84 replies to this topic

[oscarinfw]

Pellaeon, on 25 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Only on short term, for a long term relationship Tyrion need a equel intelligent wife

He already has an "equel intelligent wife" - Sansa !

[Winter's Knight]

Pellaeon, on 25 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Only on short term, for a long term relationship Tyrion need a equel intelligent wife

As verified by the many scintillating conversations he had with Shae.

[Pellaeon]

oscarinfw, on 25 June 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

He already has an "equel intelligent wife" - Sansa !

I totaly agree with you, this was what I wanted to make clear

[Natalie_S]

Winter, on 25 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

As verified by the many scintillating conversations he had with Shae.

One thing is not being a genius, another thing is being mentally handicapped.
The person that marries Lollys (Bronn) will have to see that she's taken care like a child, and be very ruthless when it comes to marital duties, because it's pretty much abuse.

Edited by Natalie_S, 25 June 2012 - 08:20 AM.

[Ragnorak]

Look more to Tywin than Tyrion.  Tywin was responsible for arranging the marriages for all his children.  If Tywin is not willing to recognize Tyrion as his heir why would any Lord marry his daughter to a son whose father won't even fully recognize him.

[Evamitchelle]

When Tyrion was offered Sansa in marriage it's not her cleverness he remarked on, he seems to find her pretty dull actually. No his thoughts during that scene are : "Soft spoken sweet-smelling Sansa Stark, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights" and that he'd like to have a castle away from King's Landing. In the same scene he says he'd rather castrate himself than marry Lollys. So sure, he liked clever girls, but only as longs as they're equally beautiful. This is one of the things that annoy me the most about him actually, the way he keeps complaining that no hot woman will have sex with him because he's a dwarf. Given what he keeps saying about Lollys being physically repulsive it's really quite hypocritical.

[Natalie_S]

As I said, you can't compare someone who's young or naive, or simply not the sharpest tool in the box, with someone who now would probably diagnosed with a medical condition.
It's a completely different basis on which to build any kind of relationship.
Please don't try to ignore that just to keep supporting your point about Tyrion.

[Rapsie]

How about Penny: she's not mentally handicapped, is interested in him and he certainly doesn't want her.

[Evamitchelle]

Natalie_S, on 25 June 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

As I said, you can't compare someone who's young or naive, or simply not the sharpest tool in the box, with someone who now would probably diagnosed with a medical condition.
It's a completely different basis on which to build any kind of relationship.
Please don't try to ignore that just to keep supporting your point about Tyrion.

Tyrion describes Lollys as "a large, soft, dim-witted girl who rumor said was still a maid at thirty-three" but Sansa only describes her as "placid and dull". There's quite a difference between the two descriptions, and notice that Tyrion's first though about her is about her appearance and not her wits. Given those descriptions I think it's not enough to categorize her as mentally retarded. At least certainly not like Hodor, who only seems to be capable of repeating one word. She also spends most of the novels in complete shock after a brutal gang-rape, so that wouldn't have imporved her conversation.

But Lollys is only one example. I don't have the book at hand, but I seem to remember Tyrion didn't react so well to the idea that Penny kinda liked him because he doesn't want to end up with a dwarf girl like himself.

[Natalie_S]

Lollys is often described as "dimwitted", which is the same word used for both Hodor and Jinglebell Frey.
Plus, she's a gentleborn lady with a castle, how comes that Lady Stokeworth didn't manage to find a single minor knight willing to wed her?
In arranged marriages, just beauty surely isn't the main quality to be considered.
I think that her condition was quite clear in the book, even if not explicitly described.


He says "He liked Penny, he pitied Penny, he even admired Penny in a way, but he did not desire her."
Not desiring someone is not a crime. Not everyone is attracted to everyone.
And also "He had no wish to hurt her, though; the gods and his sweet sister had given her enough pain. So he let the kiss go on, holding her gently by the shoulders.".
He's actually quite sensitive in this situation.
Personally I liked the fact that he can have a good relationship with someone who's not attracted to.
It's the first time we see Tyrion in a real friendship, caring for someone that he wants nothing from, and we see that he almost doesn't know what to do.
He comforts her and tells her that they will be saved and everything will be fine, but feels that it's almost a betrayal, because he can't prevent bad things from happening and just saying things to make someone feel better seem very distant from the life philosophy that he has been taught (I think for instance that the Lannister stress on "paying debts" implies some sort of business-like approach, like "give people what you owe them and no more").

