64 replies to this topic

[Quiet Isle]

Gwendolyn, on 19 July 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think he's really dead, why should he still be alive? I don't really think he is and there is no reason that he should be, there is no reason we do need him for the future storyline I think.

  He might be one of THE SEVEN that stand against the OTHERS at the end.

[Quiet Isle]

Robb_, on 23 June 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

Thanks for that... I need to go back a few pages and give that bit about the gravedigger a quick reread then.

  while you do that, look at this:  http://en.wikipedia....Knight_of_faith    
Knight of faith


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The knight of faith is an individual who has placed complete faith in himself and in God and can act freely and independently from the world. The 19th century Danish philosopherSøren Kierkegaard vicariously discusses the knight of faith in several of his pseudonymic works, with the most in-depth and detailed critique exposited in Fear and Trembling.
Johannes de Silentio, Kierkegaard's pseudonymous author of Fear and Trembling, argues that the knight of faith is the paradox, is the individual, absolutely nothing but the individual, without connections or pretensions. The knight of faith is the individual who is able to gracefully embrace life: Kierkegaard put it this way in Either/Or, "When around one everything has become silent, solemn as a clear, starlit night, when the soul comes to be alone in the whole world, then before one there appears, not an extraordinary human being, but the eternal power itself, then the heavens open, and the I chooses itself or, more correctly, receives itself. Then the personality receives the accolade of knighthood that ennobles it for an eternity.

[Quiet Isle]

Jonaerys, on 23 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Robb_, Although this very well may be the case that Sandor is dead there are rumors that speculate Sandor Clegane is still alive and it was only "The Hound" that was killed. Meaning that "The Hound" was only an evil  part of Sandor's persona and it was killed and now Sandor is to become more of a "good" character. It's just speculation at this point since no one really saw him die and his death rumors are only here say. Needless to say if Sandor really is dead many fans will be disappointed on how GRRM chose to kill him off. Here's to hoping Sandor lives * fingers crossed*

  Not only THAT, if you research it, you will find that GRRM, who NOTORIOUSLY uses myth and philosophy from all avenues, AND PLENTY OF NORSE myth (SEE RAGNAROK AND FIMBULWINTER) , is using the following KNIGHT OF FAITH of Kierkegard: Kierkegaard's Silentio contrasts the knight of faith with the other two, knight of infinite resignation (infinity) and the aesthetic "slaves." Kierkegaard uses the story of a princess and a man who is madly in love with her, but circumstances are that the man will never be able to realize this love in this world ever. A person who is in the aesthetic stage would abandon this love, crying out for example, "Such a love is foolishness. The rich brewer's widow is a match fully as good and respectable." A person who is in the ethical stage would not give up on this love, but would be resigned to the fact that they will never be together in this world. The knight of infinity may or may not believe that they may be together in another life or in spirit, but what's important is that the knight of infinity gives up on their being together in this world; in this life.
The knight of faith feels what the knight of infinity feels, but with exception that the knight of faith believes that in this world; in this life, they will be together. The knight of faith would say "I believe nevertheless that I shall get her, in virtue, that is, of the absurd, in virtue of the fact that with God all things are possible." This double movement is paradoxical because on the one hand it is humanly impossible that they would be together, but on the other hand the knight of faith is willing to believe that they will be together through divine possibility.

[SulliedOne]

RAGNAROK, on 17 September 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Not only THAT, if you research it, you will find that GRRM, who NOTORIOUSLY uses myth and philosophy from all avenues, AND PLENTY OF NORSE myth (SEE RAGNAROK AND FIMBULWINTER) , is using the following KNIGHT OF FAITH of Kierkegard: Kierkegaard's Silentio contrasts the knight of faith with the other two, knight of infinite resignation (infinity) and the aesthetic "slaves." Kierkegaard uses the story of a princess and a man who is madly in love with her, but circumstances are that the man will never be able to realize this love in this world ever. A person who is in the aesthetic stage would abandon this love, crying out for example, "Such a love is foolishness. The rich brewer's widow is a match fully as good and respectable." A person who is in the ethical stage would not give up on this love, but would be resigned to the fact that they will never be together in this world. The knight of infinity may or may not believe that they may be together in another life or in spirit, but what's important is that the knight of infinity gives up on their being together in this world; in this life.
The knight of faith feels what the knight of infinity feels, but with exception that the knight of faith believes that in this world; in this life, they will be together. The knight of faith would say "I believe nevertheless that I shall get her, in virtue, that is, of the absurd, in virtue of the fact that with God all things are possible." This double movement is paradoxical because on the one hand it is humanly impossible that they would be together, but on the other hand the knight of faith is willing to believe that they will be together through divine possibility.

Yikes - and I thought I would do some "quick reading" to flesh out the HBO series a little bit.  4,000 pages later, and most of the plot is STILL a mystery to me!

