411 replies to this topic

[Hombre_Lobo]

Budj, on 25 June 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Nobody saw this one coming and my head may have exploded after thinking about it...but...if Aegon is younger than he is said to be (judging by how he acts), and given Jon and Meera were born in the same year, then it's possible R + L = J, A, and M....zomg!

The dragon will have three heads...triplets. boom.  And if Targ madness was passed on and Meera and Jon lucked out then it would be fitting and heartbreaking for new-Aegon to have to go down / compete with his sibling.

what I think you were getting at is that Jon is older than Aegon, correct? During Robert's rebellion, Aegon was an infant, meanwhile at the ToJ (presumably) jon was being born. The line of succession should go Aegon, Jon, Danaerys.

Correct me if I misunderstood your meaning.

[Budj]

No I meant triplets.  And who knows who came out first...this is completely crackpot...so mostly just for fun...but:

Ned brought the babies to Starfall and Ashara took that one due to Targ features...potentially he came out first which is how he got involved in this throne war plot, but this could also just be due to the fact that Varys got his hands on it first....both situations explain Ashara's "suicide" as she would have to disappear and become someone else in order to hide her identity for either finding Aegon with JC or smuggling him across the sea herself...

Ned took Jon (the rest is history) and Howland took Meera.

[Budj]

This also assumes the very very loose thought that lemore = ashara.

[Stormcatcher]

I just have a question about this theory that's been on my mind for a little while. It's probably been answered elsewhere (maybe in the other thread), but anyway - if Jon is Lyanna's child and not Ned's, why wouldn't Ned tell Catelyn that?

I realise why he wouldn't at first, and  that he wants to preserve his sister's honour and all that, but once he'd grown to know and trust Catelyn, why not confide in her? He surely couldn't be so blind as to not notice the hostility Catelyn directed at Jon? Did he not have any sense of 'honour' towards his wife's pride or 'nephew''s wellbeing?

[Teal'c]

Stormcatcher, on 25 June 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I just have a question about this theory that's been on my mind for a little while. It's probably been answered elsewhere (maybe in the other thread), but anyway - if Jon is Lyanna's child and not Ned's, why wouldn't Ned tell Catelyn that?

I realise why he wouldn't at first, and  that he wants to preserve his sister's honour and all that, but once he'd grown to know and trust Catelyn, why not confide in her? He surely couldn't be so blind as to not notice the hostility Catelyn directed at Jon? Did he not have any sense of 'honour' towards his wife's pride or 'nephew''s wellbeing?

Type 'some secrets' into the search box upper right of this page. There are many good discussion threads to read through on this question.

[dianna1975]

Another thought for those posing the idea of Meera being a "hidden" child of Lyanna.

Aegon's appearance was changed so that could fit in with his environment, is it too hard to make the stretch that they could do it to Meera too? (i.e. some potion that changed her eye color, etc)

I'm not saying that I love the theory, I'm just pointing it out for those that have dismissed the theory simply based on her looks, when there's instances of looks being disguised.

[y ddraig]

Stormcatcher, on 25 June 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I just have a question about this theory that's been on my mind for a little while. It's probably been answered elsewhere (maybe in the other thread), but anyway - if Jon is Lyanna's child and not Ned's, why wouldn't Ned tell Catelyn that?

I realise why he wouldn't at first, and  that he wants to preserve his sister's honour and all that, but once he'd grown to know and trust Catelyn, why not confide in her? He surely couldn't be so blind as to not notice the hostility Catelyn directed at Jon? Did he not have any sense of 'honour' towards his wife's pride or 'nephew''s wellbeing?

He noticed. He even calls her 'damnably cruel' to her face, IIRC. But if he's hiding a secret Targayen under his roof, that's treason, and telling Cat would be asking her to commit treason as well. I think Ned would rather lie to his wife than ask her to commit a crime punishable by death, even if Robert probably wouldn't have executed any of them.

Also, hiding Jon in Winterfell does endanger Ned's own children. Would Cat have been okay with that? I love her, but I'm not entirely sure she would have been trustworthy in this case. She's too fiercely protective of her own children, I think.

[Ygrain]

dianna1975, on 25 June 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Another thought for those posing the idea of Meera being a "hidden" child of Lyanna.

Aegon's appearance was changed so that could fit in with his environment, is it too hard to make the stretch that they could do it to Meera too? (i.e. some potion that changed her eye color, etc)

I'm not saying that I love the theory, I'm just pointing it out for those that have dismissed the theory simply based on her looks, when there's instances of looks being disguised.

All they did was dye Aegon's hair blue, which made his eyes seem more blue than purple, unless you looked thoroughly. I will yet have to see a potion that actually changes eye colour (in ASOIAF), as well as figure. The only way Meera could remain so small would be severe malnutrition throughout her life or some kind of poison, but I can't see why HR should do that, provided that all he had to do was keep Meera on the neck where no-one ever came.

Stormcatcher, on 25 June 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I just have a question about this theory that's been on my mind for a little while. It's probably been answered elsewhere (maybe in the other thread), but anyway - if Jon is Lyanna's child and not Ned's, why wouldn't Ned tell Catelyn that?

I realise why he wouldn't at first, and  that he wants to preserve his sister's honour and all that, but once he'd grown to know and trust Catelyn, why not confide in her? He surely couldn't be so blind as to not notice the hostility Catelyn directed at Jon? Did he not have any sense of 'honour' towards his wife's pride or 'nephew''s wellbeing?

