136 replies to this topic

[The Fallen]

Westeros All Stars

   I was posting on another thread that was asking who was a better fighter: Jorah Mormont or Eddard Stark. Initially, I found it hard to compare the two. I decided that the best way for me would be to try and figure out where each would be placed if we had tiers for fighters. Deciding what tier each would belong to forced me to compare them to the other fighters of Westeros. Neither one of them is a top-tier fighter, in my opinion, like an Arthur Dayne or Jaime Lannister (with two hands). I also don't think the late-great Ned was a second-tier fighter, who I view as a Bronze Yohn Royce or a Bronn, and there's no shame in that. Jorah, however, might be on that second-tier level. After all, this guy is surviving in the East strictly by his fighting ability.

   Needless to say, this got me thinking as to what an All Star team of fighters from Westeros would look like. As a way of separating the fighters I decided to go with a model that's used in the U.S. sports world; the All-Star teams, specifically the NBA (National Basketball Association). Their model uses three level of All-Stars; first, second and third teams. As each team consists of five individuals there are only 15 positions available in which to place fighters. I also came up with some simple rules:

We can only pick fighters active from Robert's Rebellion through present day Westeros. I did this for two reasons; first, I'm not an expert in this field and especially on the older fighters who were around decades and centuries before the story begins (I'm more interested in this generation of fighters), and second, opening it up to too many fighters would make it too complicated (at least for me). Who makes it and who just ends up getting cut?

We'll judge them while at their best during this time period; before any injuries or death. I'm not going to include any tournament results; to me they are akin to the results of a basketball dunk contest or baseball home run derby (not sure what the equivalent would be for soccer fans). They simply show that an individual has a particular skill that they're great at, but it doesn't necessarily translate into the battlefield. When was the last time a battle was decided by a joust? I want real-world fighting experience to be used to judge the fighters.  For those with little fighting experience, we would have to predict how good they can actually be. But I think that lack of experience should drop them below someone with a comparable skill-set, but more experience.

Finally, I don't claim to be an expert and my list is not written in stone, so I'll be looking for those with more knowledge to critique and rearrange. Note: fighters on each Team were not listed in any particular order.
Of course, I would love to see your own lists. And, oh yeah, Ned did not end up on any of the three teams.

First Team All-Star

Arthur Dayne  'The Sword of the Morning'  (I'm going on the testimony of many of Westeros' fighters that Dayne was great. He was also a member of the Kingsguard when it meant something. Not to mention that he almost survived a fight where he was outnumbered. Had Howland Reed not interfered when he did, Dayne kills Ned and then Howland)

Barristan Selmy 'The Bold'  (A member of the Kingsguard, fought great in the War of the Ninepenny Kings and slew Maelys Blackfyre, rescued King Aerys during the Defiance of Duskendale, killed Ser Simon Toyne of the Kingswood Brotherhood in single combat and he also fought valiantly in the Battle of the Trident)

Sandor Clegane 'The Hound'  (His combination of size, strength and ruthlessness makes him a tough fighter, he fought well in the Battle of the Blackwater before being scared off by fire and he's had numerous fights were he's been at a disadvantage and acquitted himself well)

Jaime Lannister 'The Kingslayer'  (His sheer ability makes him a top fighter, as a youngster he fought well against the Kingswood Brotherhood and was knighted by none other than Ser Arthur Dayne for his performance, he's youngest-ever member of the Kingsguard, fought well at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings before he was captured)

Robert Baratheon  (He's a big, strong ruthless fighter who enjoys fighting, fought well during the Rebellion named after him, killed Prince Rhaegar during a one-on-one battle at the Trident)

Second Team All-Star

Gregor Clegane 'The Mountain that Rides'  (He's here not so much for his skill, but his size, strength and brutality is simply too much for most fighters)

Yohn Royce 'Bronze Yohn'  (I might have him too high as not much is known of his accomplishments)

Oberyn Martell 'The Red Viper'  (I have him here mostly because of his performance against The Mountain, where he proved to be a very skilled and intelligent fighter)

Gerold Hightower 'White Bull'  (I honestly don't know a lot about him either, but was a member of the Kingsguard when that meant something and is known for his immense strength)

