100 replies to this topic

[StannisBamfatheon]

MsLibby, on 24 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I agree. His ability to make snap decisions is one of the things that make him a good soldier and, in this case, I think he did what he needed to do. Did I like it? Hell no. Do I think it was necessary? I can't think up a single thing he would have been able to do in that situation that would have given him an out. Particuarly with Cersea yelling about him seeing them.

I see you're point, honestly I think the bran-chuck is probably Jaime lowest point in his entire life, the point where he's the most like his sister.  I consider him a hero for killing Aerys and post hand removal he becomes very likeable and one of my top 5 characters.  I like Bran as well though  it just really fucked him over for now, he had all these dreams of knighthood and it would all have to be put on hold permenantly.  I guess you could say wrong place wrong time but still...that's a tough pill to swallow.

[Currawong]

MsLibby, on 24 June 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I agree. His ability to make snap decisions is one of the things that make him a good soldier and, in this case, I think he did what he needed to do. Did I like it? Hell no. Do I think it was necessary? I can't think up a single thing he would have been able to do in that situation that would have given him an out. Particuarly with Cersea yelling about him seeing them.

I think this is one of the things that people seem to forget when blaming Jaime for that action.   All his life he has been trained as a soldier, and you don't get to be one of the finest swordsmen and most feared fighters in Westeros if you cannot make those split-second decisions that are literally life or death.  That instant reaction to danger is instinctive by now:  it has been his means of survival for most of his life.   You don't get the luxury of 'thinking' when someone is swinging a sword at you! you just act to counter it.   Jaime has already had a passing regret about hurting Bran, but I don't expect him ever to fully regret about his ability to make a split second decision in the face of danger - which is exactly what this was.

[Elba the Intoner]

Currawong, on 24 June 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I think this is one of the things that people seem to forget when blaming Jaime for that action.   All his life he has been trained as a soldier, and you don't get to be one of the finest swordsmen and most feared fighters in Westeros if you cannot make those split-second decisions that are literally life or death.  That instant reaction to danger is instinctive by now:  it has been his means of survival for most of his life.   You don't get the luxury of 'thinking' when someone is swinging a sword at you! you just act to counter it.   Jaime has already had a passing regret about hurting Bran, but I don't expect him ever to fully regret about his ability to make a split second decision in the face of danger - which is exactly what this was.

His "passing regret" about throwing Bran is due to the fact that it just caused him more hassle with Cersei than he anticipated and this is the crux of the problem for me.  Even if there was absolutely nothing else he could have done in that situation he could at least start showing some true remorse about it.  Perhaps thinking that at the very least he hated having to throw Bran out like that but he could see no other choice would be a start.  I'll take that over "the wretch was spying on us" and the thoughts that he was sorry about it because Cersei gave him no end of hassle over it.

[Currawong]

I don't expect him to regret it, because he is not going to regret acting.  And I don't expect Jaime to end up all goody goody and spend hours regretting every last 'sin' he has committed across the years either.  He's not like that, and I doubt GRRM would ever write a realistic character doing that.    Jaime is a great, well-written character precisely because of this.

[Jolene Brown]

Elba the Intoner, on 24 June 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

  Perhaps thinking that at the very least he hated having to throw Bran out like that but he could see no other choice would be a start.  I'll take that over "the wretch was spying on us" and the thoughts that he was sorry about it because Cersei gave him no end of hassle over it.

This is something that develops slowly over the course of the books.  "The wretch was spying on us" was in ACOK.  I can't remember where the Cercei giving him hassle was.  Maybe early in ASOS?  Later In ASOS, he talks about how Brienne should be glad he lost his sword hand because it was the hand that slew the king, threw that boy out the window, and that he used to make Cercei wet.  That is recognition that what he did was wrong.  Then, in AFFC, when he is telling Cercei he wants to marry her, he says he isn't ashamed of loving her, only the things he did to hide it, like that boy at Winterfell, i.e. - he is ashamed of throwing Bran out the window.  I don't understand why people keep saying he never expresses regret about it.  He does, quite clearly, there.

