414 replies to this topic

[Pod The Impaler]

A song away, on 28 June 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

I really didn't like it when she backed Joff, partly of course because of the family betrayal, but also because it showed Joff's real character and she still liked him. Yes, as a 12 year old you should have a basic understanding of coward, lying and fighting my younger sister = not cool.

"Should"? Yes. Realistically would? Not so much.
Sansa in AGoT was hated by many for this horrible mistake, at least at first. People seem to have a lot of unrealistic expectations of her as an 11-12 year old tween. A naive girl sides with her charming and popular boyfriend, refusing to see why her own family thinks he's a worthless creep ? Happens all the time in real life; how is it so unusual in this case ?

Easy for us to say as adult observers of her actions she just should have told the truth to King Robert and that would have been that. We do not live in a medieval society. We are not pre-teen girls. But she's a girl, who's having a dream date with the crown prince she's betrothed to one minute, and soon after that the main witness in a trial to see whether her sister or the crown prince is at fault because royal blood has been shed.

Edited by Pod The Impaler, 29 June 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Lady Lea]

A song away, on 28 June 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

I really didn't like it when she backed Joff, partly of course because of the family betrayal, but also because it showed Joff's real character and she still liked him. Yes, as a 12 year old you should have a basic understanding of coward, lying and fighting my younger sister = not cool.

Well, I can understand her not seeing Joff's true colors then and there. Sometimes we are just blinded by our projections. She saw him as a perfect prince, and I can understand her making excuses... she eventually sees the light though...

[ARYa_Nym]

DaughterOfThe9Moons, on 29 June 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

The more GRRM quotes I read about ASoIaF the more I suspect he is being a huge troll. Surely he can't be so obtuse as to think that Jaime and the Hound come across as solely awful characters with few redeeming qualities?! Whatever, GRRM is not that thick. He wrote the characters the way they are for a reason and although every reader can interpret a character and their actions in different ways I think the fact that the majority of readers on these boards either like Jaime and/or Sandor and/or acknowledge that they are less evil than some (most?) of the POV characters and non POV major players supports my GRRM is a troll theory.

He has also expressed surprise that people interpreted the Sansa/Sandor dynamic as potentially romantic ... this from the man who wrote the Beauty and the Beast screenplay lol. I know this point is infinitely debatable but I don't think anyone can deny there is some kind of weird relationship dynamic going on there and what with the unkiss etc that there is at least the potential for some kind of romantic feelings to evolve.

I would put money on the fact that he was having a riotous internal giggle when he let those two gems slip.

He just didn't understand the female attraction to characters like them because they're such troubled individuals which I think is valid. Jaime's "redemption" arc didn't really work for me but maybe it wasn't supposed to make fans love him the way they do. I could sympathize with Tyrion or Cersei before I can with him even though they've arguably done worse things.

He admitted that he played with San/San in the books but he thought it was interesting that fans (& the amount of fans) wanted them to be together at the end.

[Kittyhat]

Lady Kraken, on 27 June 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Hm... I personally haven't seen many arguing this, but ...

<snip>

... Basically, I would argue that Sansa has the makings of an exceptional politician and player

I mean, it's perhaps a little ironic, but after beginning by saying you haven't seen people arguing that Sansa will become a master of intrigue, you more or less made the argument yourself.  Sure, you dressed it up a bit and tried to downplay the intelligence aspect, but it's pretty obvious that to employ all of these strategies you're suggesting, Sansa's going to have to be pretty exceptionally bright.  You can get by on mostly just charm if you only need to gather followers (in the way of would-be King Renly), but if you're going to be a serious player in the Game, that by itself won't cut the mustard.

And see, that's what I'm saying: I see people ... like you ... arguing that she's going to be a serious player, but so far, I haven't seen anything to really make me believe it.  Okay, so she manages to follow along with Littlefinger's reasoning with some help and prompting.  Fine, that's ... pretty good.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, Arya has actually managed to outwit her own mentor of the moment, the "kindly old man," an individual who would most likely eat Littlefinger for breakfast ... even at lying.  Bran is off becoming some sort of super magic tree thing, and Daenerys is turning out to be not only a mother of dragons but also a female version of Alexander the Great!

