87 replies to this topic

[Mladen]

Arya was told to destroy or throw Needle, but she has hid it. Does that mean Arya is remaining Stark, and she could never be 100% Faceless man? Your thoughts, please...

[The Fallen]

To me, Arya hiding Needle is her way of keeping a link to her past. I think that when she's ready to return to Westeros she'll definitely get Needle from where she's hidden it. I could be wrong, but I think that she's using the Faceless Men as a way to become a wolf and never feel like a sheep again; the way she felt when she was fleeing King's Landing and during her adventures in the Riverlands as a captive.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

To me it means that Cat is still Arya Stark. She will remain Arya Stark, not even the Faceless men can change that. The kindly man knows that very well I think. I couldn't believe she was throwing away all that stuff, so I was glad when I read she hid Needle. Needle represents Westeros, House Stark, Winterfell, her father, her brother; where she comes from. Arya will always stay Arya.

[Ciglon]

I think her story is going to parallel the Nymeria legend when she returns to Westeros, at least in some substantial ways. She is a Stark and must needs remain a Stark (although I'd prefer her to remain a FM I don't see it happening unfortunately).

Also, I think the Kindly Man knows this, but instead of saying "you're not FM material get out" he is at the very least giving her a chance to choose for herself what her future is, even though it will inevitably be her return to Westeros and leaving the House of Black and White.

This is very reminiscent of a father figure to Arya IMO as he is "wasting" resources on training her in a profession he knows she's not cut out for, but letting her find that out for herself and make her own decision (something she hasn't been able to do for a while as a captive). It's almost sweet until you factor in the fact that she's killing people left and right

[Thel]

Agreed; it's like the moment at the end of aFfC when she fiercely, and proudly, confesses to killing Daeron...and when the kindly man asks her who killed him she doesn't hesitate to answer. And when he counters with "I thought that girl had left Braavos; who are you?" he knows she's lying and so does she. I definitely see the fate of Needle wrapped up with her identity as Arya Stark.

[Thel]

Ciglon, on 24 June 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Also, I think the Kindly Man knows this, but instead of saying "you're not FM material get out" he is at the very least giving her a chance to choose for herself what her future is, even though it will inevitably be her return to Westeros and leaving the House of Black and White.

This is very reminiscent of a father figure to Arya IMO as he is "wasting" resources on training her in a profession he knows she's not cut out for, but letting her find that out for herself and make her own decision...

I was wondering about this. Although this may be a tangential example, I felt the same way about Bruce Wayne's training in Batman Begins! Don't you want ultimate proof of loyalty and devotion BEFORE you train him or her to be a crazy ninja-assassin killer?

And, given that we assume the kindly man knows about her continued investment in being Arya Stark, why does he continue to train her?

Edit: I type good.

Edited by Thel, 24 June 2012 - 11:39 PM.

[Lady Hodor]

Yes, it is definitley a sly sign that Arya is not capable of truly forgetting her past identity in trade for that of "No one".
As are her wolf dreams connected with Nymeria, who is in Westeros, where Arya always belongs.

It is GRRM's way of assuring us "Don't worry folks, Arya was a Stark at the start, and at the end it shall still be so."

[Francisco R. Fonseca]

I'm glad she hid Needle. It seems so like many of the Starks have been either lost or thrown to the four corners of Westeros and w/this FM story I was concerned she was losing her links to Winterfell and her family. So I was very hapy when she continued to have her wolf dreams and use her warg abilities when she was blind, because as we all know only Arya would do that, not Blind Beth. I'm looking forward to her return to Westeros, but not quite sure how it'll come about. I'd love if she could be a mystery knight at a tourney though . Before that though I want her to kill the remainder of her list.

[Ciglon]

Thel, on 24 June 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I was wondering about this. Although this may be a tangential example, I felt the same way about Bruce Wayne's  in Batman Begins! Don't you want ultimate proof of loyalty and devotion BEFORE you train him or her to be a crazy ninja-assassin killer?

And, given that we assume the kindly man knows about her continued investment in being Arya Stark, why does he continue to train her?

