400 replies to this topic

[Winter's Knight]

Continuing from the previous thread:

Aubry:

I'm terribly sorry if I'm repeating something already said in this particular thread - I'm having trouble getting some pages to load - but surely a lot of Jon's issues come from his status as a bastard which is societally imposed rather than particular to Cat's treatment of him.

Jon has trouble with questions of entitlement - he's been brought up with no certainties about what his place in life should be. He feels keenly his difference from his siblings. He yearns to be more completely a part of the family, but he is set against the idea of a family of his own because of his own status. He has all the ambitions of a high-born lord, and the guilt and bitterness of knowing his status prevents that.

For me, this comes back to the question of how critics think Cat should ideally have treated Jon in an un-ideal world. How much could she or should she have changed things for Jon? He would still be unable to inherit. His presence at table would still be an insult to royals. He'd still be viewed with suspicion by the Westerosi for his bad blood. Ned's faffing about

might

still have left him uncertain about his future. (To veer briefly off topic, if Cat and Jon had had a better relationship, Ned might have been better about giving Jon clear options for his future, but we don't know for certain, and that's really on Ned, not Cat.)

Would Jon's bitterness have been less if Cat had doted on him, or would it just have been different? Cat didn't make him a bastard or dictate what his bastard-status meant about his lot in life.

[Bee Diddie]

What i don't understand is why she feels so shamed by Jon's existence. I mean practically every house great and small in Westeros has bastards. Why should she feel so particularly prickly about it? Does she think herself special? Now that it's been established that Cat was always cold and bitter with Jon for something he had no control over, I'd say it's less than an endearing quality trait.

[Night Gathers]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

What i don't understand is why she feels so shamed by Jon's existence. I mean practically every house great and small in Westeros has bastards. Why should she feel so particularly prickly about it? Does she think herself special? Now that it's been established that Cat was always cold and bitter with Jon for something he had no control over, I'd say it's less than an endearing quality trait.

Well, she loves Ned with all her heart and believes he truly fathered a bastard on another woman while they still were married. Jon turned out to look more like Ned than any of her own children, which was a constant reminder of Ned's 'mistake'. I believe she even finds it hard to understand how Ned, who she loves so dearly could be with another woman, since she can't be too angry with her husband, her rage turns to Jon. He becomes the 'innocent' victim here.

That's at least how I see it.

[sillent]

Hey, at least she didn't have him killed (like Cersei).

Honestly, while its not a great trait to hate on a kid for being born, the fact is that he was a constant reminder that the honorable Ned Stark had cheated on her, and on top of that wouldn't speak of the mistress. On top of that if you add that there were rumors that it was Ashara Dayne (who was pretty) she was probably a bit jealous too.

But since she didn't go out of her way to be cruel to him, I'd say while it wasn't ideal it was far from bad. Jon's issues were there because of being a bastard (and the only bastard)

[Bee Diddie]

Night Gathers, on 25 June 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Well, she loves Ned with all her heart and believes he truly fathered a bastard on another woman while they still were married. Jon turned out to look more like Ned than any of her own children, which was a constant reminder of Ned's 'mistake'. I believe she even finds it hard to understand how Ned, who she loves so dearly could be with another woman, since she can't be too angry with her husband, her rage turns to Jon. He becomes the 'innocent' victim here.

That's at least how I see it.

I understand, I still think it's rather petty.

[danm_999]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

What i don't understand is why she feels so shamed by Jon's existence. I mean practically every house great and small in Westeros has bastards. Why should she feel so particularly prickly about it? Does she think herself special? Now that it's been established that Cat was always cold and bitter with Jon for something he had no control over, I'd say it's less than an endearing quality trait.

When it comes to someone you love, rationalising it in terms of "lots of other men have done it too" isn't really very effective.

[kg1982]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

What i don't understand is why she feels so shamed by Jon's existence. I mean practically every house great and small in Westeros has bastards. Why should she feel so particularly prickly about it? Does she think herself special? Now that it's been established that Cat was always cold and bitter with Jon for something he had no control over, I'd say it's less than an endearing quality trait.

