70 replies to this topic

[Winter's Knight]

ASoIaF excites some powerful opinions in all of us and this can (and has) led to some heated discussions amongst fans.

I thought it would be interesting if we tried arguing sympathetically for a character we don't like. For instance, the anti-Cats would argue in her favour and so on.
Grey characters only-so Joff, Ramsay and Gregor are out.

I'll start with Robert B.:

The eldest son of a great House, Robert had almost every blessing-strength, beauty, wealth.  But he doesn't seem to have had any stability as a youth. He lost his parents at an early age and never managed to bond with his blood-brothers. His only family growing up seems to have been his foster brother Ned: quiet, serious, solemn, loyal Ned who always stood by him.

Then came Lyanna-wild, beautiful Lyanna, his best friend's sister. Wedding her would have made him and Ned brothers in truth if Rhaegar had not thought to snatch his rights.

Robert was not a cruel man but he was vengeful. Rhaegar had taken the woman he loved and he made Seven Kingdoms bleed in compensation.

Then he weds Cersei and for the first time he is faced with a woman who doesn't fall for his charm, a woman who seems to scorn him. He is not used to being disliked and to be rebuffed by two women who should by rights have been his and in such quick succession combined with the rigorous demands of the kingdom and Ned's anger at the death of the Targerayen children drove him further into drink and debauchery.

Robert's troubles are perhaps all the more pitiable for being his own fault. To look upon a wife that hates you, an heir no better than the king you deposed and to realise daily that you are responsible for it-that is pitiable.

[butterbumps!]

.......  "[Daenerys] was.......often pleasant."  





(more later, but I couldn't resist )

[Buckwheat]

Does Bronn fall into the category of "grey characters"? If so, him.

He lived in a very unfair world where the lowborns have almost no rights, they are supposed to listen to "their betters by rights of birth" and put up with their wars, their struggles and never complain. We do not know much about Bronn's past, but we can assume he did not have it easy in his life. He probably lost his family and home early in his youth and was forced to learn to take care of himself by himself. Probably he also experienced war and became desensitised for the pains and hurts of other people, he faced death and destruction and had nobody to tell him how to deal with it.

So he became a sellsword by chance just because it helped him survive somehow - maybe he joined some older experienced fighter as a squire. That person - or more such persons - was not too good role model either, but he got some protection from them and he thought their ways were the only possible to survive. When they died, like his family before, he was alone again, but richer for some lessons. He now thought that cruelty, ruthlessness, and constant struggle must be the only way of surviving in this world, because nobody taught him otherwise.

So we should not judge him because he is cruel and traitorous and selfish and thinks only about himself - we should judge the society that allowed such people to evolve, insted of helping them.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Catelyn was under a lot of grief...Ned died, her father was dying, her sister refused to join Robb's cause, her two younger son's were believed dead, Sansa was being held captive, she hadn't heard anything about Arya, and Robb was now the King in the North going into battles all the time.

I can understand why she didn't thoroughly think about the consequence before releasing Jaime.

[Natalie_S]

Cersei has been treated like a political pawn by her father since her early childhood, when she was educated to behave "like a lady" and never been able to follow her warrior instincts. Therefore all her dreams and ambitions have always been frustrated.
She's been left without a motherly figure that could have told her how to deal with the female condition in Westeros.
Also, being a lady apparently isn't a task worthy enough to earn her the fatherly approval she's always been looking for.

She's been married against her will to a drunkard that cheated on her since the first day (and, with his mind, even during their very wedding night). No wonder she's grown bitter and tends to act recklessly once she's in a position of power.
Also she tries so hard to get Tyrion killed because she genuinely believes that he's guilty and in her mind it's just to prevent him from spreading violence and murder throough the Seven Kingdoms.

So Cersei is actually a victim.

[Frey Pie]

Darius probably had a rough childhood. Im guessing he got beat around as a kid. Then he joined up some mercenaries, got a nice bit of loot and decided to fill in the gaps with a bit of gold. I suppose he does kind of seem to care about Dany and picked her flowers and stuff so hes not all bad. He obviously appreciates the beauty of women, otherwise he wouldnt carry around those two reminders with him the whole time. As a kid he never stuck out, so hes compensating by dyeing his hair blue the whole time in an attempt to stand out amongst his piers.

Hes been loyal so far to Dany and seems a competent commander. Capable of following orders as shown by his successful alliance with the Lhazereen....

That hurt!!

[brashcandy]

Not calling Jon by his name for 14 yrs until the one time when she can inflict maximum pain was just Cat's way of dealing with the indignity her husband forced her to endure by keeping his bastard son at Winterfell.

Ughhhh, sorry, WK, this exercise is too painful...

[Natalie_S]

Come on, try walking in MY shoes!
Shower me with some Tyrion love!!!

[ARYa_Nym]

I like Jaime's comment about Brandon. That's the only nice thing I could think of.

Quote

    "Brandon was different from his brother, wasn't he? He had blood in his veins instead of cold water. More like me."    

Robert saw his parents die which is very sad.

[Natalie_S]

Catelyn is actually very nice and sympathetic considering that she grew up with Littlefinger, her sister and Walder Frey.

[Winter's Knight]

Natalie_S, on 26 June 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Come on, try walking in MY shoes!
Shower me with some Tyrion love!!!

Tyrion is a good man who has been let down by the people who should have been his family.  It takes a very strong will to resist breaking under the emotional trauma Tywin put him through as a child: the snide remarks, the put-downs, the constant reminders that, no matter how hard he tried, Tyrion would never amount to anything in his father's eyes. His brother joined the KG when Tyrion was only eleven, leaving him to grow up with a father who hated him and a sister who blamed him for her mother's death.

