105 replies to this topic

[nordas]

I mean we all know his father, Aerys was mad, so did all the others in the realm. Rhaegar was his firstborn son, and heir, he should have forced him to resign, and send him to dragonstone, and take the ironthrone - he had a rightful claim, and most of the lords would support him...Despite this, he insulted the proud starks, and enraged robert baratheon by starting a stupid romance with a highborn lady. Tywinn Lannister was probably the wealthiest and strongest lord, but he wasnt even trying to convince him.  So my conclusion is that rhaegar was an arrogant prick, and a really bad politician - like most of the targ. However after reading the Dwd i thing rhaegars closest friends (the griff) are responsible too. His fanatism is soo sick.

[Dracarya]

I'm not sure Rhaegar could have done anything to get rid of Aerys. Above all, he was his father and his king, both of whom you are supposed to obey.

nordas, on 25 June 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

However after reading the Dwd i thing rhaegars closest friends (the griff) are responsible too. His fanatism is soo sick.

How so?

[Rinso]

Personally, I blame Rhaegar as much as Aerys. He is really the catalyst of all that happened. And he should have known better.

Whatever he did - the details are still very fuzzy - he still behaved extremely irresponsibly considering he is the heir of the throne and the hope of Westeros. So, in retrospect, he is the one who poured the jar of gazoline over the fire and he got burned as a result. Serves him right in my book.

[Ice Turtle]

If some sources could be believed Harrenhall tourney was cover for meeting with the great lords, but Varys whispered to Aerys and the plan came apart and I think that Rhaegar resigned after that to all more ordinary problems and become wholly obsessed with PtwP prophecy.
Dealing with Tywin while he was still Hand would be too risky, I can't blame him for that.
But yes Rhaegar was partly responsible for Rebelllion, though it wasn't all his fault.

[A bowl of brown]

Its hard to tell as there's so much we don't know about the Rebellion. However I do think it's probable that Rhaegar was overly obsessed with the PtwP prophecy and neglected his duty to the realm in some regards.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Rhaegar knew his father was going off the deep end, but could he have reasonably expected him to roast Rickard and co.? No, I don't think Rhaegar expected that his running off with Lyanna would spark so much anger (HOW do people know Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna? If theories are right and they snuck off together, How did Brandon know she was with Rhaegar? Where did the kidnapping stuff come from? For all we know, LF (Ha! right after their duel) could have told Brandon Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna )

Rhaeger snuck off with his secret love, and then when he returns to contact with KL, learns that people were pissed, his dad started a war - he thinks "Damn! My dad is crazier than i realized, things will change when I return")

Dracarya, on 25 June 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

How so?

I think he is referring to JC's man-crush on Rhaegar

See - ADWD Gay POV thread

[Dracarya]

QuentynTheBlazed, on 25 June 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I think he is referring to JC's man-crush on Rhaegar

See - ADWD Gay POV thread

Oh lawd. I think I'll just leave quietly now, before this blows up.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I don't like Rhaegar at all because he fell in love with the wrong woman and acted on it. He was the crown prince of the realm and was married with two children so the obvious thing for him to do was to blindly follow his emotions and and cheat on his wife and so plunge the realm into a war that killed many thousands of people and destroyed his family. True, Aerys' madness was a major reason but if you ask me most of the blame lies with Rhaegar.

Edited by Stannis Eats No Peaches, 25 June 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[Swordsaint]

I think we'll have to wait for the prequel for all the rebellion speculation. Yes, I do think George will write one, or at least there will be a huge movie made, or something dammit!! It could also be the first movie I'll remember where Sean Bean doesn't die assuming they can make him look young enough for the role.

Edited by Swordsaint, 25 June 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Stannis Eats No Peaches, on 25 June 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I don't like Rhaegar at all because he fell in love with the wrong woman and acted on it. He was the crown prince of the realm and was married with two children so the obvious thing for him to do was to blindly follow his emotions and and cheat on his wife and so plunge the realm into a war that killed many thousands of people and destroyed his family. True, Aerys' madness was a major reason but if you ask me most of the blame lies with Rhaegar.

Royal kings and princes Cheat with noble ladies all the time. Look at Aegon IV and his great bastards...or Edric Storms parents

Hes the crown prince and can lay with whoever he damn well pleases.

Even after the killing of Rickard and Co. Jon Arryn didn't raise his banners until Aerys called for Robert and Neds heads

The blame is solely on Aerys

Edited by QuentynTheBlazed, 25 June 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Pod The Impaler]

Rinso, on 25 June 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Personally, I blame Rhaegar as much as Aerys. He is really the catalyst of all that happened. And he should have known better.

A bowl of brown, on 25 June 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Its hard to tell as there's so much we don't know about the Rebellion. However I do think it's probable that Rhaegar was overly obsessed with the PtwP prophecy and neglected his duty to the realm in some regards.

I agree with both of these.

"They" say he threw over his Martell wife out of love or lust, depending whether you believe the romantic "he seduced her and they ran off" or the nefarious "he kidnapped and raped her" version of events. Either way, this points to an extremely irresponsible act, one which pitted the royal family against the Houses of Stark and Baratheon, and eventually Arryn and Tully. Not to mention that if it was not for the sake of the royal children, how do think the Martell's really felt about Elia being put aside for a younger woman like she was a bit of stale meatloaf? (Martell motivations are a bit strange - as insults to family honour go, this is a huge one.)

But even if the love/lust element is nonsense, and Rhaegar did it because he was obsessed with the prophecy, and that's the real reason why he humiliated Elia to get with Lyanna, that hubris still leads to the realm in flames and the doom of his house. All the Targ rulers prior to Dany seem obsessed with the same thing, only in different ways, and in this respect Rhaegar may have been no different.