[KingStannis4thethrone]

I hope that the Hound isn't dead! Its clear that he wasn't all bad and if he does appear again
in this story we might see him do some good deed towards the end as some sort of champion for Sansa.
Arya couldn't bring herself to put and end to his life before she left him even though he appeared in great pain and looked like he was dying.
It would be great if Sandor could kill his brother the nasty Mountain but that particular dog is currently missing a head which is on its way to Dorne on a plate!

[Houndbird]

Sandor is alive as the gravedigger. Really hope he leaves the QI at some point and Sansa's prayer is answered and his rage is gentled. He really deserves some good in his life..He has a lot do good in him although masked by the rage. I don't want him to become a kinslayer though. Ironic that the Elder Brother who is supposedly helping is is good compared to his own evil Elder Brother. Hope GRRM brings him back in TWOW. The hound is dead but here's hoping Sandor retains his wit and humour.

[tom_saxon]

On one note, I remember watching an interview with GRRM and he was asked what suprised him most about what his fans liked or disliked.  His immediate response was that he thought it odd that so many people were so into the "love interest" between Sandor and Sansa; the rest of the his response here indicated that he felt Sandor to be cursory character of no great import.  Maybe that was just GRRM not revealing his intents, but.....

On another note, Sandor makes me think of "The Stranger" aspect of the seven faced god.  Not just due to the name of his horse, but also his very weirdness, and his possible role as gravedigger.  A silent brother, perhaps not, a fighting priest of the Stranger, perhaps, yes.

[OllieOwl]

He left very many small clues if it proves that it isn't Sandor. Who else could it be? He didn't die on page so it would be nice if he is teh gravedigger, which seems fairly reasonable.

[Elyrica]

It would be a nice turn of events if Sandor Clegane suddenly comes back in full vitality.

[wearethewatchersonthewall]

Jonaerys, on 23 June 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Robb_, Although this very well may be the case that Sandor is dead there are rumors that speculate Sandor Clegane is still alive and it was only "The Hound" that was killed. Meaning that "The Hound" was only an evil  part of Sandor's persona and it was killed and now Sandor is to become more of a "good" character. It's just speculation at this point since no one really saw him die and his death rumors are only here say. Needless to say if Sandor really is dead many fans will be disappointed on how GRRM chose to kill him off. Here's to hoping Sandor lives * fingers crossed*

I'll drink to that

[wearethewatchersonthewall]

EgoistMusketeer, on 07 July 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Monk Sandor is going to be the faiths second champion when they discover Robert Strong's identity. It is known.

If he did this wouldn't he instantly be executed for desertion???

[Arya Mormont]

I think he's clearly still alive.  

The Elder Brother himself said he died in the river before beginning his time in silence.  The language was similar to his discussion of the Hounds death.  

Plus, the pain of rebirth/resurrection/new beginnings is pretty much the central theme in the book.

[Cersay Goldenlocks]

Rh'llor is not done with him.

Interesting though, Sandor mock the gods but the Lord of light Rh'llor spared him and he also found refuge under the protection of the holy men serving the Faith of the Seven in the Quiet Isle.

The gods care for Sandor, I guess. They're giving him a chance that's why they just can't let him die without redeeming him.

Edited by Queen Maleficent, 20 December 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[wearethewatchersonthewall]

Sandor lives, I thought this was more widely beleived than r plus l = j.... anyway just a thought if he were to represent the faith in ceric's trial, would he then himself be tried for treason and desertion, or will the faith protect him? also if learns that gregoe lives will the hound in him be reborn?? so many questions.

[Trident full of Dogs]

Houndbird, on 07 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Sandor is alive as the gravedigger. Really hope he leaves the QI at some point and Sansa's prayer is answered and his rage is gentled. He really deserves some good in his life..He has a lot do good in him although masked by the rage. I don't want him to become a kinslayer though. Ironic that the Elder Brother who is supposedly helping is is good compared to his own evil Elder Brother. Hope GRRM brings him back in TWOW. The hound is dead but here's hoping Sandor retains his wit and humour.

[Trident full of Dogs]

Houndbird, on 07 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Sandor is alive as the gravedigger. Really hope he leaves the QI at some point and Sansa's prayer is answered and his rage is gentled. He really deserves some good in his life..He has a lot do good in him although masked by the rage. I don't want him to become a kinslayer though. Ironic that the Elder Brother who is supposedly helping is is good compared to his own evil Elder Brother. Hope GRRM brings him back in TWOW. The hound is dead but here's hoping Sandor retains his wit and humour.

Agreed! If he really is the gravedigger I hope he'll still be.fun to read as he was before. BUT he might be very different from the Hound it might be possible he wont talk at all (silence vow) or wont be a good fighter anymore since he is now lame and has a badly burnt arm.
Also I would be thrilled if he paired up with his little bird, but he mihgt have taken a chastity vow for al we know.
He might even turn out to be a major bore like Lancel did.
Anyway the main reason for me to keep waiting for the books is cause I hope to find out the Hound is alive!!!!

