331 replies to this topic

[sumant30]

aryagonnakill, on 09 August 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Ya I always thought we would find out Benjen left those, we haven't been introduced to any other candidate for that, plus I'm pretty sure Jon noticed that the cloak wasn't that old.  I also think there is a good chance Benjen is Coldhands, I know the whole died a long time ago thing, but I kind of took that as a statement just meaning that he was already dead and wasn't in any danger.  I think it works that Coldhands is Benjen because if Bloodraven go's into the Weirwood network permanently and all the way he may tell Bran who he is, or Bran will simply take control of him/ take over whatever relationship Bloodraven has with him and will then be able to learn everything he knows and everything that happened to him.

Finally someone agrees with me

[bemused]

Long ago ?....( sorry to have to disagree .. I liked one of your posts on another thread... )

No , I don't think it can be more than 3yrs. or so since Benjen went missing. (At the very maximum, four ) Arya was 8 when she left WF..Jon was 14..somewhere, more recently ( when he receives the engagement letter ?) I believe Jon thinks Arya would be about 11 or so ( maybe 12 at most ). When Jon meets Alys Karstark , she looks to be too old to be Arya.. She says she was 16 on her last nameday...Jon thinks she's ...almost of an age with him.. again , allowing the most time possible to have elapsed , that would make Jon 18  ( or maybe as young as 17). But even if we take the oldest estimate for Jon , four years would not be "long ago" to the CoTF. ( I think it's more like 3 yrs, but I don't mind calling it 4 for the sake of argument.)

I do kind of want to tear my hair out when people say, Benjen wouldn't break his oath to the NW , though. Are we to think that Benjen is less intelligent than Jon ? If Jon can see that outworn convention has to be cast aside, and it's the spirit of the core tenets of the oath that count, I'm sure Benjen could as well...and wherever he is , why should we assume that his intention is not to return to the watch ? Why should we assume he has deserted ? Perhaps , on his ranging , one thing has led to another and he still has something important to do first.

Though I can see possibilities for the HM  to be some other Northman, I think Benjen would best bring together the various hints and suggestions  strewn throughout the novels . Winterfell and the Wall both built by Bran the builder..magic being used in the raising of the Wall ..Must always be a Stark in WF ..secret passages..Starks having a special relationship to the Wall , and being looked to for leadership by the Northerners .

So , Benjen left on his ranging to learn what was going on north of the wall and if the Others had really returned. We know the CoTF and BR have been guiding Bran. We know they have CH at their disposal, to aid people they see as important in the struggle against the Others. Why not Benjen ? If they see two Starks as key to their efforts , why not a third ?

Of course,  GRRM may have another path entirely in mind for Benjen, but if he does place him in WF, there will be good reason for it, and I'd bet without tarnishing Benjen too much..

If he's been briefed by BR and the CoTF and returned to WF by way of the gate under the Nightfort, he could still have left the obsidian and horn at the Fist. If he travelled by some other route ( CoTF tunnels), CH could easily have left them.

[sumant30]

bemused, on 10 August 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Long ago ?.. ..( sorry to have to disagree .. I liked one of your posts on another thread... )

No , I don't think it can be more than 3yrs. or so since Benjen went missing. (At the very maximum, four ) Arya was 8 when she left WF..Jon was 14..somewhere, more recently ( when he receives the engagement letter ?) I believe Jon thinks Arya would be about 11 or so ( maybe 12 at most ). When Jon meets Alys Karstark , she looks to be too old to be Arya.. She says she was 16 on her last nameday...Jon thinks she's ...almost of an age with him.. again , allowing the most time possible to have elapsed , that would make Jon 18  ( or maybe as young as 17). But even if we take the oldest estimate for Jon , four years would not be "long ago" to the CoTF. ( I think it's more like 3 yrs, but I don't mind calling it 4 for the sake of argument.)

I do kind of want to tear my hair out when people say, Benjen wouldn't break his oath to the NW , though. Are we to think that Benjen is less intelligent than Jon ? If Jon can see that outworn convention has to be cast aside, and it's the spirit of the core tenets of the oath that count, I'm sure Benjen could as well...and wherever he is , why should we assume that his intention is not to return to the watch ? Why should we assume he has deserted ? Perhaps , on his ranging , one thing has led to another and he still has something important to do first.

Though I can see possibilities for the HM  to be some other Northman, I think Benjen would best bring together the various hints and suggestions  strewn throughout the novels . Winterfell and the Wall both built by Bran the builder..magic being used in the raising of the Wall ..Must always be a Stark in WF ..secret passages..Starks having a special relationship to the Wall , and being looked to for leadership by the Northerners .