Luwin Martell  (A member of the Kingsguard, led the Dornish army during the Battle of the Trident where he was mortally wounded before Lyn Corbray kills him)

Third Team All Star

Bronn  (He's a sellsword extreme, fought well against the mountain clans while escorting Tyrion to the Eyrie, killed Ser Vardis Egan as Tyrions champion in a trial by combat, fought well during the Battle of the Green Fork and Battle of the Blackwater for which he was knighted)

Garlan Tyrell  (He led the van for the combined Tyrell-Lannister army during the Battle of the Blackwater where he slew Ser Guyard Morrigan in single combat, he's known for practice-fighting against three or four opponents)

Loras Tyrell 'The Knight of Flowers'  (He fought in the Battle of the Blackwater beside his brother Garlan, he killed Ser Robar Royce and Ser Emmon Cuy as he mistakenly thought they had killed Renly Baratheon)

Jorah Mormont  (He fought well during the Greyjoy Rebellion and was one of the first men through the breach at the siege of Pyke and was knighted, killed one of Khal Drogo's bloodriders in single combat, and he led Dany's army to a win over the Yunkai)

   Admittedly, I'm probably wrong on where some of the guys should be listed. I initially had The Mountain on the 1st team because his size and strength cannot be matched. But I dropped him to the 2nd team in favor of Robert Baratheon, mostly due to the success Oberyn had against him and the fact that Robert in his prime was very formidable. Then there were others like Bronze Yohn and Lewin Martell, who we don't have a lot of info about, but who seemed to me to belong on the 2nd team when compared against some of the other guys on the list. And initially I had Bronn as a 2nd tier fighter, but he ends up on the 3rd team.

   Then there were the older guys, like Brynden Tully (who distinguished himself during the War of the Ninepenny Kings), that I left out because I wasn't exactly sure of how good they were. I'm also unsure about Rhaegar; some say he was great and gave Robert all he could handle on the Trident, while others say he was merely a good fighter. Maybe you guys can shed some more light on these characters.

[unRobert]

1st Team:
A. Dayne
B. Bold
Smiling Knight
Mountain (Beast Machine)
Red Viper (my favoritism kicking in)

2nd Team:
Kingslayer
King Bob
Hound
G. Hightower
Rhaegar

3rd Team:
Ozzy Whent
B. Swann
Garlan
Loras
Hotah (Might even be 1st team material, but hasn't proven his skills, yet)

honorable mentions:
Darkstar (maybe?)
Maid of Tarth
GreatJon (North needs more rep)
Mance

[The Fallen]

unRobert, on 28 June 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

1st Team:
A. Dayne
B. Bold
Smiling Knight
Mountain (Beast Machine)
Red Viper (my favoritism kicking in)

2nd Team:
Kingslayer
King Bob
Hound
G. Hightower
Rhaegar

3rd Team:
Ozzy Whent
B. Swann
Garlan
Loras
Hotah (Might even be 1st team material, but hasn't proven his skills, yet)

honorable mentions:
Darkstar (maybe?)
Maid of Tarth
GreatJon (North needs more rep)
Mance

   I forgot about Mance Rayder. Him and Hotah come across as tough fighters.

   The Smiling Knight on the 1st team is surprising. So is Balon Swann on the 3rd team. You also have Rheagar pretty high; I can't call it as opinion on him goes both ways. The GreatJon is another guy who seems formidable but with don't have much info on him.

[The Fallen]

I agree that the North is underrepresented, it's probably due to their unpretentiousness. Maybe they can adopt Garlan Tyrell.

[Loose Bolton]

Love the Hotah reference here.

Think Maid of Tarth has proven herself at least top two tier.

Qhorin Halfhand for 2nd tier?

Is this Westeros only?  If not, then Fat Belwas is first tier.

Nymeria the wolf for first tier!