Like I said, I think he continues to train her because there is a chance (no matter how infinitesimally small) that she will become a FM. Remember, from his POV, evidently some Faceless Man thought her as being FM material by giving her the coin, so he has to give her a chance, even if nothing comes out of it but character development for her. Also I think he is of the mind that anyone will be welcome with a coin (a recommendation of sorts) until they choose not to continue or prove themselves incapable.

Like when training in a seminary for instance, there's no guarantee that every person there will become a priest or a nun or whatever, but it's ultimately their choice. How can Arya commit to something and some way of life she does not truly understand? If he kicks her out she will be determined to stay at the House of Black and White even though she does not belong. He constantly tells her she is not no-one and she constantly insists she is (or can be).

She has to figure out for herself that she does not belong there and that way she will leave willingly. In the end, for all the murder the FM commit, the Kindly Man is really the kindest person Arya has met since the death of her father. When she ceases to need a father figure IMO she will leave for where she truly belongs, and I think that the Kindly Man knows this. Her story really is a very sweet, emotionally touching one, my favorite for these very reasons.

ETA: typos.

Edited by Ciglon, 24 June 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Artemis]

I find this extremely fascinating as Arya's arc parallels Jon's in some way and I think it has much and more to do with their extremely potent bond of kinship/friendship:

Quote

"Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night's Watch take no wives and father no children?" Maester Aemon asked.
Jon shrugged. "No." [...]
"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."
That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him.
"What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms . . . or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy [...] Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded.[...] Yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose."

Also, I strongly believe GRRM writes with much awareness, leaving hints within how he phrases certain sentences and situations. For example, when Arya decides to join the order of the Faceless Men, she's also told to sever ties with her former life as Arya Stark of Winterfell. In essence, her storyline parallels Jon's when he joins the Wall, and more significantly, when he becomes the Lord Commander and actively authorizes/chooses getting involved within the realm's game of thrones. Jon rebels against the Night Watch, involving himself with the realm for many sound reasons, with one of them being for his sister. Arya rebels against the Faceless Men when she refuses to give up and hide Needle.

Quote

"...Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me 'little sister', she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes."

Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.
As Maester Aemon says to Jon, "What is duty against the memory of a brother's smile?" Needle was Jon Snow's smile, and for Arya, what is duty (to the FM) against that memory of Jon Snow? What is honour and duty for Jon Snow compared to the love he bears for Arya, his "little sister"?

I strongly believe it will be a memory or news of Jon Snow that will snap Arya out of her "running away from her past and problems" defense mechanism. I think it's only fitting as Jon Snow's last mortal thought in ADwD was of Needle ("Stick 'em with the pointy end") and Arya's first new thought as she reclaims the "skin" of Arya Stark of Winterfell will be of Needle.

[Mladen]

Artemis, on 24 June 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.
As Maester Aemon says to Jon, "What is duty against the memory of a brother's smile?" Needle was Jon Snow's smile, and for Arya, what is duty (to the FM) against that memory of Jon Snow? What is honour and duty for Jon Snow compared to the love he bears for Arya, his "little sister"?

I strongly believe it will be a memory or news of Jon Snow that will snap Arya out of her "running away from her past and problems" defense mechanism. I think it's only fitting as Jon Snow's last mortal thought in ADwD was of Needle ("Stick 'em with the pointy end") and Arya's first new thought as she reclaims the "skin" of Arya Stark of Winterfell will be of Needle.

So, actually Arya has Stark looks, but Tully philosophy of life. Family, Duty, Honor...

Edited by Mladen, 24 June 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[Ciglon]

Artemis, on 24 June 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.
As Maester Aemon says to Jon, "What is duty against the memory of a brother's smile?" Needle was Jon Snow's smile, and for Arya, what is duty (to the FM) against that memory of Jon Snow? What is honour and duty for Jon Snow compared to the love he bears for Arya, his "little sister"?

Wow, never caught this, that being one of my favourite scenes from the series to date. I've always noticed a slight parallel between the 2 characters, but not quite so strong, and it makes a lot of sense. Maybe she will go back kill the Freys and the Boltons in her family's (and most importantly Jon's) name? Seeing her wreak havoc in the North with her newfound powers would be quite awesome IMO.