Do you see where I'm going with this? Sansa's doing pretty well ... for a fairly average little girl in way over her head.  Maybe even really well for that.  But I don't feel she's done anything any of these others couldn't have done, while I don't see any way she could hope to keep up with what they've been doing.  Can you seriously picture Sansa outwitting any of the Faceless, ever? Or forming her own army out of nothing and sacking three cities with it?

It's not that she's a bad kid or deserves some of the hatred that gets directed at her; it's just that she's fairly unexceptional.  Or at least that's how it seems to me so far.

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 June 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[A Schwartz to be reckoned]

A twelve year old girl that wants to be a princess? How selfish and nasty and traitorous can you get? Fact is Sansa has stayed alive and in the game by using the only training she has ever recieved and that is how to be a proper lady. I am paraphrasing here but there was a line somewhere about a lady's courtesy being her armor and Sansa has worn hers well.

[Lady Kraken]

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

I mean, it's perhaps a little ironic, but after beginning by saying you haven't seen people arguing that Sansa will become a master of intrigue, you more or less made the argument yourself.  Sure, you dressed it up a bit and tried to downplay the intelligence aspect, but it's pretty obvious that to employ all of these strategies you're suggesting, Sansa's going to have to be pretty exceptionally bright.  You can get by on mostly just charm if you only need to gather followers (in the way of would-be King Renly), but if you're going to be a serious player in the Game, that by itself won't cut the mustard.

It depends on what you mean by player, I suppose, but I never argued she'd be a "master of intrigue." I already said I don't see her as the behind-the-scenes type. I think she'll be Littlefinger's downfall (who has an already established weakness when it comes to her), and I think we'll see her in an obvious position of power at some point (like Lady of the Vale), perhaps wielding it on her own, perhaps wielding it through a husband/brother/cousin, and I think Martin has given us more than enough to reason to think she'd succeed in this type of role. I actually think Arya is more suited for a Varys/behind-the-scenes type role than Sansa.

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world, Arya has actually managed to outwit her own mentor of the moment, the "kindly old man," an individual who would most likely eat Littlefinger for breakfast ... even at lying.  Bran is off becoming some sort of super magic tree thing, and Daenerys is turning out to be not only a mother of dragons but also a female version of Alexander the Great!

Well, Arya has a magical ability that Sansa does not have, which she uses to pull one over on the Kindly Man. Bran also has magical ability that Sansa does not benefit from. Daenerys also has the equivalent of a Westerosi nuclear weapon behind her. Sansa only has herself. I think Arya is extremely intelligent, probably the most intelligent of all the kids, but I don't think she'd excel in court politics like Sansa. Also, magical ability does not necessarily equal intelligence. Sansa's mentors have all been non-magical, so I think that's where her story is heading. And, personally, I love that about her story. I like the political aspect more than the magical aspect, but that's just my personal taste.

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Can you seriously picture Sansa outwitting any of the Faceless, ever? Or forming her own army out of nothing and sacking three cities with it?

Without magical abilities or dragons? No. But I also couldn't see Daenerys sacking those cities without the dragons either. Look, we're going to disagree here. I think Sansa is quite exceptional in a number of ways, and I think Martin has bigger plans for her than just... I don't know, dying off or getting married, I guess.

Edited by Lady Kraken, 29 June 2012 - 02:10 AM.

[Kittyhat]

Lady Kraken, on 29 June 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Without magical abilities or dragons? No. But I also couldn't see Daenerys sacking those cities without the dragons either. Look, we're going to disagree here. I think Sansa is quite exceptional in a number of ways, and I think Martin has bigger plans for her than just... I don't know, dying off or getting married, I guess.

Except she didn't use them, aside from one ploy that had nothing to with using them as weapons at all.

Arya also used a magical ability Sansa doesn't have (that we know of), yes, but here we're getting to the "so-and-so used X, so it doesn't count" kind of argument.

Okay, so Daenerys used a dragon in one of her ploys, but it was just used in the same way she might have used a priceless but otherwise innocuous artifact ... and later, she used a ship to make a battering ram.  The fact she had these tools at hand to use didn't automatically mean she was going to be able to think of using them in these ways or manuever herself into a position to be able to in the first place.