There are set rules for how a noble woman should behave in these situations, such as cheerfully accepting her husband's decisions regarding Jon.  She doesn't for her own pride and personal emotional reasons.  Which is ironic because I think that Cat's main downfall is that she thinks that everyone should act the way society has told them to act..  i.e. a lower born ward like Littlefinger would remain grateful of Cat all these years later and not resentful and angry.  Yet here is a situation where she herself isn't acting in the way prescribed by society.

[Bee Diddie]

sillent, on 25 June 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Hey, at least she didn't have him killed (like Cersei).

Honestly, while its not a great trait to hate on a kid for being born, the fact is that he was a constant reminder that the honorable Ned Stark had cheated on her, and on top of that wouldn't speak of the mistress. On top of that if you add that there were rumors that it was Ashara Dayne (who was pretty) she was probably a bit jealous too.

But since she didn't go out of her way to be cruel to him, I'd say while it wasn't ideal it was far from bad. Jon's issues were there because of being a bastard (and the only bastard)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe I read a brief passage in aGoT where it is said that a Lord bringing his bastard home to raise in his household isn't exactly common. I mean, I know there are other houses who have bastards under their roof like The Freys, but I was of the belief that base-born children were usually raised away from the family proper,
Maybe that's another reason Cat is so petty about the matter.

[Frey Pie]

danm_999, on 25 June 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

When it comes to someone you love, rationalising it in terms of "lots of other men have done it too" isn't really very effective.

Very true. What i find odd is that Ned and Catelyn seem to really be in love. This was not the case when Jon was fathered as they didnt know eachother at all. Yet she grew to forgive and love him but could never bring herself to even care about Jon. Perhaps its a ASOIAF thing,more common then we know and possibly to do with inheritance and all that. Yet she still forgave Ned but not the innocent child-odd

Also as they were so close how is it Ned never confided in her? He must have known it was hurtung her and they trusted eachother with their lives as we see so...

[Mulled Wino]

I cant believe a mod said there is only one legit criticism on cat.


Well ii's settled then:

1) NO ONE is allowed the hold Cat's treatment of Jon against her
2) Cat NEVER has to consider repercussions, just do what
she sees fit at all times. Wjatever happens after her actions is absolutely not her fault, because she didn't forsee it (this is going to blow all the Ned threads outta the water).

, lets all go home now

[danm_999]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

Maybe that's another reason Cat is so petty about the matter.

I wouldn't say Cat is being petty; since being petty means you're focusing on something trivial. I think it's a hard argument to make that your husband cheating on you is trivial.

What I'd say is, Cat completely misdirects her anger. It's not Jon's fault at all, and she really shouldn't hold it against him, it's Ned that she should be mad at. There are complications to that though, since Medieval society affords women fewer chances to call men on their bullshit.

[David Selig]

kg1982, on 25 June 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

There are set rules for how a noble woman should behave in these situations, such as cheerfully accepting her husband's decisions regarding Jon.  She doesn't for her own pride and personal emotional reasons.  Which is ironic because I think that Cat's main downfall is that she thinks that everyone should act the way society has told them to act..  i.e. a lower born ward like Littlefinger would remain grateful of Cat all these years later and not resentful and angry.  Yet here is a situation where she herself isn't acting in the way prescribed by society.

Wrong. Outside of Dorne it is very unusual for noble bastards to be raised in their father's castle and if it happens, it's certainly not expected for the wives to just accept them meekly.

[Bee Diddie]

In my opinion, Cat's feeling towards Jon Snow is more than simple shame and resentment. Saying "It should have been you" to Jon while kneeling beside her crippled son is a vile, disgusting thing to do to a teenage kid.
The way GRRM details the scene, it's more than a bitter resentment. The tension is thick, and Cat's hatred of Jon is almost palpable.
I ask you: What type of person could foster such hatred towards a child who is blameless?
Catlyn Stark was a bitch.