So , Benjen left on his ranging to learn what was going on north of the wall and if the Others had really returned. We know the CoTF and BR have been guiding Bran. We know they have CH at their disposal, to aid people they see as important in the struggle against the Others. Why not Benjen ? If they see two Starks as key to their efforts , why not a third ?

Of course,  GRRM may have another path entirely in mind for Benjen, but if he does place him in WF, there will be good reason for it, and I'd bet without tarnishing Benjen too much..

If he's been briefed by BR and the CoTF and returned to WF by way of the gate under the Nightfort, he could still have left the obsidian and horn at the Fist. If he travelled by some other route ( CoTF tunnels), CH could easily have left them.

The thing is we don't know benjen as yet how a person he was? we know ned was very honorable man and brandon was a wild one, how was benjen we do not know even in the story told by meera to bran she only mentioned brandon,ned and lyanna there was no benjen in it so we can't predict how he was ? if he was more like his elder brother i think we would have definitely seen him when ned was executed he would have  at least been there,  but as he was lost in ranging in north i think word would not have reached him so also of the robb's rebellion then the sack of WF so we can assume here that  he does not know what has taken place in WF since he left for ranging, so i highly doubt he can come back to WF.

[bemused]

We know Benjen was the First Ranger of the Night's Watch. This implies skill and intelligence. He was respected by other respected leaders of the Watch , such as Jeor Mormont , Qhorin Half hand , Maester Aemon , etc.

Meera does mention Benjen ,but he was only a "pup" at the time.

I think we can easily assume that he can have been in touch with Bloodraven , the CoTF and CH on his ranging. He might have found his way to them , or they may have sought him out , or rescued him , as they did Sam. ..If he was with them , he would of course have known about Ned , Robb , WF, and possibly more, since BR tells Bran he will eventually be able to see into the future, as well as the past and present.

If you believe they could / would recruit him to their cause after he was dead , I don't know why you would think they couldn't do it while he was alive.. If there is some very important reason he should go back to WF that has to do with the common good and resistance against the Others, they would know and be able to tell him.

Maybe that won't be the way GRRM writes it, but  the possibility absolutely exists. We've seen all the necessary elements written about in Bran's and Sam's storylines, hinted at in many many places..we can't deny that they could come together in Benjen's story.

[Catacombs]

bemused, on 10 August 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

If he's been briefed by BR and the CoTF and returned to WF by way of the gate under the Nightfort, he could still have left the obsidian and horn at the Fist. If he travelled by some other route ( CoTF tunnels), CH could easily have left them.

He is the First Ranger and his mission as a member of the NW is to fight The Others. If that required there to be Stark in Winterfell and his ranging took him there then he would not be breaking any vow.

It seems logical to me that characters hidden but often discussed in the first five books will play a bigger role in the last two. Of those, I think Howland Reed, Benjen Stark and Gerion Lannister are likely to become active and know players in the story. That Benjen's story arc would take him to BR's cave to the Fist of the First Men to Winterfell would not be a surprise.

[sumant30]

Catacombs, on 10 August 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

He is the First Ranger and his mission as a member of the NW is to fight The Others. If that required there to be Stark in Winterfell and his ranging took him there then he would not be breaking any vow.

It seems logical to me that characters hidden but often discussed in the first five books will play a bigger role in the last two. Of those, I think Howland Reed, Benjen Stark and Gerion Lannister are likely to become active and know players in the story. That Benjen's story arc would take him to BR's cave to the Fist of the First Men to Winterfell would not be a surprise.

How can benjen survive such a harsh winter alone, and i think ranging only involved beyond the wall.

[aryagonnakill]

I remember Benjen telling Jon all the way back in GOT that he would always care for Ned but that his brothers were at the wall now.  If Benjen actually knew that getting a Stark in Winterfell could help defeat the others somehow then that wouldn't be breaking his vows, but we have no way of knowing that this is so.  I definitely don't think he would be in Winterfell unless it had to do with the NW i don't think he would ever break his vows.

[sumant30]

aryagonnakill, on 10 August 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

I remember Benjen telling Jon all the way back in GOT that he would always care for Ned but that his brothers were at the wall now.  If Benjen actually knew that getting a Stark in Winterfell could help defeat the others somehow then that wouldn't be breaking his vows, but we have no way of knowing that this is so.  I definitely don't think he would be in Winterfell unless it had to do with the NW i don't think he would ever break his vows.

Agreed because he is a stark after all which is good as well as bad.

