102 replies to this topic

[The Last Direwolf]

Radiant, on 24 June 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Jeyne? No, I would call it horrifying, but not tragic.

What?! A little girl who's family was murdered and then she was married off to a psychopathic murderer who then proceeded to rape her on a regular basis just because she was friends with Sansa Stark isn't tragic?

[Apple Martini]

Radiant, on 24 June 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Elia wasn't tragic. Her death was abrupt and brutal, but she had a good husband and a lots of company.

She entered into a congenial but ultimately loveless marriage (unlike Ned and Catelyn's), nearly died having two children, was publicly humiliated when her husband chose to honor the woman he actually loved, was never given the chance to find someone that she actually loved, was held hostage by madman knowing that her husband and family members were dead/dying/in danger, had her son literally snatched away from her, saw his brutal murder, and was then raped and brutally murdered by her son's killer. In hindsight, the only people eager to avenge her are her own family members, and she has jealous JonCon insulting her and Barristan calling her a kitchen drab.

I'm sorry, what about that isn't tragic enough for you?

Quote

Jeyne? No, I would call it horrifying, but not tragic.

I think we must have differing opinions on what tragic means.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 June 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[Dearmad Mactíre]

Totally agree with everything. Although I would like to throw Sansa into the pot. More specifically pre-escape, although still relevant later on. She was raised 'a lady,' enjoying and possibly believing the chivalrous stories she loved. I think she believes it is almost her 'duty' to be rescued by a Knight, which is tragic. I got the impression she 'needed' to be saved, as opposed to Arya who instigated her own escape, several times.

[Apple Martini]

The Last Direwolf, on 24 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I know  that her children were killed in front of her and then she was raped and killed, but is that really so different to what Catelyn experienced at the Red Wedding, or what Theon went through at the Dreadfort?

Like I said before, what I think elevates Elia's tragedy is her ultimate blamelessness in the whole matter. Nothing that happened was her fault, her choice or her doing, and yet she suffered grievously for it. Same can't be said for Catelyn and especially not for Theon.

[The Last Direwolf]

Apple Martini, on 24 June 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Like I said before, what I think elevates Elia's tragedy is her ultimate blamelessness in the whole matter. Nothing that happened was her fault, her choice or her doing, and yet she suffered grievously for it. Same can't be said for Catelyn and especially not for Theon.

So Catelyn somehow caused Robb to marry Jeyne Westerling and fuck up his alliances? Or she somehow caused Arya's and Sansa's imprisonment? Or the ironborn invasion? Can't say I see your point there...

[PatrickStormborn]

Radiant, on 24 June 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Robert
Became a King
Stannis
He never asked for any of this.
Willas
Crippled at an early age.
Tyrion
Discriminations agaisnt his stature, Tysha, the flak he gets just for being a Lannister is spalling.
Aemon
The sacrifices he made. Watching your family die out, the last scions being ran out of the continent, and unable to do anything because of his vows.
Victarion
Lived his life being constantly tortured by Euron, a Ramsay-level Sadist.
Barristan
Refer to DirePanda's post.
The Ned
Spent his life living by his honor, the last 14 or so years in regret and sorrow, breaking his honor to save his family, and ultimately paying the final price, knowing that his children were doomed.
Tormund's Member
It got bitten in half b a bald bear. Enough said.
Davos
Need I say more? His fingers, his sons burned, he's spent every waking moment after that wondering why his gods took his strong sons and not him.
Kevan
He was always in his brother's shadow. His kids were killed, he descended into grief, and when he finally got his chance at calling the shots, Varys comes and Tywins him. The most tragic part is that Kevan was killed in the same manner as his brother.

Willas, Tyrion, Aemon, Ned and Davos come close to being tragic, I agree, but as for the others... no. No.

Robert - beat his wife and child, and also raped his wife. CHOSE to become king.
Stannis - what exactly makes him tragic?
Victarion - beat his wife to death. Not tragic.
Barristan - again, not tragic. He wanted honour and glory.
Kevan - erm, not tragic at all. Re-read Cersei's walk of shame if you think he's a tragic character.