[StannisBamfatheon]

Currawong, on 24 June 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I don't expect him to regret it, because he is not going to regret acting.  And I don't expect Jaime to end up all goody goody and spend hours regretting every last 'sin' he has committed across the years either.  He's not like that, and I doubt GRRM would ever write a realistic character doing that. Jaime is a great, well-written character precisely because of this.

Just because you acted quickly doesn't mean you acted correctly.  Impulse for the sake of impulse would make us no better than animals.  In the words of John Locke(LOST) it's the only difference between us and him(boar caught in a trap).

[MsLibby]

What he did to Bran was absolutly his lowest point  but I'm willing to give him a bit of a pass as he made the only decision he could at the time. He will simply have to live with it. I expect Ned, Stannis, etc did things they regretted during their time.

At one point, on the road home to King's Landing (but before turning back for Brianne), Jaime observes that the men who are escorting him were the type he knew all his life. They would kill on command, rape when the battle was over and then head home to their wife and children. He said they were good people. That's the only life he's ever known.

[Currawong]

Exactly @ MsLibby and StannisBaratheon.  Like all of us, he will have to live with a decision he made, and an action he did.  No one can undo something, and anyway, Jaime is not the type to live in the past and agonise over things he has done or not done.  He lives with the decisions he has made, for better or for worse, and he gets on with life.   It's a far healthier attitude than constantly looking back and 'regretting' or agonising over consequences or what he might / should have done.  

He's trying to do some things differently now, and we see his internal struggles as he tries to deal with Cersei and his discovery of 'who' she really is.  One of the reasons I like Jaime as a character is that he IS very much a practical realist, and he doesn't waste too much time worrying about the might haves /should or should not have issues in life.   He does the best he can at the time, and he is prepared to live with it.


(edited for typos)

Edited by Currawong, 24 June 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[The Frosted King]

Currawong, on 24 June 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Agree with both of these.   One of the things I like really love about the way Jaime is written as a character is that he hasn't undergone a huge "road to Damascus" conversion, through which he immediately repents of all his previous ways, resolves to be good and try to make amends, etc, etc.  I haven't seen any of those in RL, and frankly I don't believe in them, as you can't just suddenly live the 'good' life, change your thinking overnight, and put aside all that has gone before.  Changing your life is a huge struggle, and is often a case of two steps forward, one step back, so it is only natural that we don't see Jaime going "OMG, I was such a brute to Bran" and so on.  Frankly, I don't expect him ever to do that - I think he does / will 'regret' that he hurt a little boy (and he would obviously have preferred it to be death rather than maiming), but he will also recognise that he acted to protect the people he loved, including his own children.   He is not going to ever say that protecting his own children was 'wrong'.

Jaime reminds me very much of a person struggling to overcome an addiction, in his case to Cersei.   Anyone one who has ever battled to do that in some way will understand the struggles he is going through, and appreciate that he is trying, even if some of the changes in his thinking are almost subconscious.   And please: the threat as regards throwing the Tully baby back via trebuchet was exactly that - a threat, made in the full knowledge that people would take the threat seriously precisely because he was 'Jaime the Kingslayer'.  If you read on, you see how he does worry that he might have had to carry out the threat, serving his duty to the King (one oath) rather than keeping faith with Catelyn (a later oath, at sword point).   That 'too many oaths' speech at the end of Book 2 is a really critical one for understanding Jaime and many of his internal conflicts, as is the scene in the White Tower after he sends Brienne on her way, and he thinks about what he can write in the White Book about himself.   He knows it's up to him now, and IMHO, he makes a pretty good start in the rest of ASOS and in AFFC.

Depending on the circumstances, I could see him eventually telling Cersei that his duty to the king does not automatically mean a duty to the king's mother - that would very neatly echo the advice which John Darry gave to him about Aery's brutality to his wife.