[Artemis]

Mladen, on 24 June 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

So, actually Arya has Stark looks, but Tully philosophy of life. Family, Duty, Honor...

I actually think so, yes! We hear time and time again of how Sansa takes after House Tully and her lady-mother but as the novels progress, we see her increasingly behaving a lot like a Stark, specifically a lot like Eddard Stark. Arya has been told she has the "Stark look", but it's out of vengeance for her family and her friends that she even began killing and whispering her nightly prayer. Also, Eddard Stark tells Arya in AGoT that if she wants to "hate" anybody, it should be against those who wish harm to her family.

Edit: Just found the quote said by Ned Stark to Arya:

Quote

"Let me tell you about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm."

Edited by Artemis, 24 June 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Francisco R. Fonseca]

Ciglon, on 24 June 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Wow, never caught this, that being one of my favourite scenes from the series to date. I've always noticed a slight parallel between the 2 characters, but not quite so strong, and it makes a lot of sense. Maybe she will go back kill the Freys and the Boltons in her family's (and most importantly Jon's) name? Seeing her wreak havoc in the North with her newfound powers would be quite awesome IMO.

I'd love to see that. I agree, I don't think Arya's heart is in being a FM, but she does mention where else can she go. Considering she's otherwise homeless she doesn't have a lot of options, but do think once she grows more mature she'll leave and seek her own path back in Westeros.

[Helgar]

Quote

"...Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me 'little sister', she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes."

This might just be the most emotional moment in AFfC. In my mind I did believe that Needle was a connection to Arya's heritage, but when she went to throw it away I thought, "well, that's Martin, there's no room for sentimentalisms in Westeros".

And then he made me cry like a little girl. Never been happier to bawl my eyes out!

Edited by Helgar, 24 June 2012 - 02:33 PM.

[Mladen]

Artemis, on 24 June 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

I actually think so, yes! We hear time and time again of how Sansa takes after House Tully and her lady-mother but as the novels progress, we see her increasingly behaving a lot like a Stark, specifically a lot like Eddard Stark. Arya has been told she has the "Stark look", but it's out of vengeance for her family and her friends that she even began killing and whispering her nightly prayer. Also, Eddard Stark tells Arya in AGoT that if she wants to "hate" anybody, it should be against those who wish harm to her family.

Can we say then that Sansa is vice versa. Her look is Tullys, but philosophy is WINTER IS COMING. As far as I see Sansa, she is much more daughter of Eddard Stark than Arya is. Sansa`s pride isn`t questionable by anyone(Tyrion, court, LF, Lysa Arryn, people in Eyrie), but she learned on very painful way, that troubles are keep coming. The two of them are the most interesting pair of siblings anywhere in literature

[Artemis]

Helgar, on 24 June 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

This might just be the most emotional moment in AFfC. In my mind I did believe that Needle was a connection to Arya's heritage, but when she went to throw it away I thought, "well, that's Martin, there's no room for sentimentalisms in Westeros".

And then he made me cry like a little girl. Never been happier to bawl my eyes out!

I know.   I was feeling so many mixed emotions while reading this paragraph in the books when I first came across it. I was delighted because it was the first time Arya (since after witnessing the slaughter of hundreds of Northmen at the Twins, knowing both her brother and mother had been killed within its walls, pulling out her Mother's corpse from a river as Nymeria, and her mental breakdown after stabbing Polliver repeatedly) actually thought back to how her life was like at Winterfell and her family. At the same time, I was furious with her for not turning herself around and taking a ship to the Wall.

Edit: And actually, the most tragic part of all of this is that even if she manages to get back to Winterfell at the end of it all, everything will be painted with the shadow of loss. Every Stark child has lost the innocence of their childhood which they will never again be granted.

