Martell and Stark - Crackpot

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Yeah but that has cooled down the last century or so, since Dorne joined the 7. Oberyn injuring Wilas has hurt relations but they did side together in Roberts rebellion and there have been no real hostilities in this war. Oberyn dieing kind of takes him out of the equation and Wilas needs a wife and it would strengthen both houses but you are right the bad blood might keep them from doing something thats beneficial and rational.

There was tension between the two families when Oberyns came to KL for Joffs nuptials, as far as I can remember. Willas and Oberyn did keep in touch but Tyrells still blame Oberyn for crippling Willa's (Sansa's chat with Olenna Redwyne)

[tze]

What hints? The only hints I picked up were Jon and Val.

Parts of this have been posted elsewhere, but I'll stick them in here as well:

The sigil of House Martell includes a spear and a red sun. Jon's first love, Ygritte, was a spearwife. (Spearwives have been heavily associated with Starks and Winterfell---Osha, a spearwife, rescues Bran and Rickon, and Mance brings a group of spearwives into Winterfell to rescue "Arya"). When Jon finds Ghost in ASOS, right before the LC election, he says Ghost's "eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns."

In ADWD, when Jon is thinking about Val, he thinks of her as "A warrior princess . . . not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her." In AFFC, we have an Arianne chapter literally called "The Princess in the Tower". Arianne spends most of that chapter trying desperately to rescue herself from imprisonment in the Spear Tower. Arianne actually makes greater efforts to escape her tower imprisonment than Val does hers, thus fulfilling the spirit of Jon's declaration by, in a twisted way, adhering to the word of it (she's waiting for a knight to rescue her, yet she's doing her damnest to force the knights to come in the first place).

If R+L=J, then Jon was born in Dorne. Both he and Arianne would have had two siblings that they were not close to (for Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane, for Jon, Rhaenys and Aegon). Both would have been portrayed as being much closer to their cousins than to those siblings, to the point where those cousins essentially were their siblings---for Arianne, the Sand Snakes, for Jon, the Stark children. Moreover, when Arianne is imprisoned in the Spear Tower, she goes over her options and decides to seek help from Lord Fowler, the Warden of the Prince's Pass. The Tower of Joy, where Jon was almost certainly born, is located in the Prince's Pass.

In AFFC, Arianne has an affair with the "white knight" Ser Arys Oakheart. The Kingsguard's vows heavily parallel portions of the Night's Watch vows. House Oakheart is associated with trees, just like the Starks, and Arys and Arianne have this little convo in "The Soiled Knight" chapter

“I swore a vow...”

“... not to wed or father children. Well, I have drunk my moon tea, and you know I cannot marry you.”

Arianne goes on to tell Arys about a way for him to be released from those vows. If Jon gets released from his vows, such that he would be in a position to marry, then the entire Arys Oakheart/Arianne affair would serve to foreshadow a relationship between Jon and Arianne.

Jon's favorite sister is Arya (and say "Arya" and "Arianne" aloud---the two names are extremely similar). Ghost's sister (Arya's direwolf) is Nymeria, who was named after Arianne Nymeros Martell's ancestor, the warrior queen Nymeria. Nymeria's star is white, the color of snow and one of the two Stark colors (and the same color as Ghost). When Jon was young, he idolized the Young Dragon, the guy who conquered Dorne---yet the whole point of the Young Dragon/Dareon II story seems to be that you cannot conquer Dorne . . . you marry it.

Ghost is known as the silent direwolf. In the Spear Tower, Arianne repeats, over and over, the fact that she is surrounded by silence.

Arianne is, frankly, heavily associated with bastards. She's closer to her bastard cousins than she is to her trueborn siblings. She apparently lost her virginity to Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace, who went so far as to ask her father for her hand in marriage.

Arianne told her father she wanted "a consort with teeth". When thinking about a former betrothal (to old Ben Beesbury), she thinks, kind of redundantly, about how "she could not be forced to marry him if he was dead". There seem to be heavy Jon-centric foreshadowings (given his direwolf and his stabbing in ADWD) in both statements.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Aren't you overreaching a bit? I feel like you could use logic like that to hookup hodor and gatehouse ami. Mind you, I'd love a Jon /Arianne combo.

[tze]

Aren't you overreaching a bit? I feel like you could use logic like that to hookup hodor and gatehouse ami.

No, I'm not overreaching.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Yea, you are kinda. Those hints are just sorta wierdly extrapolated and not hints at all.

[tze]

Yea, you are kinda. Those hints are just sorta wierdly extrapolated and not hints at all.

No. And if you'd like to discuss something, specifics would be lovely. You merely saying something's "weirdly extrapolated" does not actually make it "weirdly extrapolated".