One of the hardest points in any recovering addicts life, is the admission of guilt.
I'll never forget the year long sadness and pallor that came over my grandmother when my uncle, her youngest son admitted that he was the one who stole and crashed her brand new car, while he was out searching for his "man"(dealer) who was holding cane for him. There was a tire kept in the trunk that had been transferred between 2 different residences, holding around $50,000 cash. She'd had my father(her son in law) place in it her new car to bring it to her parents house, and my uncle took the car and crashed it accidentally. Rainy day fund up in flames, and nobody knew, though he was always a suspect. Lost her parents family home.  He got clean 10 years later, but one of his last steps was admitting what he'd done, and saying he was sorry.
So yeah, if his actions contribute to the overall beleaguered state of the realm, then yeah i'd say he needs to make clean.
But i'm a christian, and one of the fundamentals of my faith is admitting you've wronged, and apologizing to those who you've wronged.

Was Jaime trying to hurt the realm when he impregnated his sister? No.
Did Jaime hurt the overall stability of the realm when he impregnated his sister? Yes.

Maybe if Joff wasn't such a nasty, vicious, inbred little turd, Renly wouldn't have felt it was his ascent or his life.

[MsLibby]

I don't really believe he's heading for redemption as I feel he has always been a good man who was too heavily influenced by the wrong people. His aunt saw  he was different from his father and family, he simply needed a kick in the head to see it himself.

[ManyFacedOne]

He's already been redeemed for me: he went from a seemingly one dimensional evil character to a fully realized one -- one of the best in the series at that. That's all the redemption I care to see.

[ServantOnIce]

Jaime is one of the three Dragon riders,  It is known . .

[Currawong]

Scootydowop, on 24 June 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

One of the hardest points in any recovering addicts life, is the admission of guilt.
<snip>
But i'm a christian, and one of the fundamentals of my faith is admitting you've wronged, and apologizing to those who you've wronged.

Yes, but that's your faith, and not one that is shared by everyone.  Does apologising actually do any good?   Who is it supposed to benefit - the victim or the perpetrator?   What if the victim doesn't want an apology, or even worse, throws it back in the person's face (which I have seen and experienced IRL).  

I don't expect Jaime to apologise to Bran if he ever meets him: he might admit to himself that he was wrong, but I don't expect or need him to apologise.   It is more than enough for me that he is now trying to do his best and meet the conflicting demands of 'honour' and his oaths, and get over his addiction to Cersei.  ETA:   Why demand that he suddenly meet some 'ideal' standard of a 'good guy' and figuratively wear a hair shirt and constantly beat his breast about his sins?  That's Lancel Lannister, not Jaime!  

Some readers seem to demand so much of Jaime and his apparent need for 'redemption' - why not start demanding the same repentance and apologies from some other characters who have done just as many evil things in their lives?

Edited by Currawong, 24 June 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Hear Me Roar!]

Elba the Intoner, on 24 June 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

His "passing regret" about throwing Bran is due to the fact that it just caused him more hassle with Cersei than he anticipated and this is the crux of the problem for me.  Even if there was absolutely nothing else he could have done in that situation he could at least start showing some true remorse about it.  Perhaps thinking that at the very least he hated having to throw Bran out like that but he could see no other choice would be a start.  I'll take that over "the wretch was spying on us" and the thoughts that he was sorry about it because Cersei gave him no end of hassle over it.

"Passing regret?"

He clearly tells Cersei in ASOS that it was a bad deed and he feels remorse.

Just because Martin doesn't have him rant on for pages on end about how sowwwwy he feels doesn't mean the character isn't remorseful. It's very clear Martin wants us to know Jaime is remorseful.

[The Frosted King]

Currawong, on 24 June 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Yes, but that's your faith, and not one that is shared by everyone.  Does apologising actually do any good?   Who is it supposed to benefit - the victim or the perpetrator?   What if the victim doesn't want an apology, or even worse, throws it back in the person's face (which I have seen and experienced IRL).  

I don't expect Jaime to apologise to Bran if he ever meets him: he might admit to himself that he was wrong, but I don't expect or need him to apologise.   It is more than enough for me that he is now trying to do his best and meet the conflicting demands of 'honour' and his oaths, and get over his addiction to Cersei.