[The Snowman]

If I could have a team of 5 selected to represent/protect me/ or go kill my enemies I'd pick

1. Arthur Dayne (The Sword of the Morning)
2. Jaime Lannister (Pretty much could beat anyone and how he talked about Arthur Dayne adds to how good Dayne was)
3. Barristan Selmy (Entered a tourney at 10! Survived like 5 wars and is still dealing death to my the young and strong of essos)
4. Robert Baratheon (Just a total brute who got through two wars with a warhammer as his weapon. Thats really hard just just becasue its damned heavy but the implications of fighting against swords. Also loved his killing which can only be good for a warrior I suppose)
5. Brandon Stark (the guy was kinda reverred and was pretty big and strangled himself trying to save his father. Thats commitment)

Team 2
1. Sandor Clegane (The Hound)
2, Gregor Clegane (The Mountain)
3. Bronn (Because he's a total beast with a sword)
4. The SmallJon Umber(He's bigger than his dad the GreatJon and considered just as fierce)
5. The Greatjon Umber (Because he's the GreatJon. Laughed about losing to of 2 fingers on his sword hand and still reaped destruction on the battlefield)

Team 3
1. Brienne of Tarth (She seems pretty deadly. Also beat Loras Tyrell in the Melee)
2. Mance Raydar (To become King-Beyond-The-Wall wouldn't be all sweet talk)
3. Oberyn Martell (How he fought The Mountain was pretty impressive. Only lost because he wanted a confession instead of just killing him)
4. Ned Stark (Survived at the vanguard in two wars. Killed Arthur Dayne, although with help, and was doing just fine when having the spar with Jaime Lannister)
5. Gerold Hightower (The White Bull)

Also the North isn't getting high rep in the above lists but then again the North is just 1 Kingdom compared to 6 so it can be okay to only have a couple there

Edited by Snowman93, 28 June 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[( Bloodraven )]

All of them at their prime.

1st team:

• Jaime Lannister
  
• Barristan Selmy
  
• Arthur Dayne
  
• Sandor Clegane
  
• Oberyn Martell

2nd team:

• The Smiling Knight
  
• Qhorin Halfhand
  
• Robert during War of the Usurper
  
• Victarion Greyjoy
  
• Jaqen H'Ghar

3rd team:

• Syrio Forel
  
• Brienne of Tarth
  
• Gregor Clegane
  
• Bronn
  
• Drogo

[The Snowman]

Totally forgot about Drogo......and Syrio

[The Fallen]

Yes, this is Westeros only.

   Who would Brienne unseat on the second team? We both have formidable fighters on the second team. I can't see Brienne taking out The Mountain, Bronze Yohn, The Red Viper, The Hound, Kingslayer, White Bull. Maybe Lewin Martell or Rhaegar, although I don't have the Prince on my 2nd team.

[Loose Bolton]

1st Team:

Arthur Dayne
Barristan
Fat Selwas
Sandor Clegane (the only man that Jaime feared)

2nd team:

Jaime L.
Brienne
Areo Hotah
Khal Drogo
Qhorin Halfhand

3rd Team:

Gregor Clegane
Oberyn Martell
Garlan the Gallant
King Robert

[The Fallen]

Snowman, I can see Victarion making my 3rd team. Brandon Stark is interesting. He was bigger and stronger than Ned and also wilder. There's just not enough information on him. As far as Ned, I'm a big fan (Nedhead?), but there's no way he's one of the top 15 fighters in Westeros.

Edited by The Fallen, 28 June 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[unRobert]

The Fallen, on 28 June 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

   I forgot about Mance Rayder. Him and Hotah come across as tough fighters.

   The Smiling Knight on the 1st team is surprising. So is Balon Swann on the 3rd team. You also have Rheagar pretty high; I can't call it as opinion on him goes both ways. The GreatJon is another guy who seems formidable but with don't have much info on him.

Jaime recalls the Smiling Knight to be twice as mad as the Mountain. There is little said about him, but if I'm making the team I want an absolute madman in the first string. (We do know he's not up to Bold or Dayne, but neither are the rest of my first string). I just figured there have been great knights who aren't currently around (betwix the rebellion and current time) and Smiling Knight sticks out above the rest of the dead.

True about Rhaegar. You got Royce in 2nd team, so we can settle this: Rhaegar vs Bronze Yohn. Winner gets a slot.

I like Balon Swann a lot, and he's one of the few we've seen in action. His mandon moore back-to-back during the Blackwater was sick.

arrggh forgot about Victarion...