Edited by Artemis, 24 June 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Pod The Impaler]

Needle represents her having to give up all that she is, and so far she hasn't. (And a warg is what she is - the truest mark of Stark blood in her.) You have to wonder whether the FM know Arya's hidden Needle (and for that matter, that she's a warg). The FM have always shown they know more about her than they let on; they are not easily fooled (if ever). Yet at every turn, they have not pushed her into joining them, they have always made it her decision and demanded she let go of being Arya. She has sworn she would - and most recently, she has been shown techniques for which they demended she give it all up. If they find out now she has not, do they seem the type to just allow Arya to take their secrets and run off to fulfill her own agenda as a Stark ? And after all, anyone who had broken a promise in this series has tended to suffer dearly for doing so. If Arya breaks her word with them, she may be killed as a result.
However, it is possible that they know about her hiding of needle and being a warg already. Maybe they don't care. Hell, maybe they are actually counting on her being who she is, manipulating her into doing what they want, because in spite of it all, she is still a little girl and not that cunning. After all, every time they want her to go deeper into the FM, they merely have to challenge her commitment, as if she cannot do it, and she tries to prove them wrong or gain their approval.

So who knows. The FM may not know and when they find out, may be angered. Or when they find out they may be inclided to just adapt to it. They may already know and are waiting to see what she chooses when the time truly comes. Or maybe they already know and have been shaping these situations counting on the fact that she will never stop being Arya Stark.

Well, it's all just speculation really.

[Grey Stark]

I definitely think that, by hiding Needle, she is holding onto herself and will never truly be a faceless man until she can let go.
I'd also be surprised if the kindly man didn't know she still has Needle.

[Artemis]

Pod The Impaler, on 24 June 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

You have to wonder whether the FM know Arya's hidden Needle (and for that matter, that she's a warg). The FM have always shown they know more about her than they let on; they are not easily fooled (if ever). Yet at every turn, they have not pushed her into joining them, they have always made it her decision and demanded she let go of being Arya. She has sworn she would - and most recently, she has been shown techniques for which they demended she give it all up. If they find out now she has not, do they seem the type to just allow Arya to take their secrets and run off to fulfill her own agenda as a Stark ? And after all, anyone who had broken a promise in this series has tended to suffer dearly for doing so. If Arya breaks her word with them, she may be killed as a result.
However, it is possible that they know about her hiding of needle and being a warg already. Maybe they don't care. Hell, maybe they are actually counting on her being who she is, manipulating her into doing what they want, because in spite of it all, she is still a little girl and not that cunning. After all, every time they want her to go deeper into the FM, they merely have to challenge her commitment, as if she cannot do it, and she tries to prove them wrong or gain their approval.

So who knows. The FM may not know and when they find out, may be angered. Or when they find out they may be inclided to just adapt to it. They may already know and are waiting to see what she chooses when the time truly comes. Or maybe they already know and have been shaping these situations counting on the fact that she will never stop being Arya Stark.

Oh, I think they know. I can't quite seem to shake that feeling, too. After Arya throws all of her other possessions into the canal and hides Needle, it's noted in that same Arya POV in AFfC that:

Quote

She never told the kindly man what she had done, yet he knew. The next day he came to her cell after supper. "Child," he said, "come sit with me. I have a tale to tell you."

If he knew of Arya ridding herself of all her belongings, wouldn't he also know of her hiding Needle, and of all places, hiding the sword underneath a few rocks in the very entrance of the HoB&W itself?

The Faceless Men are known not only for their killing prowess, but also espionage. The kindly man tells Arya to return to the HoB&W every moon's turn to report back 3 new things she has learned.
If anything, I think the Faceless Men are very aware of who Arya Stark is. Else-wise, why else would they "accelerate" her initiation tribulations? It was noted (I'm trying to find the quote as I type this; I'll edit it in later) that she was blinded much earlier than the usual acolyte would. They have a hidden agenda, but it has not yet been revealed. Hmmm.

Perhaps they are grooming her for a particular purpose? The way Bloodraven is grooming Bran for a role to play in the upcoming battle between Ice and Fire? I had a post outlining the similarities between Arya and Bran and I'm thinking I might start a thread about it because it's fascinating stuff.

Edited by Artemis, 24 June 2012 - 03:03 PM.