ETA:

Apple Martini, on 24 June 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Apart from "Peasant #452," I have to say it's either Elia Martell or Jeyne Poole.

ETA: I think what separates them from someone like, say, Theon, is that neither of them did anything to justify or cause what happened to them. Theon's tragedy, severe though it is, is still an extension of his own choices.

And poor Rhaenys and Aegon, too. Rhaenys' demise especially is hard to think about.

Theon being taken away from his family and then having a conflict of identity is nothing to do with his own choices. He also didn't do anything worth punishing, except killing the Miller's boys (his only real crime), but Ramsay himself was part of that so it's a strange thing to punish him for. Betraying the Starks does not justify getting flayed.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 24 June 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Apple Martini]

The Last Direwolf, on 24 June 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

So Catelyn somehow caused Robb to marry Jeyne Westerling and fuck up his alliances? Or she somehow caused Arya's and Sansa's imprisonment? Or the ironborn invasion? Can't say I see your point there...

Catelyn encouraged Ned to go to King's Landing when he didn't want to. She kidnapped Tyrion and helped set off the conflict in the Riverlands. She negotiated the marriage alliance with the Freys, although, yes, it was Robb's choice to accept it. She freed Jaime Lannister.

I like Catelyn, don't get me wrong. But she has plenty of culpability in all of this. Elia didn't.

[The Last Direwolf]

Apple Martini, on 24 June 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Catelyn encouraged Ned to go to King's Landing when he didn't want to. She kidnapped Tyrion and helped set off the conflict in the Riverlands. She negotiated the marriage alliance with the Freys, although, yes, it was Robb's choice to accept it. She freed Jaime Lannister.

I like Catelyn, don't get me wrong. But she has plenty of culpability in all of this. Elia didn't.

Fair point. But all the stuff that she did, with the exception of kidnapping Tyrion and freeing Jaime, was seemingly the right thing to do at the time. But I can see that she can take some tiny bit of blame whilst Elia doesn't have any.

[Apple Martini]

PatrickStormborn, on 24 June 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Theon being taken away from his family and then having a conflict of identity is nothing to do with his own choices. He also didn't do anything worth punishing, except killing the Miller's boys (his only real crime), but Ramsay himself was part of that so it's a strange thing to punish him for. Betraying the Starks does not justify getting flayed.

This is hilarious to me, because usually you're the one giving me grief for pitying Theon despite what he's done, when I don't give any such sympathy to Dany. Perhaps you're just a contrary for its own sake where I'm concerned?

Theon doesn't deserve what happened to him, no. But UNLIKE ELIA, as I keep saying over and over, at least some of it DID come down to his own choices and how he chose to behave.

[Evamitchelle]

Well it depends on whether you follow the ancient Greek definition of "tragic" where it means something like "bringing upon your doom because of your flaws/mistakes", in which Theon would fit the bill admirably, and Catelyn quite well too. But if you're more keen on the "heartbreaking" definition then I'd say Elia, Jeyne Poole, Lollys and a lot of smallfolk are better nominees.

And I'm baffled at the person who suggested Victarion. The whole "Boo hoo my wife made me beat her to death because she was raped by my brother" spiel gets exactly zero sympathy from me.

[the Scorpion Knight]

PatrickStormborn, on 24 June 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Victarion - beat his wife to death. Not tragic.

people tend to forget he HAD no choice in that

[PatrickStormborn]

Apple Martini, on 24 June 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is hilarious to me, because usually you're the one giving me grief for pitying Theon despite what he's done, when I don't give any such sympathy to Dany. Perhaps you're just a contrary for its own sake where I'm concerned?

Theon doesn't deserve what happened to him, no. But UNLIKE ELIA, as I keep saying over and over, at least some of it DID come down to his own choices and how he chose to behave.

The difference is that I give sympathy to all deserving characters -- even Theon, one of the few POV characters I don't like in some way.

