100 replies to this topic

[Octavio Malibaires]

What is this obsession with redemption? Some stories are not about redeeming, or learning a lesson, or admiting one's wrongdoings. I'm afraid to tell you that probably (and hopefuly) Jaime will not get his "redemption" fulfilled.

[Sevumar]

I'm not sure that Jaime can be "redeemed." He can be transformed and he can come to realize his prior actions were wrong, but most of the things he's done have permanent, irrevocable consequences. There is nothing he can do to make Bran walk again, for instance. He cannot take back his conspiracy with his sister to deny Robert Baratheon legitimate heirs. His only choice is to keep moving forward in a way that shows acceptance of responsibility for his past and a commitment to do better in the future.

Jaime Lannister is a man of extremes. Most of his vile acts and his laudable ones have been high stakes moves. But it is not possible to keep a karmic balance sheet and declare him neutral or positive at the end of his life.

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Mladen, on 24 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Redemption doesn`t mean that he has to fix every single mistake of his life, just to fix those he can by not hurting anyone

1. I don`t believe he will ever hurt Myrcella and Tommen like that by admitting they are bastards born out of incest. Those are his children, he wouldn`t take everything from them
2. Taking black is one posssibility, but I would rather see him in white cloak protecting Targaryens, and by that, paying his Lannister debt
3. Unfortunately, I can`t see how would he redeem for pushing Bran off that window. Alas, that hand was cut off, so maybe crimes done by that hand are officially paid.
4. Die peacfully.

I like Jaime, because his evolution, just like Sansa`s has been amazing...I like characters that are utterly changed, by the end of the books. Nothing can be same, but he sure isn`t man we all thought he was.

Protect Targaryens ? Like any sane Targ would allow themselves to be protected by someone who stabbed previous Targaryen king in the back? I know he had a damn good reason to kill Aerys, but that doesn't make him more trustworthy.

[Thendel]

A few things he could do, some of which can't be accomplished together:

• Assume his responsibilities as head of the family by renouncing the Lannister claim to the throne, remove Cersei from the Game one way or another, retire to Casterly Rock with Tommen and Myrcella, provide financial compensation to anyone who suffered during TWot5K, and serve as a loyal high lord to whoever rules the kingdoms.
  
• Stay true to his knightly vows of protecting the innocent and serving the just, renouncing any claim to the Rock.
  
• Prevent another disaster / save someone important in the fight against the Others, possibly losing his life in the proces.
  
• Take the black AND do no. 3.
  
• In general, do good deeds and avoid doing bad deeds.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Thendel, on 24 June 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

In general, do good deeds and avoid doing bad deeds.

Wow! is it really that easy?

[LuisDantas]

I'm of two minds about this.

I don't know that it is even possible for Jaime to really redeem himself for what he did to Bran or for his passive yet enormous role in originating the War of the Five Kings.

There is also the fact that Jaime is so used to being praised for what he did not do and reviled for what was in fact the virtuous thing to do that it is questionable if it is even a good thing for him to seek redemption.  He is still in a fairly confortable position, after all.  Some action such as revealing to be Tommen's father may well turn out to be prejudicial when push comes to shove.

That said, his efforts at doing the right thing tend to be overvalued.  His main personal, voluntary "sacrifice" so far has been handing Oathkeeper to Brienne.  While there is little doubt that he has become wiser and more respectable, there is a lot of ambiguity on how far he is willing (or allowed) to go in becoming a better person.

In my opinion, Jaime's path is not so much one of redemption as one of becoming a mature, adult person.  He is leaving behind the sick learnings he got from Tywin, Aerys II and Cersei and approaching the status of a fully responsible and functional human being.  Redemption as such is a secondary goal, not too closely related.

And if his rationalizations about his duty to "his King" (Tommen) prevailing over his promise to Catelyn when he dealt with Brynden Tully are any indication, Jaime simply isn't very good at being a responsible adult yet, although he is far, so very far from a lost cause as well.

[TheFlayedMan]

I would really love to see Jaime join the Night's Watch.

[Ravenhair]

I'm amazed at how many people want Jaime to compensate everyone who lost family and/or suffered in the War of the Five Kings.  Do you feel that Robert Baratheon should have done the same for Robert's Rebellion, and if Rhaegar  had lived, would he owe everyone in the Seven Kingdoms who lost family or suffered?  By this rationat, do the Greyjoys also owe compensation to all the people injured and/or who suffered a family loss during the Greyjoy Rebellion?