[LordBloodraven]

QuentynTheBlazed, on 25 June 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Royal kings and princes Cheat with noble ladies all the time. Look at Aegon IV and his great bastards...or Edric Storms parents

Hes the crown prince and can lay with whoever he damn well pleases.

Even after the killing of Rickard and Co. Jon Arryn didn't raise his banners until Aerys called for Robert and Neds heads

The blame is solely on Aerys

What? Rhaegar kidnapped the daughter of a high lord, was holed up in some tower with Lyanna in Dorne while his wife and kids were in KL, came out of his hiding after two Hands had been sacked and the Royalists routed, and pretended to settle it all with a duel with Robert fucking Baratheon (6ft6, muscled like a maiden's fantasy and with a giant hammer). He might as well have tried to soothe all the suffering he has caused by stringing some tunes with his harp.

[Lady Hodor]

Well he did kind of kidnap Lyanna too...

[Alex Baratheon]

I blame him as much as I blame Aerys...

He kidnapped Lyanna...

[Quentyn the Blazed]

LordBloodraven, on 25 June 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

What? Rhaegar kidnapped the daughter of a high lord, was holed up in some tower with Lyanna in Dorne while his wife and kids were in KL, came out of his hiding after two Hands had been sacked and the Royalists routed, and pretended to settle it all with a duel with Robert fucking Baratheon (6ft6, muscled like a maiden's fantasy and with a giant hammer). He might as well have tried to soothe all the suffering he has caused by stringing some tunes with his harp.

Rhaegar went off on a secluded vacation with his paramour. Perfectly within his right...Sure Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, but they weren't married yet, and i'm sure the royal family can veto betrothals (though it would be helpful if they let people know that)

He finally comes back into contact with KL and finds out that there's a rebellion. Not his fault.

Also, how did people come to believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna? Who knew about Rhaegar's involvement in Lyanna's disappearance? What proof did they have of a kidnapping?

NOT Rhaegar's fault.

EDIT: Rhaegar's actions led to Brandon challenging him to a duel.  NOT a rebellion.  Big difference.

Edited by QuentynTheBlazed, 25 June 2012 - 02:35 PM.

[Dragon-Wolf]

First I have to say that despite not being in the series Rhaegar is one of my favorite characters, I know he pretty much splits us down the line in regard to wheteher he is liked or not, but I think he is an exellently conceived and tragic character.

But even I would have to conceed that from what we know of the principle events of the rebellion, he is as much to blame as his batshit crazy father if not more.

What was the guy thinking when he decided to put moves on Lyanna? because lets face it most of us would consider the betrothed of a lord such as King Bob, OFF LIMITS!!!

Robert Baratheon was pretty hard back then, 6"6 and about 250-270lbs and handy with his big hammer, pretty quick to anger too.

So much of what is told is from the side of the usurpers and I feel that going forward we will learn that there was more to it than him "kidnapping and raping Lyanna"

But additionally there are many other questions to be asked of his character,

Such as......

The circumstances of him being married with two young children, yet still eloping with or (kidnapping if you prefer) Lyanna.

The whole PTWP prophecy and the lengths that it influenced an (allegedly, considerate) characer to act without caring for the consequences.

Really looking forward to learning of his motives.

[The Last Reyne]

Yes. Even if his whatever it was he did with Lyanna was concensual or for some greater good it still began the events the led to the rebellion so he has to share some of the blame.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

QuentynTheBlazed, on 25 June 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Rhaegar went off on a secluded vacation with his paramour. Perfectly within his right...Sure Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, but they weren't married yet, and i'm sure the royal family can veto betrothals (though it would be helpful if they let people know that)

He finally comes back into contact with KL and finds out that there's a rebellion. Not his fault.

Also, how did people come to believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna? Who knew about Rhaegar's involvement in Lyanna's disappearance? What proof did they have of a kidnapping?

NOT Rhaegar's fault.

EDIT: Rhaegar's actions led to Brandon challenging him to a duel.  NOT a rebellion.  Big difference.

Well, because she was already betrothed to another man and was 'kidnapped' at swordpoint, it was definitely not a secluded vacation with his paramour. He might have been the crown prince, but that doesn't mean he can pick up every highborn lady by saying; ''Hey! Let's go on a secluded vacation, I don't care if you're betrothed to the Lord of an important House!''
Wouldn't that be a sight.. He's not a god, he's bound by rules and norms. He knew that and he still broke them.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Lady Sansa Stark, on 25 June 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well, because she was already betrothed to another man and was 'kidnapped' at swordpoint, it was definitely not a secluded vacation with his paramour. He might have been the crown prince, but that doesn't mean he can pick up every highborn lady by saying; ''Hey! Let's go on a secluded vacation, I don't care if you're betrothed to the Lord of an important House!''
Wouldn't that be a sight.. He's not a god, he's bound by rules and norms. He knew that and he still broke them.

I am 100% sure Lyanna wasn't kidnapped.

Its no use arguing in circles about it, just accept that I am right and wait until TWOW (hopefully) or ADOS to find out why

[Independent George]

Rhaegar's fault? No. Rhaegar's responsibility? Hell yes.

Rhaegar knew Aerys was nuts, so once Tywin departed, much of the responsibility for the realm's well-being fell on his shoulders by default. He may not have been able to forsee the specific events that shook out, but he absolutely had to know that disappearing with the daughter of one great house, betrothed to the Lord of a second, while married to a third, would have resulted in major political fallout.

It almost doesn't matter if it was consensual or kidnapping; it was wrong either way, and was guaranteed to have far-ranging consequences even if his father wasn't completely insane.