193 replies to this topic

[EgoistMusketeer]

I decided to make a thread in response to the UnCat denouncement thread and theories on what she should do to Jamie when she catches him.

Although I know it won't happen, my hope would be that she executes him like a common Frey.
However a lot of people on these forums are Jaime fans and I'd like to know why.

Pros:
Jaime killed Aerys and the Pyromancer.
Saved Brienne from the bear pit.

Cons:
Broke his vows to the Kingsgaurd - the punishment for treason is death.
Banged his sister
Created the devil spawn known as Joffrey
Banged the queen - more treason here.
His ambush in King's Landing led to the death of Jory and Ned's men as well as crippling Ned.
Fought for the Lannisters during the war of the five kings.
Bled the Riverlords and seiged Riverrun before the whispering wood.
Suffered a massive defeat at the Whispering wood (incompetent general)
Failed to defend other members of the royal family (Elia and children, he was still kingsgaurd)
Threw Bran out of a tower.
Failed to keep his word and return Arya and Sansa to Cat.
Imprisoned Edmure at the rock after promising to never wage war against the Tullys (Granted this was the peaceful alternative to storming the castle, so he gets off on a technicality)

Now a few witty comments, and a smile and everyone jumps to Cats a monster and Jaime should live happily ever after?

To paraphrase Stannis - a good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good

[Pellaeon]

You are totaly right, but ASOIAF isn't a just world so Jaime might get a free pass, and/or killing Lady Stoneheart. My personal thheorie is that he pierce her hearth with oathkeeper and the sword become Lightbringer

[Jolene Brown]

EgoistMusketeer, on 23 June 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Failed to keep his word and return Arya and Sansa to Cat.

I am a Jaime fan, but I can hardly take issue with your other points.  He has done a lot of terrible things.  However, failing to return Arya and Sansa to Cat is not one of them - it was completely impossible for him to do so, given that Cat died before he made it back to King's Landing, and both Arya and Sansa were already gone as well.  He has never been in a position to interact with either of them.  And it is clear that his desire to help Sansa now is sincere.  Nonetheless, Cat has good reason to want him dead given what he did to Bran alone, although she is in error about his supposed role in the Red Wedding (Roose Bolton is such a troublemaker!).

[Hombre_Lobo]

Jaime certainly did a lot of very rotten things. That said, his current arc seems to carry a theme of redemption. Also note, in AFfC Brienne's last chapter shows her being hanged for refusing to track down and kill Jaime. When s he surfaces in ADwD, because of that last bit it would appear that she had had a change of heart, however we are still very much in the dark as to how it came to be that she was released. I wouldn't discount the possibility of Sandor (presuming the tall gravedigger was, in fact, Sandor) having followed her and stirring up some trouble. I think there is more to this.

[Crown]

I hated Jaime during Thrones and Clash, and when he began his road to redemption in Storm and Feast I started to like him more. I don't agree with all the things I will say below, but it's a matter of perspective, from his point of view he did the right thing.

• Broke his vows to the Kingsgaurd - the punishment for treason is death. And saved the citizens of King's Landing.
  
• Banged his sister. One does not choose who to love, also it was normal when the Targaryens ruled Westeros.
  
• Created the devil spawn known as Joffrey. One does not choose the child he creates.
  
• Banged the queen - more treason here. He loves his sisters, and she happens to be the queen.
  
• His ambush in King's Landing led to the death of Jory and Ned's men as well as crippling Ned. His brother was taken, what would you do?
  
• Fought for the Lannisters during the war of the five kings. Because he IS a Lannister. If he fought for another family you'd state that he's a traitor to his family.
  
• Bled the Riverlords and seiged Riverrun before the whispering wood. Because he was at war. He simply did was he was ordered by his father.
  
• Suffered a massive defeat at the Whispering wood (incompetent general). Stannis suffered a massive defeat, Mance Rayder suffered a massive defeat, and the list goes on. Does that make him a bad person?
  
• Failed to defend other members of the royal family (Elia and children, he was still kingsgaurd). What would you have him do? Fight Gregor Clegane and his crooks?
  
• Threw Bran out of a tower. Yeah, that's just wrong.
  
• Failed to keep his word and return Arya and Sansa to Cat. Because the both of them were gone, he send Brienne to find them.
  
• Imprisoned Edmure at the rock after promising to never wage war against the Tullys (Granted this was the peaceful alternative to storming the castle, so he gets off on a technicality). He didn't wage war, he only imprisoned Edmure. Since there was still a war it was necessary.

A matter of perspective, it is.

Edited by Crown, 23 June 2012 - 03:15 PM.

[greygnarl]

Nobody likes the old Jaime. But since he left Cersei he's been pretty chill.

[The Last Reyne]

Its not so much that Jaime is great but that he is someone on the path to redemption. And Stannis is not one to talk as he seems to be falling into the abyss.

[Crown]

greygnarl, on 23 June 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Nobody likes the old Jaime. But since he left Cersei he's been pretty chill.

And after he lost his hand.

[Pellaeon]

Crown, on 23 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Broke his vows to the Kingsgaurd - the punishment for treason is death. And saved the citizens of King's Landing.

I give him that

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Banged his sister. One does not choose who to love, also it was normal when the Targaryens ruled Westeros.

You might be right

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Created the devil spawn known as Joffrey. One does not choose the child he creates.

But you are responsable for his education

Quote

Banged the queen - more treason here. He loves his sisters, and she happens to be the queen.