As for telling Tommen and Myrcella the truth about their parentage, it would destroy what they know of themselves, make them bastards, and nullify their good marriage matches.  Why make the children suffer?  

The only question is what will happen if anything between Jaime and Bran.  I still believe Jaime is a Byronic hero, and I understand why he did what he did with regard to Bran (though I don't necessarily agree with it).  However, Bran's life has been so horribly altered--no longer able to walk/ride, no longer able to fulfill his dream of being a knight, most likely never being able to have sex or father children.  Will GRRM have Jaime and Bran meet for any redemption purposes?  Or was the loss of his sword hand the end of that particular redemption?

[Bouda]

Winter, on 24 June 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Go back to KL and stand by his sister.

So he should abandon his quest to save an innocent little girl who he swore to return in favor of returning to KL, where he would be of questionable usefulness and help his sister who has continually lied to/mistreated/cheated on him somehow be exonerated of all of the charges that she is in fact guilty of? Can you explain your thinking?

[Mladen]

Princess_of_Sunspear, on 24 June 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Protect Targaryens ? Like any sane Targ would allow themselves to be protected by someone who stabbed previous Targaryen king in the back? I know he had a damn good reason to kill Aerys, but that doesn't make him more trustworthy.

I know we all are on high horse here, but can you imagine the man talking to kill your family and burn half a million people in the city. I believe in honor, and I believe that Jaime did what he thought was right, unlike his father with murdering  Elia and Rhaenys. And remember one thing: Lannister always pays his debts. Jaime has some debts to pay, and Targaryens are on top of the list of people who are demanding a payback.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

My attempt at a Jaime Lannister repayment plan:

1. Fulfill his oath -- the oath he owes his freedom to -- by refusing to take up arms against the Starks or Tullys and finding Sansa and Arya and taking them somewhere safe.
2. Have some part in removing Cersei from power (power at King's Landing or Casterly Rock).
3. Have some part in making Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock. If possible, admit that Tommen and Myrcella are illegitimate while putting them under Tyrion's protection.
4. Find a way to help or save Bran .. to do something for Bran. If possible, sacrifice himself for Bran.
5. All these conditions being met or unable to be met, take the black or die.

[Winter's Knight]

Bouda, on 24 June 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

So he should abandon his quest to save an innocent little girl who he swore to return in favor of returning to KL, where he would be of questionable usefulness and help his sister who has continually lied to/mistreated/cheated on him somehow be exonerated of all of the charges that she is in fact guilty of? Can you explain your thinking?

He isn't hunting for Sansa, Brienne is.

And sure: Jaime claims to have loved Cersei-she bore his children and risked treason for him. I find it difficult to stomach that he left her to die when he knows that he is every bit as guilty as she is.

[Hear Me Roar!]

I've seen Ramsay Bolton better received than Jaime Lannister is in some of the posts in this thread. Pretty sick.

Jaime Lannister is fine the way he is. I hope he stays on the path of not being a ridiculous, insufferable goody two shoes like Ned Stark but still tries to do the right thing. I also hope his arc is ultimately satisfying. I want him alive, or at least to interact with Tyrion again. The least defensible thing Jaime has done is throw Bran from a window, and even that you can concoct an argument that he was trying to save his family from ruin with that act (yes, we know, if he hadn't been sleeping with Cersei in the first place it wouldn't have been necessary, blah blah blah).

[Sevumar]

Winter, on 24 June 2012 - 02:47 PM, said:

And sure: Jaime claims to have loved Cersei-she bore his children and risked treason for him. I find it difficult to stomach that he left her to die when he knows that he is every bit as guilty as she is.

I can't fault Jaime for not dropping everything to save Cersei from the pit she largely dug herself, especially after the cruelty with which she treated Jaime during his last days in King's Landing. She doesn't have a right to expect him to forgive all and come running back to defend her.

[Budj]

I think the only way he can repay Bran is if he somehow "finds the old gods" and becomes Brans errand boy (epic errands, hopefully), but I doubt that will actually happen.