[Lady Arianne Martell]

Well you mention the silence thing. That's a little far out . Just because ghost is silent and arianne mentions shes surrounded by silence does NOT mean it has to do with ghost. I don't get that line of thought....

[tze]

Well you mention the silence thing. That's a little far out . Just because ghost is silent and arianne mentions shes surrounded by silence does NOT mean it has to do with ghost. I don't get that line of thought....

It's one factor among many, many other factors. Alone, it's not dispositive, as nothing, alone, is dispositive. Taken together with everything else, I think it looks like a hint.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

The way you phrase it anything could be a hint. Arianne wearing a white dress could be a hint. Jon drinking Dornish wine could be a hint . Idk, these hints seem too subtle to be hints, more like coincedences.

[mythsandstuff]

Mileage is gonna vary big time on this one: the biggest reason I don't see Jon marrying Dany, or Arianne, or anyone with a title, is that being a bastard is such a huge part of his identity. I don't see him letting that go completely, and while I'm not saying he wouldn't see himself as deserving of a lady with a title, I just don't think he would be that into that* - I do think the passage comparing Val to Arianne is intentional, but I think it's there to point out that he wouldn't be interested in her, rather than to foreshadow that he will.

Grain of salt: I am on Team Sarella, if we're shipping Jon off to the Martells, so I may be just a teensy bit biased.

* ETA this: there's a reason we get so much about Catelyn's resentment of Jon - I think it goes both ways, and he resents the hell out of her too. Just as that resentment/treatment recurs as a topic around here again and again, I don't think he's going to be able to let it go in choosing a partner.

[Faint]

I don't see it myself. I think Arianne Martell is one of the better candidates to be Jon's wife, provided he marries, but I don't think there has been heavy foreshadowing for it.

[tze]

The way you phrase it anything could be a hint. Arianne wearing a white dress could be a hint. Jon drinking Dornish wine could be a hint . Idk, these hints seem too subtle to be hints, more like coincedences.

Arianne wearing a white dress could be a hint. Jon drinking Dornish wine could be a hint. GRRM loves giving us sutble hints, as these boards have proven time and time again, and these are not the sort of books where little things frequently turn out to be coincidences---quite the opposite, actually.

[Lady Arianne Martell]

But the hints I've seen for other occurences seem more forward than these. I'm not sayin its impossible just very out there.

[Faint]

I think the better argument goes like this:

Elia Martell, her children, and Quentyn Martell have now all died, at least partly, on account of actions taken either by Jon's parents or Daenerys herself. Dorne, when they find out about Quentyn, will probably be seething about this state of affairs.

Now imagine if Aegon is revealed as a fake and/or dies and Jon is the last surviving son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

Finally, Daenerys believes herself to be infertile.

What is the most likely solution to this conundrum?

[David C. Hunter]

while I would like to see Starks and Martells "working" together, unfortunately there aren't many Starks left. Sansa is missing, Rickon is missing, Bran is missing and Arya is missing. We all know where they are, but Martells don't know that.

maybe Aegon will marry Sansa and through that he'll get the whole north. The northeners would accept him through Ned's daughter that Boltons.

Rickon is returning with a potential Skagosi army. Bran is a God at this point. Arya is also returning. I feel like the North will be united by the time TWOW is over. At this point Jon and the North will probably make thier actions known via Ravens to the other Kingdoms. Arianne Martell for all intents and purposes is the leader of Dorne right now. She has got to hear about Jon Snow/Targaryan/Stark at some point. If her connection to Aegon does not work out, she has to look North or go back home.

Dorne has different customs than the rest of Westeros, do we even know if they approve of marrying first cousins? Besides, war with the Lannisters at this point is just not worth it. the only bad one was Cersei and she got hers.

Indeed, but rationality isn't Westeros' strong point. The Martells will not stop until the Lannisters are no more. The North has different customs from the rest of Westeros as well. It can work out.

I think Dorne/Arianne will side with Aegon initially. If indeed GRRM has stuck future hints in the game of cyvasse, well . . .

And Aegon is the character associated with elephants.

But I think Aegon will die during the inevitable Dany/Aegon clash (GRRM has heavily implied, if not outright stated, that we'll have a second Dance of the Dragons), and since the Martells won't want to bend the knee to Dany, the woman they'll inevitably blame for Quentyn's death, I think a Martell/Stark alliance will blossom upon Aegon's death. There are loads and loads of hints pointing toward Jon/Arianne, so I'll honestly be shocked if they don't end up together at some point.

I like this theory alot because there is no way the Martells and Dorne will side with Stormborn.

Yeah but that has cooled down the last century or so, since Dorne joined the 7. Oberyn injuring Wilas has hurt relations but they did side together in Roberts rebellion and there have been no real hostilities in this war. Oberyn dieing kind of takes him out of the equation and Wilas needs a wife and it would strengthen both houses but you are right the bad blood might keep them from doing something thats beneficial and rational.