All this combined with Tysha led Tyrion to a very painful realisation: the world would only love him because he was a Lannister-the same reason his family hated him.

Whatever his faults may be, I can say from personal experience that one of the worst things a child can go through is having a disability and a family who doesn't love you. The depression and self-doubt it breeds, the thought that maybe, just maybe everyone else is right and that you were born to be a curse and a burden to your nearest and dearest-it's not surprising that he ends up closing people off.

[LordBloodraven]

Tywin was the scion of an old House but had to suffer bannermen mocking his father and his family while borrowing money without bothering to reimburse. His father Tytos was a third son and so was never expected to rule the Rock and it was apparent during his tenure. His mother must have died early since Tytos kept demi-mondaines and the likes while he at 20, was governing the 7 Kingdoms with an increasingly paranoid king. While Tytos would feast hedge knights and throw an orgy at the Rock, Tywin pulled the roots of two Houses that openly defied the Lannisters and kidnapped two family members, and that, at barely 20. He was so good at ruling that the king hated him for it and insulted him by refusing his daughter to the crown prince and by snatching his heir from him. With the death of his wife, Tywin became bitter and bitter, caring only for his House. His daughter became the Queen consort and his grandsons, kings and princesses.

Tywin was neglected as a child, but was conscious of his station. He restored the power of the Lannisters, ruled the kingdom for 20 years, and made of his grandchildren, kings and princesses. Men were in awe of him when they would laugh at his father; men trembled at the roar of the lion where they would view it as a meeeoooow while his father ruled; men would pay their debts or dread what would come to them where they would borrow more when his father ruled.

[Lady Hodor]

Ramsay.... Ramsay Bolton was... He had some... There was... His state in... No, no, no sorry, it cannot be done!

[Winter's Knight]

Lady Hodor, on 26 June 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Ramsay.... Ramsay Bolton was... He had some... There was... His state in... No, no, no sorry, it cannot be done!

I did say Ramsay isn't allowed.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

The North remembers. Thank the Seven that the Twins are below the neck. Roslin Tully and her child are innocent, for example the kid wasn't born out of lust or alcohal. The Red Wedding was carefully planned out and was the only to get back at the greedy backstabbing Starks. Roslin had no choice in the matter, besides alot of marriages start off with a lie, just look at Tysha. For sure the Wedding was vile and barbaric, but is that the fault of Roslin Tully the bride? Roslin Tully must give birth to that child so that a Frey can rule the Riverlands. Who else is there? The honorable, nice, heroic, awsome protaginists? No they're too wolfish. If Roslin and her kid does die it should be after the birth. That way Edmure can die. Also some Northerners would one day kill Roslin in a brutel terrible manner which would cause (a.) The Mountian to to look good in comparisson, which he deserves and (b.) Some fake wanna be Young Griff's will come along saying their Roslin's kids and the name Frey will live on forever!

[Winterfellian]

I'll take Jorah Mormont:

Jorah may be flawed but he's not a bad man, he's just being a bear. Sorry couldn't resist Now for real:

When he agreed to betray Dany and Viserys he didn't know them, at least not Dany. When face with the choice of Dany's death with the wine seller incident he chose Dany. He probably only continued to betray her a while longer driven by his desperation to go home.
When he finally comes around he becomes completely loyal to Dany and despite of his attracttion to her he's always willing to advise her even when it involves telling her something she doesn't want to hear. Part of Dany's success is due to all the good advice she's received from Jorah.

About Lynesse, we can commend him for always putting her well being above his own to the point that it led to his exile.

Winter's knight I hope you can appreciate this was very hard to write!

[StannisBamfatheon]

Danaerys is young and makes mistakes, ruling takes time.  The only window/information source Danaerys had for Westeros, her family, and really knowledge of any kind for 90% of her life came from her deluded and tragic brother Viserys.  She may scream "My dragons!" and "Fire and blood!" alot but it's her lineage and what mader her family strong.  She has some great strides in mercy with pangs of greatness here and there, sacking the cities and freeing them....sacrificing love  by marrying whats his name, hizdarh lo....ra.... lo....ra.... oh whats the point.  In time she may become a true savior to Westeros but for now she is still "a girl who knows little of the ways of war"

[Winter's Knight]

Winterfellian, on 26 June 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Winter's knight I hope you can appreciate this was very hard to write!

Oy, I just spoke in defence of King Bob-I know how it feels. T_T

But seriously, I think it helps to see the other side of the argument-I dislike him a little less now.

[Winterfellian]

Winter, on 26 June 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Oy, I just spoke in defence of King Bob-I

Touche!

[Daughter of Dragons]

Alright....I'll take Viserys. He was whisked away along-side his pregnant mother at the tender age of eight. His mother dies in childbirth and then all he has left is Dany. As a child, he is shuffled from place to place always at the mercy of others. He feels a deep sense of entitlement of course because it was his family who has sat upon the Iron Throne for the past 300 or so years. Being the last male of his line he feels it necessary to take the future of his House and The Seven Kingdoms upon his back. It couldn't have felt great to be an orphan with a younger sister to protect and to have to beg, borrow, and even sale his mother's crown. Most things that he did were often done out of desperation. Actually, Viserys is truly too trusting....believing in the lies that Ilyrio tells him. To make matters worse, I believe he was touched with the streak of Targaryen madness....that was genetics and no fault of his own. Feeling that all other avenues were exhausted he agreed to marry Dany to the Dothraki in hopes that he would be able to return to Westeros and avenge his family as well as claim his birthright. When he feels that Drogo will not move forward he acts once again out of desperation. Viserys, in essence, was just a tragic victim of the circumstances of his life.