[Evamitchelle]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

What i don't understand is why she feels so shamed by Jon's existence. I mean practically every house great and small in Westeros has bastards. Why should she feel so particularly prickly about it? Does she think herself special? Now that it's been established that Cat was always cold and bitter with Jon for something he had no control over, I'd say it's less than an endearing quality trait.

A lot of noblemen have bastards, but very few of them actually raise them among their own kids if they have a wife around. Bastards are generally treated much better in Dorne than in the rest of the world, for example the Sand Snakes and Daemon Sand (though Daemon is still considered of too law standing for Arianne - but that may also be because of the secret betrothal to Viserys), but every where else bastards are kept out of sight, unless the Lord doesn't care about his wife at all. For example Aegon IV the Unworthy, who had several mistresses and generally treated his bastards well (when he isn't pitting them against each other) and Walder Frey, who is famous for having numerous bastards and numerous wives as well. Most other bastards are kept away from their trueborn siblings : Larence Snow of Lord Hornwood is being raised by the Glovers, Ramsay Snow was left with his mother well away from Domeric, all of Robert's bastards were scattered around the continent, and even the recognized one, Edric Storm, was raised by a castellan at Storm's End. Falia Flowers was a kitchen wench for her trueborn sisters. Noblemen usually care for their bastards, but not in their own house. The only other Lords who do things like Ned did with Jon are Walder Frey and Aegon the Unworthy, which doesn't exactly puts him in great company.

[danm_999]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

In my opinion, Cat's feeling towards Jon Snow is more than simple shame and resentment. Saying "It should have been you" to Jon while kneeling beside her crippled son is a vile, disgusting thing to do to a teenage kid.
The way GRRM details the scene, it's more than a bitter resentment. The tension is thick, and Cat's hatred of Jon is almost palpable.
I ask you: What type of person could foster such hatred towards a child who is blameless?
Catlyn Stark was a bitch.

I disagree. I think simple shame and resentment totally explain everything in that scene. Not to mention grief.

[David Selig]

Mulled Wino, on 25 June 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

I cant believe a mod said there is only one legit criticism on cat.


Well ii's settled then:

1) NO ONE is allowed the hold Cat's treatment of Jon against her
2) Cat NEVER has to consider repercussions, just do what
she sees fit at all times. Wjatever happens after her actions is absolutely not her fault, because she didn't forsee it (this is going to blow all the Ned threads outta the water).

, lets all go home now

The mods are allowed to have opinions on the ASOIF characters too, you know. Doesn't mean you can't disagree and argue with them about it, they won't delete your posts or anything like that.

[Bee Diddie]

danm_999, on 25 June 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I disagree. I think simple shame and resentment totally explain everything in that scene. Not to mention grief.

Perhaps.
Still a pretty shitty thing to say though, and certainly made me view her in a different light.

[Evamitchelle]

Shame, resentment, grief and lack of sleep are

danm_999, on 25 June 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I disagree. I think simple shame and resentment totally explain everything in that scene. Not to mention grief.

Lack of sleep is also a factor if I'm not mistaken.

[danm_999]

Bee Diddie, on 25 June 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Perhaps.
Still a pretty shitty thing to say though, and certainly made me view her in a different light.

It's kind of judging her on her lowest though. It's not like it's unusual for people to say awful things they don't mean when they're especially angry/upset/despondent.

She also explodes at Maester Luwin and Robb for basically nothing.

[Bee Diddie]

danm_999, on 25 June 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

It's kind of judging her on her lowest though. It's not like it's unusual for people to say awful things they don't mean when they're especially angry/upset/despondent.

She also explodes at Maester Luwin and Robb for basically nothing.

See? And I thought this was just more evidence of her being a bitch. Alas, I am biased as Cat is bar far my least favorite POV in aSoIoF. Can't stand the woman.