Arya used a magical ability, but the simple fact that she had the ability didn't automatically presuppose the resourcefulness to use it the way she did, nor the sheer nerve to try.

Sansa had access to Tyrion in King's Landing and could easily have used him as a "tool" to escape it when he was both sympathetic to her plight and actually willing to help her, a much more obvious and accessible tool than the ones used by Daenerys and Arya above.  Did she? No, instead she actively alienated him (as noted elsewhere in this thread) and then just ... blundered along, oblivious to the opportunities that presented themselves.

In short, where Daenerys and Arya are resourceful and alert to opportunities, Sansa is mostly moved about by the resourcefulness of other people.

She may wield power someday, yes, but I'm skeptical that she'll ever be a very capable player ... unless she just turns out to be a late bloomer.

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 June 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Lady Kraken]

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 02:14 AM, said:

Sansa had access to Tyrion in King's Landing and could easily have used him as a "tool" to escape it when he was both sympathetic to her plight and actually willing to help her, a much more obvious and accessible tool than the ones used by Daenerys and Arya above.  Did she? No, she just ... blundered along, oblivious to the opportunities that presented themselves.

She used Dontos instead. And it worked.

Edited by Lady Kraken, 29 June 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[Kittyhat]

Lady Kraken, on 29 June 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

She used Dontos instead. And, well, it worked.

No, Littlefinger used Dontos, who in turn used Sansa ... unaware, of course, that Littlefinger was planning to dispose of him.

Sansa played no active role in her escape via Dontos outside of originally saving his life (one of her best moments, it must be said).  The rest was just her being an unwitting pawn, moved exactly where Littlefinger wanted her to be.

Take Littlefinger out of the above equation, and Sansa does not escape King's Landing.  Period.

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 June 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[Lady Kraken]

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

No, Littlefinger used Dontos, who in turn used Sansa ... unaware, of course, that Littlefinger was planning to dispose of him.

Sansa played no active role in her escape via Dontos outside of originally saving his life (one of her best moments, it must be said).  The rest was just her being an unwitting pawn, moved exactly where Littlefinger wanted her to be.

Take Littlefinger out of the above equation, and Sansa does not escape King's Landing.  Period.

She chooses to go to the godswood after she receives the note. She goes with a knife in hand, fully expecting to get caught or realize she's being set up but risks it anyways. She then chooses to escape the wedding and climb down the cliff with the stumbling drunk guy, risking her life to escape. I don't recall when Littlefinger knocked her unconscious and carried her out of there against her will.

And take Littlefinger out of the equation, and Sansa would have more than likely escaped with the Tyrells.

[Kittyhat]

Lady Kraken, on 29 June 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

She chooses to go to the godswood after she receives the note. She goes with a knife in hand, fully expecting to get caught or realize she's being set up but risks it anyways. She then chooses to escape the wedding and climb down the cliff with the stumbling drunk guy, risking her life to escape. I don't recall when Littlefinger knocked her unconscious and carried her out of there against her will.

All this shows is she's capable of moving where she's directed to go.  She does a fine enough job of it, all things considered, but this was not the plan she had set in motion, nor one she had any real hand in whatsoever.

Quote

And take Littlefinger out of the equation, and Sansa would have more than likely escaped with the Tyrells.

Okay, so she's Olenna's pawn now instead.  I did say Sansa is moved about by the resourcefulness of other people, didn't I?

[Lady Kraken]

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

All this shows is she's capable of moving where she's directed to go.  She does a fine enough job of it, all things considered, but this was not the plan she had set in motion, nor one she had any real hand in whatsoever.

Okay, so she's Olenna's pawn now instead.  I did say Sansa is moved about by the resourcefulness of other people, didn't I?

Well, it's a tool, like you said. Why is using Tyrion an acceptable tool but not Dontos or the Tyrells? Should Arya have shunned Yoren's help in escaping King's Landing because she didn't plan the details?

Also, this is getting nowhere, and I'm going to bed. We shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited by Lady Kraken, 29 June 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[Kittyhat]

Lady Kraken, on 29 June 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

Well yeah, It's a tool, like you said. Why is using Tyrion an acceptable tool but not Dontos or the Tyrells? Should Arya have shunned Yoren's help in escaping King's Landing?