[bemused]

aryagonnakill, on 10 August 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

I remember Benjen telling Jon all the way back in GOT that he would always care for Ned but that his brothers were at the wall now.  If Benjen actually knew that getting a Stark in Winterfell could help defeat the others somehow then that wouldn't be breaking his vows, but we have no way of knowing that this is so. I definitely don't think he would be in Winterfell unless it had to do with the NW i don't think he would ever break his vows.

True.We have no way of knowing this is so, but to my mind, we have many hints to lead us to suspect this is so.
The very least of these ( without considering any of the magical reasons or forces that may come into play ) is that we know that the Starks and WF have always been a friend to the Watch, supported the watch , acted in concert with the watch to prevent incursions ( Raymun Redbeard ) and stamp out threats to the wall and the Watch ( Night's King ). The same cannot be said of the Boltons , and definitely not the Lannisters.

Proceeding south from the wall , WF is the next most northerly stronghold with massive defenses , should a breakthrough occur.

The greatest threat from the Others that has been seen in a thousand years is looming, and the wall is pitifully undermanned.

sumant30, on 10 August 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Agreed because he is a stark after all which is good as well as bad.

And what would be the bad , and what the good if Benjen turns up in WF ?  Bad or good for what or whom ? Might not the concept of bad or good change depending on the circumstances ? ..Or are we all meant to think like Bowen Marsh ?

Edited by bemused, 10 August 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[sumant30]

bemused, on 10 August 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

True.We have no way of knowing this is so, but to my mind, we have many hints to lead us to suspect this is so.
The very least of these ( without considering any of the magical reasons or forces that may come into play ) is that we know that the Starks and WF have always been a friend to the Watch, supported the watch , acted in concert with the watch to prevent incursions ( Raymun Redbeard ) and stamp out threats to the wall and the Watch ( Night's King ). The same cannot be said of the Boltons , and definitely not the Lannisters.

Proceeding south from the wall , WF is the next most northerly stronghold with massive defenses , should a breakthrough occur.

The greatest threat from the Others that has been seen in a thousand years is looming, and the wall is pitifully undermanned.



And what would be the bad , and what the good if Benjen turns up in WF ?  Bad or good for what or whom ? Might not the concept of bad or good change depending on the circumstances ? ..Or are we all meant to think like Bowen Marsh ?

I meant good in the sense that starks because they have very high honor the man bran meets while traveling to wall tells him that even a maiden was safe on road when we had a stark in WF, and bad in the sense that they expect the same from other people due to which they have been so outplayed until now.

[bemused]

I just look at it as one of GRRM's games of Cyvasse...actually more like a series of matches like we see between Tyrion and Ben Plumm... No one should expect to get to the end without losing a few pieces. To be able to win , the player has to learn to predict the other man's game. Don't expose your most important pieces too soon. If your opponent enjoys early success , even if it was costly to you , he's likely to become over confident and make a few fatal errors.

Ned let himself get talked into a game , but his heart wasn't in it.In fact , he was taking over a game half played by Jon Arryn. Cat let her game be ruled by emotion. Robb became over confident , and fell victim to cheating.. All the other Starks have been learning the game as they go , but have only just begun to make serious moves.

The current set of Starks have been learning not to expect honour in their opponents. We have yet to see how they'll do , but they're coming into their games better prepared . They'll have had the benefit of observing how others have played and the outcome of their matches.

Honour is admirable in the Starks but it's probably not the only "good" quality they have .

[sumant30]

bemused, on 13 August 2012 - 12:17 PM, said:

I just look at it as one of GRRM's games of Cyvasse...actually more like a series of matches like we see between Tyrion and Ben Plumm... No one should expect to get to the end without losing a few pieces. To be able to win , the player has to learn to predict the other man's game. Don't expose your most important pieces too soon. If your opponent enjoys early success , even if it was costly to you , he's likely to become over confident and make a few fatal errors.

Ned let himself get talked into a game , but his heart wasn't in it.In fact , he was taking over a game half played by Jon Arryn. Cat let her game be ruled by emotion. Robb became over confident , and fell victim to cheating.. All the other Starks have been learning the game as they go , but have only just begun to make serious moves.

The current set of Starks have been learning not to expect honour in their opponents. We have yet to see how they'll do , but they're coming into their games better prepared . They'll have had the benefit of observing how others have played and the outcome of their matches.

Honour is admirable in the Starks but it's probably not the only "good" quality they have .

I agree but regarding robb i think he won all the battles but he could not manage his allies properly and once the freys were lost everything got harder and harder for him if it had been jon in his place i think he would have done better because from the advice he always gave stannis jon has a very good brain for stratergy, regarding arya i think she will become one of the most powerful characters sansa is gonna become hopefully a major game player which the starks need very badly someone who knows the game, rickon is going to be the wild wolf the unforgiving one and bran a greenseer.