Some readers seem to demand so much of Jaime and his apparent need for 'redemption' - why not start demanding the same repentance and apologies from some other characters who have done just as many evil things in their lives?

The victim.
It almost always is able to grant closure to a period of time.
Do things turn around? Not really.
But it does mean something.

If someone had beef with you, and you felt you were in the right, but things happened, and after time away from it, they apologized....that wouldn't mean anything to you?

And if someone does throw it in your face, if truly remorseful, i doubt you'd take issue with it.
At that moment in time, its too soon, but later, it likely would mean something, unless it was a self-serving move.
And i admitted that its my faith. I didn't frame it on other readers, but i admitted that one of the core parts of me, is admitting when i've done wrong, and then apologizing.
I don't understand the mass rejection of this kinda thing anyways.
As a child, christian or not, if you messed up, didn't your parents teach you to apologize and try to make amends?

And much is demanded of Jaime because his hand is in much of what caused the fallout of the realm.
Is it unfair that people are hard on Jaime when his actions made life hard for others?

Edited by Scootydowop, 24 June 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

xerex, on 24 June 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

I believe it is sufficent that he regrets his deeds, stops the incest (he does not need to admit it, so his children don't loose their claim), keeps his white cloack and alle the vows he has spoken, forget casterly rock, as he has no claim to it anymore. Marrying is out of this as well than, and he will die in service of his king.
What good would it do to admit his deeds, he should just do better in the future, and every good thing he does makes him a better person.

But he's not in the service of his King- he's in service of his bastard son, whom he's choosing to be King. As Kingsguard, his duties are:

a) Not sleep with the Queen;
Not have children with the Queen;
c) If A & B aren't followed, then at least admit his mistakes to the rightful king.

He did none of those things. He's still trying to live life as it is most convenient to him.

[The Fallen]

Jaime himself would be the first to say he's not looking for redemption. He simply reached a sort of epiphany after losing his hand. Will he ever redeem himself? It's not out of the question. But any redemptive act would have to be honest and genuine and not contrived.

[Currawong]

Well, short of murdering two kids, he can't just "undo" having children with Cersei.  So there goes your point  (b. )

As for (a), he has not slept with Cersei since that one time immediately he returned to KL, and from what we see of his internal POVs, not to mention Cersei's own scornful attitude following loss of his hand, he is not likely to do so in the future.   The Jaime of ASOS and AFFC is unlikely to just go running back to her like a good little lion and accommodate her every whim.   It's pretty clear his eyes have been opened to Cersei and he's growing beyond that, even if in some ways he still longs for her - but then, giving up an addiction is never easy.

If he 'admits his mistakes'  to the rightful king as you suggest (and who IS 'the rightful king these days - you get plenty of arguments on that score!!) then that would condemn both him and Cersei to death.   Jaime might be repentant, but he is definitely sane and not suicidal, and he is certainly not going to condemn Cersei to death. Especially if he arrives back in KL eventually and finds out about the new High Septon.

(edited for typos)

Edited by Currawong, 24 June 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[Evamitchelle]

StannisBamfatheon, on 24 June 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Not to derail the thread but can I ask a question about this?  Why is it necessarily that Bran is becoming an 'evil' tree...I don't understand that.  He's being taught by the children of the forest who defeated the Others in the first place....they might be good people to learn from.  I dunno...this just seems totally out of left field the only thing he's done using the trees was see some vision of the past there's nothing evil about that.

Just a feeling I have. Bloodaven isn't the best guy around for one, so I'm a bit worried that he's the one who became Bran's mentor. There's also a theory making the rounds that the Children of the Forest have started to make Bran unwittingly cannibalize the Reeds and the fact that none of them bat an eyelash when Bran wargs into Hodor. In any case ending up a tree, even a magical one, doesn't seem like a grand fate for Bran.

[Ravenhair]

Regarding Bran, Jaime in ASoS says to Cersei:

"If I'd let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see.  I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it.  That boy at Winterfell..."

Clearly, Jaime has some remorse about what he did to Bran.