Honor and pride before rationale in these times my friend. Every Dornishmen hates the Tyrells even if they no longer know why.

It is definitely not impossible but the only marriage that would settle this alliance would be Sansa Stark and Quentyn Martell since I do not see Arianne marrying Bran or Rickon. If this alliance ever occurs I would think it's going to be much further down the road since Sansa is basically incapable and maybe unwilling to leave the safety of the Vale.

Maybe Sansa Stark and Trystane.

This is all speculative because TWOW seems to be the most unpredictable book ever but I believe in ADOS the Martells and Starks have a ood chance of getting together.

Parts of this have been posted elsewhere, but I'll stick them in here as well:

The sigil of House Martell includes a spear and a red sun. Jon's first love, Ygritte, was a spearwife. (Spearwives have been heavily associated with Starks and Winterfell---Osha, a spearwife, rescues Bran and Rickon, and Mance brings a group of spearwives into Winterfell to rescue "Arya"). When Jon finds Ghost in ASOS, right before the LC election, he says Ghost's "eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns."

In ADWD, when Jon is thinking about Val, he thinks of her as "A warrior princess . . . not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her." In AFFC, we have an Arianne chapter literally called "The Princess in the Tower". Arianne spends most of that chapter trying desperately to rescue herself from imprisonment in the Spear Tower. Arianne actually makes greater efforts to escape her tower imprisonment than Val does hers, thus fulfilling the spirit of Jon's declaration by, in a twisted way, adhering to the word of it (she's waiting for a knight to rescue her, yet she's doing her damnest to force the knights to come in the first place).

If R+L=J, then Jon was born in Dorne. Both he and Arianne would have had two siblings that they were not close to (for Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane, for Jon, Rhaenys and Aegon). Both would have been portrayed as being much closer to their cousins than to those siblings, to the point where those cousins essentially were their siblings---for Arianne, the Sand Snakes, for Jon, the Stark children. Moreover, when Arianne is imprisoned in the Spear Tower, she goes over her options and decides to seek help from Lord Fowler, the Warden of the Prince's Pass. The Tower of Joy, where Jon was almost certainly born, is located in the Prince's Pass.

In AFFC, Arianne has an affair with the "white knight" Ser Arys Oakheart. The Kingsguard's vows heavily parallel portions of the Night's Watch vows. House Oakheart is associated with trees, just like the Starks, and Arys and Arianne have this little convo in "The Soiled Knight" chapter

Arianne goes on to tell Arys about a way for him to be released from those vows. If Jon gets released from his vows, such that he would be in a position to marry, then the entire Arys Oakheart/Arianne affair would serve to foreshadow a relationship between Jon and Arianne.

Jon's favorite sister is Arya (and say "Arya" and "Arianne" aloud---the two names are extremely similar). Ghost's sister (Arya's direwolf) is Nymeria, who was named after Arianne Nymeros Martell's ancestor, the warrior queen Nymeria. Nymeria's star is white, the color of snow and one of the two Stark colors (and the same color as Ghost). When Jon was young, he idolized the Young Dragon, the guy who conquered Dorne---yet the whole point of the Young Dragon/Dareon II story seems to be that you cannot conquer Dorne . . . you marry it.

Ghost is known as the silent direwolf. In the Spear Tower, Arianne repeats, over and over, the fact that she is surrounded by silence.

Arianne is, frankly, heavily associated with bastards. She's closer to her bastard cousins than she is to her trueborn siblings. She apparently lost her virginity to Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace, who went so far as to ask her father for her hand in marriage.

Arianne told her father she wanted "a consort with teeth". When thinking about a former betrothal (to old Ben Beesbury), she thinks, kind of redundantly, about how "she could not be forced to marry him if he was dead". There seem to be heavy Jon-centric foreshadowings (given his direwolf and his stabbing in ADWD) in both statements.

I really really like these finds. I appreciate you reposting them.

I think the better argument goes like this:

Elia Martell, her children, and Quentyn Martell have now all died, at least partly, on account of actions taken either by Jon's parents or Daenerys herself. Dorne, when they find out about Quentyn, will probably be seething about this state of affairs.

Now imagine if Aegon is revealed as a fake and/or dies and Jon is the last surviving son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

Finally, Daenerys believes herself to be infertile.

What is the most likely solution to this conundrum?

To find the Ice Dragon. This is also a good one. I wonder if Dany will just allow them to leave?

[thewingedwolf]

Maybe Sansa Stark and Trystane.