I understand what you're saying, but Theon's tragedy, to me, isn't just about what Ramsay did to him -- it's about the fact that he was torn away from his home and had to choose between two families. In addition, what Ramsay did to him wasn't because of what he did. I don't think Ramsay was torturing him because he betrayed the Starks or for any of his other crimes.

Also I think it's fair to call Theon and Cat tragic characters. The definition of a tragic character (in a Greek Tragedy) involves a choice they've made, usually as the result of a character flaw. The definition of "tragic", meanwhile, is much closer to Jeyne Poole and Elia Martell.

ETA:

the Scorpion Knight, on 24 June 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

people tend to forget he HAD no choice in that

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 24 June 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[lakin1013]

Of the current living characters (thus eliminating Catelyn Stark) I think Arya and Theon are the two most tragic.

Arya was a young lady brought up in advantaged circumstances.  She had education, wealth, a sturdy character, and a loving family.  Currently she has sunk to being an assassin, denying herself, and becoming faceless. Does Arya make it home, and does she make intact?

Theon has faced struggle and sufferning but due to the nature of his own weak character, rather than rise above his situation, he sunk to the lowest level.  Then he faced daily torture and humiliation at the whim of his captor.  Now we are at a precipice of whether he successfully does one thing right.

[TepidHands]

Brienne. Can't be what she is made to be. Loves a king, watches him die, and some folks think she did it. Winds up with Jamie, who mocks her, but later saves her. Winds up being hanged by the zombie of the woman she vowed to serve.

(Plus, GRRM tells us in almost EVERY reference how huge, ugly and ungainly she is. One of the few things that annoys me throughout).

[Teal'c]

Apple Martini, on 24 June 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Catelyn encouraged Ned to go to King's Landing when he didn't want to. She kidnapped Tyrion and helped set off the conflict in the Riverlands. She negotiated the marriage alliance with the Freys, although, yes, it was Robb's choice to accept it. She freed Jaime Lannister.

I like Catelyn, don't get me wrong. But she has plenty of culpability in all of this. Elia didn't.

In the classic definition of tragedy, the tragic hero does bear responsibilty for the bad which befalls him or her, through some flaw or mistake.

And as you pointed out already, Theon also bears responsibility for what happens to him, so he fits this definition as well.

Edited by Teal'c, 24 June 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[Teal'c]

the Scorpion Knight, on 24 June 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

people tend to forget he HAD no choice in that

I fail to see how anyone forced his hand to beat his wife to death. I'm calling you out to explain this.

[Winter's Knight]

the Scorpion Knight, on 24 June 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

people tend to forget he HAD no choice in that

Contrary to popular belief, it is shockingly easy to not beat your spouse to death.

[Mladen]

1. Elia Martell
2. Theon Greyjoy
3. Robb Stark
4. Jaime Lannister
5. Catelyn Stark

[Lady Faceless]

Theon - He was taken away from his family as a hostage and raised by the Starks, yet he was constantly reminded that he would never be one of them, though when he finally goes back to Pyke he is shunned by his actual family by being too "Stark". Then he's forced to choose between his father and his best friend, chooses wrong, and goes on to make even more mistakes until he ends up in the hands of the Bastard of Bolton. A couple of lost fingers and toes and an identity crisis later, he ends up in chains awaiting Stannis's bonfire.
Ned - He loses his father, brother, and sister to war. He stains honor by taking on Jon as his bastard and has to lie about it for 14 years. He marries his brother's leftovers and not Ashara. He abandons his honor again to protect his family but loses his head regardless with all of his lies and regrets still weighted on his shoulders.
Sandor - Horrible brother, melted face, dead sister and father who were probably killed by Gregor, broken dreams of knighthood, being seen as a monster, etc... Not to mention he had to deal with Joffery for 12/13 years.

[LordBloodraven]

Robb Stark is the epitome of the tragic hero in ASOIAF.

For Theon, we'll have to see where his arc is going