Edited by Natalie_S, 25 June 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Mladen]

Currawong, on 24 June 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Well, there is just a small problem (excuse the pun!) - Tyrion murdered Tywin.   Which makes him even worse than Jaime in the eyes of most people, as he is a Kin-slayer.  

So in terms of being the heir to Casterly Rock and a marriage prospect, he first has to 1. return to Westeros, and 2.  somehow get that little murder matter set aside.   Then of course, there is 3.  his marriage to Sansa.  OK, that may be able to be set aside, but if Tysha is still alive ...

As for being Lord of Casterly Rock, I wonder how acceptable he would be to the men of the West?  Seriously - would they be prepared to accept Tywin's despised son, the man who murdered Tywin, as the head of the Lannister family and their leader?  I hardly think so, as Tywin was definitely respected by his men.   I think they would prefer some other male in the Lannister line, and however smart Tyrion was or is, I reckon he would have a huge problem being accepted by the Lannister bannermen.

Well, I somehow stupidely forgot about it. There will be always people who would be disgust by him, but there are always ambitious people ready to close an eye or both of them, just for the surname Lannister...

[Winter's Knight]

Natalie_S, on 25 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

One thing is not being a genius, another thing is being mentally handicapped.
The person that marries Lollys (Bronn) will have to see that she's taken care like a child, and be very ruthless when it comes to marital duties, because it's pretty much abuse.

The poster I replied to was saying that Tyrion needs an intelligent wife- I was merely pointing out that this was not the case.

People bring up Lollys and Penny to highlight Tyrion's hypocrisy-he constantly bewails the fact that beautiful women won't love him because of his appearance whilst he continually dismisses women for not being attractive.

Edited by Winter's Knight, 25 June 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Natalie_S]

(Before you edited the post, I could just see my own post being quoted and I was "What?? Winter's Knight is agreeing with me? Is this the end of the world, 2012 Maya style?". Then I came back and see the editing and thought "aaah, ok then!").

For the record, I already wrote about Lollys, and he's just not attracted to Penny, but it happens.
It's not like he's feeling weirdly attracted to her but then thinks "oh no, i can't be with her, society tells me that she's not a conventional beauty therefore I will stop this feeling because i would be embarassed to be with her..." etc.
There's just no chemistry. It happens.
But this doesn't mean he can't see her good qualities ("he even admired her") and goes out of his way to help her and take care of her.

By the way, I think GRRM put Penny in Tyrion's storyline just to show him being friends with a woman he doesn't ultimately want to sleep with.
It's ironic that she's brought up to support the "Tyrion sees women only as sexual objects" theory.

[Kittykatknits]

Am I the only one who thinks that Tyrion's story arc is deliberately not about marriage?
Tyrion is very insecure about his looks and the ability of women to ever love him. But, the old maxim that you can't expect anyone to love you unless you love yourself holds very true for him. There is more than one path to happiness in life and I believe he needs to figure that out. To me, Tyrion is at his best when he is able to use his wits in times of stress such as his time in the Vale, the mountain clans, coming up with the chain idea, sold in to slavery, and the Second Sons. I like Tyrion in what I always call his politician role. He really enjoys it and is very good at it, when he does not allow his insecurities and weakness interfere, his time in KL with Cersei and Joff being the prime examples.

Tyrion has been looking for acceptance and a wife is not the only way to get that.

[Evamitchelle]

Natalie_S, on 25 June 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Lollys is often described as "dimwitted", which is the same word used for both Hodor and Jinglebell Frey.
Plus, she's a gentleborn lady with a castle, how comes that Lady Stokeworth didn't manage to find a single minor knight willing to wed her?
In arranged marriages, just beauty surely isn't the main quality to be considered.
I think that her condition was quite clear in the book, even if not explicitly described.