[Le Cygne]

If he's just at peace, and not going to play a further role in the story, there would be no point to all of this:

- Sandor's frequent references to Sansa (ASOS)
- Sansa's frequent references to Sandor (ASOS and AFFC)
- all the Sandor references in Brienne's chapter on the Quiet Isle (AFFC)
- all the Sandor references in other POV chapters (through AFFC)

The first and second, why not have both thinking about someone or something else instead, neither is present when this is going on with the other.  The third, if the only purpose this served was to show he was dead, or at peace, or content to stay there (and it doesn't really do that, see below), could just as easily be conveyed in a single sentence uttered by a single character anywhere at all.  The fourth, again, makes no sense.

Submitted for your perusal, from the chapter in question (AFFC, Brienne VI):

Quote

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. As he flung a spadeful of the stony soil over one shoulder, some chanced to spatter against their feet. “Be more watchful there,” chided Brother Narbert. “Septon Meribald might have gotten a mouthful of dirt.” The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

“A novice,” explained Narbert...

By the time the readings were completed, the last of the food had been cleared away by the novices whose task it was to serve. Most were boys near Podrick’s age, or younger, but there were grown men as well, amongst them the big gravedigger they had encountered on the hill, who walked with the awkward lurching gait of one half-crippled.

And this:

Quote

Ser Hyle gave the big horse an admiring look as he was handing his reins to Brother Gillam. “A handsome beast.” Brother Narbert sighed. “The Seven send us blessings, and the Seven send us trials. Handsome he may be, but Driftwood was surely whelped in hell.  When we sought to harness him to a plow he kicked Brother Rawney and broke his shinbone in two places. We had hoped gelding might improve the beast’s ill temper, but . . . Brother Gillam, will you show them?”

Brother Gillam lowered his cowl. Underneath he had a mop of blond hair, a tonsured scalp, and a bloodstained bandage where he should have had an ear.

Podrick gasped. “The horse bit off your ear?”

Gillam nodded, and covered his head again...

“That was his warhorse, Stranger. A blasphemous name. We prefer to call him Driftwood, as he was found beside the river. I fear he has his former master’s nature.”

Edited by Le Cygne, 31 December 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[JaTyAdo]

He's alive.. I don't know why everybody still doubts it.. but I did doubt it at first too (thinking it may be just some wishful thinking of the Hound's and SanSan's fan) until many people pointed out the evidences.. But out of all the evidences, Stranger was the one who stood out for me... From what I remembered reading in AFFC, the elder brother said that after he healed him , he died in his arms, in the trident(was that the place?)... w/c is totally weird bec. they could have just left Stranger there, knowing how wild that animal is and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't risk their life for one horse, they could just have other horses.. but instead they got Stranger.. how the hell were they able to take Stranger there? Sandor is obviously the answer... which means the whole thing abt. the hound dying in his arms is a lie(if u took the word 'die' literally).. but there's another option, he might have died where the elder brother took him but if that happened, he could have just told Brienne.. there's no point in lying abt it....

Gwendolyn, on 19 July 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think he's really dead, why should he still be alive? I don't really think he is and there is no reason that he should be, there is no reason we do need him for the future storyline I think.

Here's your answer:

juhjoana, on 18 July 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

He can't be dead... GRRM had a lot of work with the un-kiss and Sandor/Sansa relathionship... and there's also the zoombie gregor... no, he must be alive

[~Shiera Seastar~]

wearethewatchersonthewall, on 10 December 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

If he did this wouldn't he instantly be executed for desertion???

In Sandor's defense, he did not desert - he quit his job, but his employers did not approve his resignation. He's tired of being kicked and sent to die fighting to keep the Lannisters alive - good reasons to quit but not acceptable to the Lannister's pride. Now, he's been called a deserter for making the right decision and his precious head is the costly price. Yup, life is awful for Sandor Clegane. Poor Hound . In return, I hope he'll stand up as a witness for the Lannister's crimes (surely there are many) if the Faith allows him since he's been accepted and (I think) forgiven, instead of fighting UnGregor. I think he knows about the twincest and the parentage of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen (maybe Cersei's fornication, too, 'coz he's been the Dog of the family since he was 12y/o). If he reveals those dirty secrets, he'll be the downfall of the Lannisters. The Faith should interview this guy. To keep his head on his shoulders, Sandor needs a lot of confession and revelation, then that desertion accusation thing will be dismissed.

Edited by Brandonarya Stark, 05 January 2013 - 11:22 PM.

[Thor The Andal]

I just got done with the chapter where Brienne finds out about the Hound's fate from the elder brother. I don't really see what the mystery is here, unless he was lying about trying to save Sandor before he died? Also, Stranger was in the stables. I thought this explanation put a stamp on the Hound's fate just in case the reader was wondering if he died shortly after Arya left him, or if somehow he miraculously escaped with his life. Not sure if there is more about this later in the book that I haven't read yet, but that last Brienne chapter sure seems to put all of the mystery to an end.