[The Frosted King]

Ravenhair, on 24 June 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

I'm amazed at how many people want Jaime to compensate everyone who lost family and/or suffered in the War of the Five Kings.  Do you feel that Robert Baratheon should have done the same for Robert's Rebellion, and if Rhaegar  had lived, would he owe everyone in the Seven Kingdoms who lost family or suffered?  By this rationat, do the Greyjoys also owe compensation to all the people injured and/or who suffered a family loss during the Greyjoy Rebellion?

As for telling Tommen and Myrcella the truth about their parentage, it would destroy what they know of themselves, make them bastards, and nullify their good marriage matches.  Why make the children suffer?  

The only question is what will happen if anything between Jaime and Bran.  I still believe Jaime is a Byronic hero, and I understand why he did what he did with regard to Bran (though I don't necessarily agree with it).  However, Bran's life has been so horribly altered--no longer able to walk/ride, no longer able to fulfill his dream of being a knight, most likely never being able to have sex or father children.  Will GRRM have Jaime and Bran meet for any redemption purposes?  Or was the loss of his sword hand the end of that particular redemption?

It might be the only thing that could save Tommen or Myrcella.

Stannis gains the throne, they die.
Aegon gains the throne...Connington sees to their deaths.
Dany gains the throne...chances are they die.

Jaime admits they're born of incestous treason, they are removed from the line, and no longer important. It could be, that the advisement Jaime thought for Sansa(marry an innkeep and pray no knight ever comes for her and her children) are the salvation of Tommen and Myrcella.

And just as Jaime said the hand of Tywin moves from beyond the grave, so to can that be applied to HIS children.
Their father didn't fight a war.
Their father murdered his king and usurped the next one.

What matter is how they've seen themselves, when it has all been a lie that thousands have died to maintain?
And Robert was justified in his rebellion, as he was innocent. As was Ned.
And they rebelled in the open, under the sight of men and gods.

What Jaime and Cerse did was vastly uglier, and more cowardly.
And yes, i feel the lannister treasury should be used to rebuild the realm, since it was their actions, both from Casterly Rock and KL that broke it.

Edited by Scootydowop, 24 June 2012 - 03:14 PM.

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Mladen, on 24 June 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I know we all are on high horse here, but can you imagine the man talking to kill your family and burn half a million people in the city. I believe in honor, and I believe that Jaime did what he thought was right, unlike his father with murdering  Elia and Rhaenys. And remember one thing: Lannister always pays his debts. Jaime has some debts to pay, and Targaryens are on top of the list of people who are demanding a payback.

I'm not saying he wasn't right to kill Aerys, and perhaps in his shoes most people would have done the same.
But I don't think that any Targaryen would trust a known kingslayer to protect them, or any Lannister, really. It's true that his family owes Targaryens, but I doubt they would settle for Jaime as a bodyguard to settle it.

[Mladen]

Princess_of_Sunspear, on 24 June 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'm not saying he wasn't right to kill Aerys, and perhaps in his shoes most people would have done the same.
But I don't think that any Targaryen would trust a known kingslayer to protect them, or any Lannister, really. It's true that his family owes Targaryens, but I doubt they would settle for Jaime as a bodyguard to settle it.

What about saving any Targaryen`s life? And, let`s face it, it isn`t kind of unrealistic to think that Jaime could end up saving Aegon`s, Jon`s or Dany`s life (the way they are reckless, they would need saviour at some point)

Edited by Mladen, 24 June 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Mladen, on 24 June 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

What about saving any Targaryen`s life? And, let`s face it, it isn`t kind of unrealistic to think that Jaime could end up saving Aegon`s, Jon`s or Dany`s life (the way they are reckless, they would need saviour at some point)

Saving a Targ life would be different, and much more plausible. But then, there aren't many Targaryens left (Jon is unconfirmed, Aegon is disputed and Dany still isn't done with Essos)
I think saving a Targaryen life (thus earning a pardon for his family), taking his children and living somewhere far from KL would be best for him, imo.

[Tagganaro]

I don't think he can ever really be redeemed, but there's one thing he can do to come closest.  And that's saving Sansa and trying to live up to his oath to Catelyn by protecting Sansa and Arya and making sure they are safe.  I'm not sure either one of them really needs his protection though as of the moment so who knows.