I meant Trystane, I apologize

[jarl the climber]

There was tension between the two families when Oberyns came to KL for Joffs nuptials, as far as I can remember. Willas and Oberyn did keep in touch but Tyrells still blame Oberyn for crippling Willa's (Sansa's chat with Olenna Redwyne)

The few times we have been given any insights into Dorne they seem overwhelmingly preoccupied with the Lannisters. Kevan beleived that the Tyrells supported the Targaryean monarchy long after their cause was lost, they along with the Dornish were the Targs greatest supporter. Their were some incidents at Kings landing when Oberyn came, but they might have been for the benefit of the Lannisters, it would have been noted if there were not any incidents. I'm sure that there is some bad blood there but I'm not sure it overrides each sides pressing concerns as they have not truly opposed each other so far.

[Rheagar Prime]

i see dorne helping aegon why because of Jon con. He knows he needs allies and when he meets with arianne he will want an alliance she may want marriage but he will still want aegon to get with dany, but they will not refuse her.

[Dahara]

Parts of this have been posted elsewhere, but I'll stick them in here as well:

The sigil of House Martell includes a spear and a red sun. Jon's first love, Ygritte, was a spearwife. (Spearwives have been heavily associated with Starks and Winterfell---Osha, a spearwife, rescues Bran and Rickon, and Mance brings a group of spearwives into Winterfell to rescue "Arya"). When Jon finds Ghost in ASOS, right before the LC election, he says Ghost's "eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns."

In ADWD, when Jon is thinking about Val, he thinks of her as "A warrior princess . . . not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her." In AFFC, we have an Arianne chapter literally called "The Princess in the Tower". Arianne spends most of that chapter trying desperately to rescue herself from imprisonment in the Spear Tower. Arianne actually makes greater efforts to escape her tower imprisonment than Val does hers, thus fulfilling the spirit of Jon's declaration by, in a twisted way, adhering to the word of it (she's waiting for a knight to rescue her, yet she's doing her damnest to force the knights to come in the first place).

If R+L=J, then Jon was born in Dorne. Both he and Arianne would have had two siblings that they were not close to (for Arianne, Quentyn and Trystane, for Jon, Rhaenys and Aegon). Both would have been portrayed as being much closer to their cousins than to those siblings, to the point where those cousins essentially were their siblings---for Arianne, the Sand Snakes, for Jon, the Stark children. Moreover, when Arianne is imprisoned in the Spear Tower, she goes over her options and decides to seek help from Lord Fowler, the Warden of the Prince's Pass. The Tower of Joy, where Jon was almost certainly born, is located in the Prince's Pass.

In AFFC, Arianne has an affair with the "white knight" Ser Arys Oakheart. The Kingsguard's vows heavily parallel portions of the Night's Watch vows. House Oakheart is associated with trees, just like the Starks, and Arys and Arianne have this little convo in "The Soiled Knight" chapter

Arianne goes on to tell Arys about a way for him to be released from those vows. If Jon gets released from his vows, such that he would be in a position to marry, then the entire Arys Oakheart/Arianne affair would serve to foreshadow a relationship between Jon and Arianne.

Jon's favorite sister is Arya (and say "Arya" and "Arianne" aloud---the two names are extremely similar). Ghost's sister (Arya's direwolf) is Nymeria, who was named after Arianne Nymeros Martell's ancestor, the warrior queen Nymeria. Nymeria's star is white, the color of snow and one of the two Stark colors (and the same color as Ghost). When Jon was young, he idolized the Young Dragon, the guy who conquered Dorne---yet the whole point of the Young Dragon/Dareon II story seems to be that you cannot conquer Dorne . . . you marry it.

Ghost is known as the silent direwolf. In the Spear Tower, Arianne repeats, over and over, the fact that she is surrounded by silence.

Arianne is, frankly, heavily associated with bastards. She's closer to her bastard cousins than she is to her trueborn siblings. She apparently lost her virginity to Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace, who went so far as to ask her father for her hand in marriage.

Arianne told her father she wanted "a consort with teeth". When thinking about a former betrothal (to old Ben Beesbury), she thinks, kind of redundantly, about how "she could not be forced to marry him if he was dead". There seem to be heavy Jon-centric foreshadowings (given his direwolf and his stabbing in ADWD) in both statements.

In a Feast for crows Arianne also remembered a day dream from when she was younger

I sat beside the well and pretended that some robber knight had brought me here to have his way with me, she thought, a tall hard man with black eyes and a widow's peak

In a GOT Jon is descirbed as having dark grey eyes that appear black and he has got somewhat harder in the time he's been on the wall.

[mythsandstuff]

In a Feast for crows Arianne also remembered a day dream from when she was younger

In a GOT Jon is descirbed as having dark grey eyes that appear black and he has got somewhat harder in the time he's been on the wall.

I read that as her fantasizing about her uncle Oberyn, who happens to fit the description exactly.