he was taken prisoner and his home besieged. You can't seriously say its 1-1 when old ed stops Tywin crossing a river after what appears to have been a few intense skirmishes. I doubt the bulk of the two armies ever engaged.  

Tywin did get duped by Robb sure, but Frey behaved, imo, somewhat erratically and Cat played him well. Not the sort of event one easily foresees. The man mainly responsible for lannister defeat in that campaign was Jaime, not Tywin.

Tywin's waiting game did not work yes, nor did Robb's plan either, owing to a mistake on his part (not communicating with Edmure).

Might be of interest that Alexander the Great's second biggest victory, Issus, was won after he had abandoned a plan to wait for Darius III in Cilicia (near Tarsus) and proceeded down the coast, allowing Darius to cut him off in the rear. The result of the campaign is the most important, not the prior operational footwork and Tywin and Robb never met on the battlefield so...

The 1 to1 tie with Edmure wasn't equating the battles but rather the ability to predict the chess moves.  Tywin predicted that he could get Edmure to spread his forces out (which he did) and Tywin predicted he could get across the river and to the Westerlands which he couldn't.  Tywin's plan was to get to Robb and it wasn't like needing to cross that river was a mystery before he left.  As a commander he failed to predict and account for Edmure defending the river, but Edmure predicted Tywin's plans for crossing and thwarted them.

The difference in the point I was making about Robb and Tywin was also about the chess match between the two.  Tywin tried predicting what Robb would do and was wrong.  Wrong about waiting and wrong about where he would attack.  Robb predicted what Tywin would do and forced him to abandon the waiting game.  Seperating out the size and scope of the battles and looking at each commander's ability to predict the other's actions and manipulate the opponent Tywin falls short.

[jarl the climber]

Ragnorak, on 20 June 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

The 1 to1 tie with Edmure wasn't equating the battles but rather the ability to predict the chess moves.  Tywin predicted that he could get Edmure to spread his forces out (which he did) and Tywin predicted he could get across the river and to the Westerlands which he couldn't.  Tywin's plan was to get to Robb and it wasn't like needing to cross that river was a mystery before he left.  As a commander he failed to predict and account for Edmure defending the river, but Edmure predicted Tywin's plans for crossing and thwarted them.

The difference in the point I was making about Robb and Tywin was also about the chess match between the two.  Tywin tried predicting what Robb would do and was wrong.  Wrong about waiting and wrong about where he would attack.  Robb predicted what Tywin would do and forced him to abandon the waiting game.  Seperating out the size and scope of the battles and looking at each commander's ability to predict the other's actions and manipulate the opponent Tywin falls short.

Actually from Robbs point of veiw it was Edmure who fell short not Tywin.

[Mulled Wino]

Ragnorak, on 20 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

We don't know that he did a great job of governing the Realm.  Tywin became Hand before his father died.  So Tywin never ruled Casterly Rock until he resigned as Hand after the Tournament at Harrenhall.  Since Aerys was King Tywin never actually ruled anything until after the Tournament at Harrenhall.  Aerys went to Duskendale to negotiate.  It is a fairly safe assumption that the "real ruler" Mr. Rains of Castamere did not choose negotiation.  So Tywin certainly wasn't ruling then.  Varys got hired because Aerys did not trust Tywin so Tywin wasn't ruling leading up to Varys and certainly not afterwards.  Since we have reasons to doubt the rumors that Tywin "ruled the Realm" might we have reasons to doubt other impressions conveyed about Tywin?

With all due respect, this is nuts.

You really think Aerys cared about euling the realm over holding petty grudges and making arbitrary displays or power and being paranoid?  

C'mon...,  Aerys is the hardest type of king to be hand for.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Ragnorak, on 20 June 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

The 1 to1 tie with Edmure wasn't equating the battles but rather the ability to predict the chess moves.  Tywin predicted that he could get Edmure to spread his forces out (which he did) and Tywin predicted he could get across the river and to the Westerlands which he couldn't.  Tywin's plan was to get to Robb and it wasn't like needing to cross that river was a mystery before he left.  As a commander he failed to predict and account for Edmure defending the river, but Edmure predicted Tywin's plans for crossing and thwarted them.

The difference in the point I was making about Robb and Tywin was also about the chess match between the two.  Tywin tried predicting what Robb would do and was wrong.  Wrong about waiting and wrong about where he would attack.  Robb predicted what Tywin would do and forced him to abandon the waiting game.  Seperating out the size and scope of the battles and looking at each commander's ability to predict the other's actions and manipulate the opponent Tywin falls short.

Well your post didn't read that way to me but ok.

As I mentioned Robb, while he was correct in thinking Tywin would eventually come west, and that the Riverlands would just have to adsorb the damage, failed to make his commanders aware of the plan and botched his own design. One triumph of planning and insight ruined by a misstep that looks pretty incompetent.

I tend to think Tywin did foresee he might face resistance crossing the river. We also don't know whether Tywin would have persisted and perhaps forced a crossing if news had not reached him that Stannis was on the march for KL (I'm unsure when this news was supposed to arrive?). If that is the case the whole point would be moot because Edmure or no Edmure Tywin might have gotten word in time so that his strategy of remaining in the east would have paid off.

Last point, I thought GoT showed that Tywin still considers Stannis the biggest threat and so he had more reasons for remaining at Harrenhal than the belief he would tempt Robb to come east. It was a catch all plan, he would be in a position to intercept Stannis, or Renly and hopefully Robb would oblige him too by coming to Harrenhal. Then Renly's army was sundered, Stannis looked to be staying at SE, the Tyrells were in a huff, and Tywin thought he could afford to go and deal with the young wolf. On this way of looking at it, Robb's strategy only paid off through factors which he didn't even consider (the politics of the south) and marching west was moreover, never that inimical to Tywin, providing other things fell into place, like the pacification (albeit temporarily) of Joff's foes in the south.

Which was the case before the second SHADOWBABY.

Edited due to some insane typos.

Edited by Procopius, 20 June 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[jarl the climber]

Mulled Wino, on 20 June 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

With all due respect, this is nuts.

You really think Aerys cared about euling the realm over holding petty grudges and making arbitrary displays or power and being paranoid?  

C'mon...,  Aerys is the hardest type of king to be hand for.

What happened to Little Orphan Annie? It gave me flashbacks to my childhood every time I saw it.