The difference lies in the actions of the characters involved.  While Arya and Daenerys, to continue the earlier example, are both helped at various points, they don't simply sit and wait to be helped or directed at every turn before taking action.  Each takes an active hand in her own destiny, taking bold and resourceful actions where opportunities present themselves.

Sansa has, once again, absolutely nothing to do with her escape aside from being there to be moved and going where she's been directed to go.  Nor did she approach the Tyrells or in any way take an active role in Olenna's plans, aside from carelessly repeating them elsewhere so that they could be foiled.  The one truly obvious opportunity that presented itself that she could have easily actively seized, she instead completely failed to recognize and instead shunned.

Saying that she "chose" Dontos instead assumes that she had anything at all to do with Dontos, aside from initially saving him from Joffrey.  She didn't.  That was entirely Littlefinger's doing, and the only thing Sansa did was bite down on the bait he set out for her and then remain hooked on his line so that she could be properly managed at his leisure.

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 June 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[Fantôme]

ARYa_Nym, on 28 June 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

I don't think Arya's storyline is about being a kick-ass female warrior but he's showing what happens to a child who is put in a position such as hers. I think that's definitely new for fantasy. You can't go long periods seeing rape, torture, and murder and not end up at least a little bit messed up. I think Arya's plot line is genderless. This could have happened to any child in her position. & I looked at your original comment I think it's thought that Arya was safer because she was able to disguise herself as a boy because of what Yoren said but that isn't necessarily true. It was really plot armor that saved her. She was still psychologically scarred though by all she went through.

  

DaughterOfThe9Moons, on 28 June 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

- Min Farshaw, Birgitte, Aviendha - in fact all the maidens of the spear (Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan)
- Mulan (Disney)
- O-Ren Iishi (Kill Bill)
- Princess Mononoke (main character in an Hayao Miyazaki movie of the same name)
- Lisbeth Salander (The Millennium Trilogy by Stieg Larsson)
- Kahlan & Rachel (Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind)
- Juliet (Artemis Fowl series - can't remember authors name) (Eoin Colfer)
- Angua (werewolf) & Susan Sto Helit (Discworld series by Terry Pratchett)

I don't know all of these characters so maybe what I'm going to say is useless, and in that case I apologize ,but ,for those I recognize, I think you're missing the most important thing about Arya, which for me is not becoming a super badass equal to men assassin, but like AryaNym said, being a child lost and exposed to the horrors of war. For me the way she gradually loses any qualms or remorse upon killing is not badass, it's terribly sad.

[Natalie_S]

Personally I like Sansa because she's very realistic.
Not everyone can be a superhero, and almost all the Starks tend to be "more" than the average individual (Robb leads an army at fourteen, Jon becomes commander at...17? Bran is an accomplished warg at 8 etc.. even Rickon is quite precocious considering he's 3 at the start of the series).

Plus I think her arc is more realistic in relation to the woman condition in a medieval-like society: those who actually took wheapons and fought like men were a minority. I suppose the majority of them had to cope with society restrictions without openly defying them and they had to sort of try to use what they had (in Sansa's case her armour of courtesy).
I know that female warrior looks more kick ass, but it's not the only way of being strong.
Also being resilient is an important quality and I think she definitely showed that.
I guess what readers blame Sansa is that she's a very bad player (she trusted the wrong people, made a lot of poor decisions etc...), but that's quite realistic for a 13 year old.
And she's also growing from that point of view, also because LF is the only one who actually takes time to explain her stuff, and doesn't just assume that she realises everything by herself.

Edited by Natalie_S, 29 June 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[Kittyhat]

Natalie_S, on 29 June 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

Personally I like Sansa because she's very realistic.
Not everyone can be a superhero, and almost all the Starks tend to be "more" than the average individual (Robb leads an army at fourteen, Jon becomes commander at...17? Bran is an accomplished warg at 8 etc.. even Rickon is quite precocious considering he's 3 at the start of the series).

Now this I agree with.  I'm not a big fan of Sansa by any stretch, but I don't dislike her and do actually hope she pulls through.  The poor kid really needs a break.