"Some secrets are best not shared, not even with those one loves and trusts", or something like that. And since by harbouring Jon, Ned is committing treason, it's realy best that Catelyn doesn't know.

[sarina]

y ddraig, on 25 June 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Also, hiding Jon in Winterfell does endanger Ned's own children. Would Cat have been okay with that? I love her, but I'm not entirely sure she would have been trustworthy in this case. She's too fiercely protective of her own children, I think.

I never really liked Catelyn, I felt she acted ungracefully towards Jon. I don't think she would have kept him around if she knew he was Lyanna and Rhagar's son. She released the Kingslayer to get her daughters back, even if it meant harm to Robb's war. She would choose her children's security over anybody else's anytime...

[Maxpey]

y ddraig, on 25 June 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

He noticed. He even calls her 'damnably cruel' to her face, IIRC. But if he's hiding a secret Targayen under his roof, that's treason, and telling Cat would be asking her to commit treason as well. I think Ned would rather lie to his wife than ask her to commit a crime punishable by death, even if Robert probably wouldn't have executed any of them.

Also, hiding Jon in Winterfell does endanger Ned's own children. Would Cat have been okay with that? I love her, but I'm not entirely sure she would have been trustworthy in this case. She's too fiercely protective of her own children, I think.

Ned wondered the same thing.

[Lady Octarina]

Budj, on 25 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

No I meant triplets.  And who knows who came out first...this is completely crackpot...so mostly just for fun...but:

Ned brought the babies to Starfall and Ashara took that one due to Targ features...potentially he came out first which is how he got involved in this throne war plot, but this could also just be due to the fact that Varys got his hands on it first....both situations explain Ashara's "suicide" as she would have to disappear and become someone else in order to hide her identity for either finding Aegon with JC or smuggling him across the sea herself...

Ned took Jon (the rest is history) and Howland took Meera.

This is already my favorite crackpot theory of the week!
I only wish I could actually believe in it...

[Budj]

lol - it might be more plausible if you take Meera out of the equation...but even then ehhhhh

[Black Wolf Smith]

Hombre_Lobo, on 25 June 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

Nobody did? I guess I had presumed he was the same age, based on meera's descriptions. I can't recall, but is there anything that would suggest that he is Howland Reed?

My fault! I meant to say that nobody has ever said how HR looked like. Merra only says that "we are a small folk". not that we never heard of Jojen

[Dr. Pepper]

dianna1975, on 25 June 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Another thought for those posing the idea of Meera being a "hidden" child of Lyanna.

Aegon's appearance was changed so that could fit in with his environment, is it too hard to make the stretch that they could do it to Meera too? (i.e. some potion that changed her eye color, etc)

I'm not saying that I love the theory, I'm just pointing it out for those that have dismissed the theory simply based on her looks, when there's instances of looks being disguised.

I'm not into twins or triplets theories in relation to Jon, but if there was another triplet who was disguised, it might make more sense that the missing triplet is Wylla Manderly, considering she dyes her hair green.

[Stormcatcher]

Teal, on 25 June 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Type 'some secrets' into the search box upper right of this page. There are many good discussion threads to read through on this question.

Ah, okay, thanks.

[King Doug]

Lady Octarina, on 25 June 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

This is already my favorite crackpot theory of the week!
I only wish I could actually believe in it...

I know I love it too, but it is a bit much. I even played devil's advocate earlier in the thread.

[Hmadkour]

I haven't gone through the entire 28 threads about R+L=J; however i wanted to know whether GRRM ever commented on this theory?

[King Doug]

Hmadkour, on 25 June 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

I haven't gone through the entire 28 threads about R+L=J; however i wanted to know whether GRRM ever commented on this theory?

Nope. he never comments about future events or the fates of characters. He simply says, "keep reading."

[LadyMary]

Lady Octarina, on 25 June 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

And this begs the question: why are so many heroes in popular culture orphans raised by their aunt/uncle?!
Knowing Martin's habit of subverting the genre, this makes me fear for Jon more than anything else.

I honestly don't think GRRM subverts the tropes that much. His characters all have flaws and do stupid/selfish/impulsive actions that end up tripping them up along the way. In that way, Jon is different than Luke Skywalker who was an innocent who resisted doing anything dishonorable and was willing to die for his principles. Jon has made some choices that were questionable and done some things that he considered dishonorable.

GRRM will kill off popular/good characters while hated/evil characters thrive, but he still writes stories about flawed heroic characters and complicated villains who eventually get their comeuppance - well, some of them anyway.

It may be Jon will fall in love with Daenerys and only find out after they've had sex that she's his aunt and he's committed incest, which is considered taboo in the North.  Or maybe he'll be resurrected/revived in some way that makes him the savior of humankind but keeps him outcast from the rest of the humans he's sworn to protect.

[Alia of the knife]

Budj, on 25 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

No I meant triplets.  And who knows who came out first...this is completely crackpot...so mostly just for fun...but:

Ned brought the babies to Starfall and Ashara took that one due to Targ features...potentially he came out first which is how he got involved in this throne war plot, but this could also just be due to the fact that Varys got his hands on it first....both situations explain Ashara's "suicide" as she would have to disappear and become someone else in order to hide her identity for either finding Aegon with JC or smuggling him across the sea herself...

Ned took Jon (the rest is history) and Howland took Meera.

Even though I can't take credit for the Jon/Meera theory, I've grown rather fond of the notion.

I'd rather Alfies statement, (and he could have been high), about the Luke Skywalker analogy be about twins instead of incest with Dany.