Lollys is the second daughter of a relatively small house in the Crownlands. Falyse was the heir, and her husbandwas a knight from an equally minor noble House. Lollys would have no real dowry to speak of, and in addition to not being very attractive or bright this doesn't make her an attractive prospect from the other nobles. Which is why Lady tanda proposes her to people like Littlefinger, who's as minor a noble as they come. Bronn is the only suitor they managed to attract, and he's 100% lowborn.

Natalie_S, on 25 June 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

He says "He liked Penny, he pitied Penny, he even admired Penny in a way, but he did not desire her."
Not desiring someone is not a crime. Not everyone is attracted to everyone.
And also "He had no wish to hurt her, though; the gods and his sweet sister had given her enough pain. So he let the kiss go on, holding her gently by the shoulders.".
He's actually quite sensitive in this situation.
Personally I liked the fact that he can have a good relationship with someone who's not attracted to.
It's the first time we see Tyrion in a real friendship, caring for someone that he wants nothing from, and we see that he almost doesn't know what to do.
He comforts her and tells her that they will be saved and everything will be fine, but feels that it's almost a betrayal, because he can't prevent bad things from happening and just saying things to make someone feel better seem very distant from the life philosophy that he has been taught (I think for instance that the Lannister stress on "paying debts" implies some sort of business-like approach, like "give people what you owe them and no more").

Friends usually don't slap each other, especially with one a grown adult and the other barely out of teenage years. But the problem with Tyrion isn't that he doesn't want to sleep with people he finds unattractive, that's all fine. The problem is that he keeps complaining that attractive women don't want to sleep with him because he's ugly, while repeatedly insulting other women for being unattractive.

[Pellaeon]

I don't deny that Tyrion choose his women because of their look. But for a long term stable relationship he needs a intellectual equel wife. He also want social acceptance so in the current society he needs a highborn wife

[Pellaeon]

Kittykatknits, on 25 June 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Tyrion has been looking for acceptance and a wife is not the only way to get that.

But is it a part of the packet: title, wife, loyalty and respect of the smallfolk and his liege

[Natalie_S]

A "get hold of yourself" slap is acceptable to me in extreme situations.

You keep writing that Tyrion complains that beautiful women don't want to sleep with him, but I can't see that in the books.
He wants a woman to love him. And he's jealous of other people in happy relationships (the scene at Joffrey's wedding ).
But he never thinks "that woman is so shallows because she can't see past my physical appearance". He doesn't judge women for not wanting him.
He's interiorized Tywin's judgement ("No one will ever love you, they'll just pretend for your gold") and see this as an harsh reality, something that can't be avoided.


PS: I can see KittYKaknits's point rationally... but from an emotional point of view I hope he will find the love he's looking for.
(yeah, I'm such a girly girl, this goes straight in the "girls what do you like in the series" thread)

[Kittykatknits]

Pellaeon, on 25 June 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

But is it a part of the packet: title, wife, loyalty and respect of the smallfolk and his liege

I'm not arguing whether it is part of the expected packet for a noble man. I'm saying that Tyrion wants to be loved by a woman. There is nothing wrong with that, everyone wants to be loved. But, satisfaction, a sense of self-worth, and happiness needs to come from other points as well. As long as Tyrion is looking for some sort of idyllic love, he's not going to obtain that. It is an ideal, it's not possible. I think part of Tyrion's story arc is figuring this out.

[Brienne Tarly]

Rapsie, on 25 June 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

How about Penny: she's not mentally handicapped, is interested in him and he certainly doesn't want her.

Yet!

There is some development there in him, similar to Jaime's changing attitude towards Brienne.
And personally, I can see why he thinks her incredibly stupid, he is extremely bitter at this point, he was quite a cynic to begin with, the way she embraces her dwarfhood must be hard for him to deal with (he has been taught all his life that it's a curse, while she is rather comfortable about it)...

to sum it up, for Tyrion to like Penny, he would have a lot of things to overcome.

And it may sound hypocritical if an "ugly" person desires "beautiful" persons, but sexual desire and moral considerations are unfortunately not the same thing. I think. Life's not a song, and free will isn't all it is hailed to be.