OK

Quote

His ambush in King's Landing led to the death of Jory and Ned's men as well as crippling Ned. His brother was taken, what would you do?

Maybe talk to the king or just talk to Ned Stark first, before you start the killing

Quote

Fought for the Lannisters during the war of the five kings. Because he IS a Lannister. If he fought for another family you'd state that he's a traitor to his family.

And a member of the KG, sworn to the king

Quote

Bled the Riverlords and seiged Riverrun before the whispering wood. Because he was at war. He simply did was he was ordered by his father.

Kingsguard

Quote

Suffered a massive defeat at the Whispering wood (incompetent general). Stannis suffered a massive defeat, Mance Rayder suffered a massive defeat, and the list goes on. Does that make him a bad person?

Not an actuall crime, yes

Quote

Failed to defend other members of the royal family (Elia and children, he was still kingsgaurd). What would you have him do? Fight Gregor Clegane and his crooks?

Yes, who would dare to lay hand on Tywins son, when he defend the royal family

[LOBROD]

as long as he stays away from Cersai i think he will be ok.

i just worried that stoneheart will not want to take into account all the personal growth he has done since trying to kill her son.

[Kittykatknits]

Pro: Hit Red Ronnet Connington
Pro: Helped out Pia and treated her with respect
Pro: Is starting to figure out that he has responsiblities as a father and attempted to comfort Tommen in KL
Pro: Recognizes that the KG needs reforming and is trying to make positive changes
Pro: Saved Brienne from being raped by the bloody mummers
Pro: Rescued his brother from prison (although that didn't end perfectly)
Pro: Realized that he was wrong WRT to the Tysha incident and came clean to his brother


I also consider killing the mad king to be his finest act. You also can't blame him for returning Sansa and Arya, they weren't there to do so.

I'm not calling the guy a saint by any means, he has done some pretty horrible stuff, but he's just like all the other characters in the books. He is a man who has done both good and bad acts.

[Jamie Lannister]

He is actually that great.

[Crown]

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

But you are responsable for his education

Robert and Cersei were responsible for his education, since they raised him. You can't blame Jaime for this, he's just his 'uncle'.

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Maybe talk to the king or just talk to Ned Stark first, before you start the killing

I agree with you here, however instead of going to Ned he should go to Robert or Tywin.

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

And a member of the KG, sworn to the king

Joffrey was king during the War of the Five Kings, and yeah, Joffrey is a Lannister. If he fought for Robb, Renly or Stannis he'd betray his king and his family.

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Kingsguard

His was fighting for the king, or the king's Hand (Tywin) if you prefer that.

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Yes, who would dare to lay hand on Tywins son, when he defend the royal family

Perhaps, but was he near Clegane and his boys when he murdered them? Could he actually have stopped them?

Edited by Crown, 23 June 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

I concede the Arya and Sansa part because I had forgotten that he returns to Kings Landing after both Red and Joff weddings.

[Pellaeon]

Crown, on 23 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Robert and Cersei were responsible for his education, since they raised him. You can't blame Jaime for this, he's just his 'uncle'.

even as "uncle" he could had influence Joffrey, he only had his fun with Cersei but never show any responsibility for his brood until Joffrey die

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Joffrey was king during the War of the Five Kings, and yeah, Joffrey is a Lannister. If he fought for Robb, Renly or Stannis he'd betray his king and his family.

Not at the begin, when he join forces with Tywin and siege Riverrun

Quote

Perhaps, but was he near Clegane and his boys when he murdered them? Could he actually have stopped them?

He could had at least try

Edited by Pellaeon, 23 June 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Crown, on 23 June 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Perhaps, but was he near Clegane and his boys when he murdered them? Could he actually have stopped them?

I assume extremely near to them, He was in the throne room while they were scaling Maegors holdfast.

[Crown]

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

even as "uncle" he could had influence Joffrey, he only had his fun with Cersei but never show any responsibility for his brood until Joffrey die.

I agree, but I think his education is also genetic thing, since Myrcella and Tommen are sweet children with the same wrong education. Got to blame the Gods for Joffrey too.

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Not at the begin, when he join forces with Tywin and siege Riverrun

He fled King's Landing right before Robert's hunt and death. Did he siege Riverrun when Robert was still king and Ned was still Hand?

Pellaeon, on 23 June 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

He could had at least try

We don't have concrete information on this, so it's hard to blame him for something he couldn't have changed anyway.

EDIT: @EgoistMusketeer, can you really blame him? Who would expect someone to do something horrible like that?

Oh god, It's starting to look like I idolize Jaime. He's still an asshole.

Edited by Crown, 23 June 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Serie]

to me old Jaime was like "I'm handsome and good with the sword so why bother use my brains"? then he lost the hand and had to put his brains to work. That was the moment he began to look a bit more interesting.
So I neither like him nor dislike him overall. I believe he did some terrible things out of "stupidity" and that's not an excuse. But now he's a bit more fun to read about. I won't miss him if he dies though. Sorry.

[ElizaMartell]

It goes without saying. Anyone who thinks Jamie is going through some 'redemption' arc are misunderstanding a few things about our poor crippled Simba.

[Hombre_Lobo]

EgoistMusketeer, on 23 June 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I assume extremely near to them, He was in the throne room while they were scaling Maegors holdfast.

There is more than one room in the holdfast, it may have been that he was unaware that Gregor and Lorch were there until it was too late.