[Nymeria's]

DaughterOfThe9Moons, on 28 June 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Hmm, I have never compared Sansa to Snow White, Sleeping Beauty or Cinderella (hadn't crossed my mind) but you have a point. I think the difference for me is that those characters are quite superficial in that they were all wonderful, good and kind from start to finish. I don't see any character development. Sansa starts off as unlikeable and through her experiences in KL her preconceived notions, idealistic values and illusions are stripped from her one by one, relentlessly and unceasingly. Sansa becomes a better person because of and despite all of her experiences which I don't think we see in the fairy tales. They're more a case of good always triumphs over evil and I think ASoIaF is more complex than that.

Another thought that springs to mind is that although Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty etc probably do have the same idealistic notions as Sansa regarding honour and chivalry, their notions are supported by the events in their stories. All of them actually are saved by their perfect, gallant, dream prince. In Sansa's case her dream prince is the cause of Lady and Ned's deaths, beats her bloody and terrorises her for his own amusement. Instead of a true knight or another prince a drunken fool saves Sansa but it is then revealed he was doing so under the guidance of the ruthless and cunning political mastermind LF. IMO GRRM means to subvert the cliche with Sansa. Fairy tales are the Westeros equivalent of songs and I think Sansa's story arc can be pretty well summed up by LF when he says

"Life is not a song sweetling, someday you'll learn that to your sorrow" (paraphrasing)

As for characters who are similar to/remind me of Arya I can think of quite a few!

- Min Farshaw, Birgitte, Aviendha - in fact all the maidens of the spear (Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan)
- Mulan (Disney)
- O-Ren Iishi (Kill Bill)
- Princess Mononoke (main character in an Hayao Miyazaki movie of the same name)
- Lisbeth Salander (The Millennium Trilogy by Stieg Larsson)
- Kahlan & Rachel (Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind)
- Juliet (Artemis Fowl series - can't remember authors name)
- Angua (werewolf) & Susan Sto Helit (Discworld series by Terry Pratchett)


If anyone can think of characters who are similar to/remind them of Sansa I'd be interested in hearing about them

At the end of the day I don't think many if any of the ASoIaF POV characters are particularly cliched. I think GRRM set out with the deliberate intent to subvert the typical fantasy character cliches.

EDIT: How could I forget Tuon (aka Daughter of the Nine Moons) from WoT by Robert Jordan? She is a BAMF!

This is amazing and well thought out. Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I say that Sansa is like the white swan Odette in Swan Lake. All I meant by the fairytale references is that Sansa, a beautiful girl, misguidedly believes that loyalty,honesty and faithfulness will lead to a happy ending for her and Joff in AGoT. She has been raise to believe this--as, it seems, as most Disney/Fairytale princesses (and in the fairytales those characteristics leads to happy endings). That is where the fairytale ends. She is more complex and tragic than that which is why I picked Swan Lake.

I only know two of the references on your Arya list, Mulan and Lisbeth but it proves my point. Arya is neither of them. Mulan chooses to go to war while Arya is thrust into a war. Lisabeth is completely anti-social because of her experiences--maybe Arya will be like her, but right now Arya adapts. None of those characters are truly mainstream (but I am sure they are all amazing) which means to me that Arya isn't a cliche--which is all I was trying to say.

[Fantôme]

Nymeria, on 29 June 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

I only know two of the references on your Arya list, Mulan and Lisbeth but it proves my point. Arya is neither of them. Mulan chooses to go to war while Arya is thrust into a war. Lisabeth is completely anti-social because of her experiences--maybe Arya will be like her, but right now Arya adapts. None of those characters are truly mainstream (but I am sure they are all amazing) which means to me that Arya isn't a cliche--which is all I was trying to say.

I also know San (princess Mononoke ) and I suppose I see the analogy since she's a child-wolf with a pack but It's not really about Arya's character; and Juliet in Artemis Fowl but , apart for the fact that she can fight , I don't see any resemblance (she's not even a child).

[Gerold_Hightower]

I just love Sansa hate threads. Let's flame her. She does not have a role to play in the game of thrones, except for describing more important characters than herself (Cersei, Littlefinger etc)
Yes I am a hater, send me to the Wall.

[Ice Turtle]

I think that in good and bad Sansa is ordinary.