Edited by unRobert, 28 June 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[Gerold_Hightower]

First Team
1. Arthur Dayne The Sword of Morning - by far the best
2. Rhaegar Targaryen - tourneys won, battle lost
3. Gerold Hightower - the mountain that has skill
4. Baristan the Bold
5. Oberyn Martell - because he is unpredictably dangerous

Second Team
1. Jaimie Lannister - with both hands
2. The Hound
3. The Mountain
4. Khal Drogo
5. Bronz Yohn Royce - a badass from the Vale

Third Team
1. Victarion Greyjoy  - could be in the place of Bronz
2. Greatjohn Umber
3. The Knight of Flowers
4. Garlan the Galant
5. Bronn

[StannisBamfatheon]

Ned over Jorah all day man.  And how is Rhaegar on your first team but Robert didn't even make any of them???  You know he like....killed Rhaegar in single combat right?  ^^^

[The Fallen]

unRobert, on 28 June 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Jaime recalls the Smiling Knight to be twice as mad as the Mountain. There is little said about him, but if I'm making the team I want an absolute madman in the first string. (We do know he's not up to Bold or Dayne, but neither are the rest of my first string). I just figured there have been great knights who aren't currently around (betwix the rebellion and current time) and Smiling Knight sticks out above the rest of the dead.

True about Rhaegar. You got Royce in 2nd team, so we can settle this: Rhaegar vs Bronze Yohn. Winner gets a slot.

I like Balon Swann a lot, and he's one of the few we've seen in action. His mandon moore back-to-back during the Blackwater was sick.

arrggh forgot about Victarion...

   I just read up on the Smiling Knight and it seems he gave Jaime all he could handle, albeit Jaime was still young, before Arthur Dayne took over. With those credentials I can see him easily making the 2nd team, if not the 1st. But I can't argue with your reasoning.

   Regarding Bronze Yohn, I'm still waiting for someone to point out why he shouldn't be on the 2nd team.

Gerold_Hightower, on 28 June 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

First Team
1. Arthur Dayne The Sword of Morning - by far the best
2. Rhaegar Targaryen - tourneys won, battle lost
3. Gerold Hightower - the mountain that has skill
4. Baristan the Bold
5. Oberyn Martell - because he is unpredictably dangerous

Second Team
1. Jaimie Lannister - with both hands
2. The Hound
3. The Mountain
4. Khal Drogo
5. Bronz Yohn Royce - a badass from the Vale

Third Team
1. Victarion Greyjoy  - could be in the place of Bronz
2. Greatjohn Umber
3. The Knight of Flowers
4. Garlan the Galant
5. Bronn

   Not a bad list, a lot of tough fighters on every team. And you having Bronze Yohn on the 2nd team which makes me feel good about my own pick. But as StannisBamfatheon mentioned, where's King Bob? Was it an overslight? Some people have placed Brienne on their 2nd and 3rd teams. I can't see her getting on my 2nd team, but I can see her replacing Loras on the 3rd team, after all, she did beat him once already. Although it was a melee, it resembles actual combat to an extent.

StannisBamfatheon, on 28 June 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Ned over Jorah all day man.  And how is Rhaegar on your first team but Robert didn't even make any of them???  You know he like....killed Rhaegar in single combat right?  ^^^

   I would say Ned vs Jorah would be 55%-45% for Jorah, but Jorah has dropped off my 3rd team to make room for Victarion. I totally forgot about him.

Edited for grammar.

Edited by The Fallen, 28 June 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Gerold_Hightower]

The Fallen, on 28 June 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

   Not a bad list, a lot of tough fighters on every team. And you having Bronze Yohn on the 2nd team which makes me feel good about my own pick. But as StannisBamfatheon mentioned, where's King Bob? Was it an overslight? Some people have placed Brienne on their 2nd and 3rd teams. I can't see her getting on my 2nd team, but I can see her replacing Loras on the 3rd team, after all, she did beat him once already. Although it was a melee, it resembles actual combat to an extent.

Although we know that Robert killed Rhaegar (it is known) we also know he was a beast of a a man. But apart from that we do not know so much about him. On the other hand Rhaegar was more ... glamourous than Robert, well respected and aknowledged as a great (tourney) fighter. So I might be wrong but I will go with the westeros concensus here.

[Kittyhat]

The Fallen, on 28 June 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Yes, this is Westeros only.

   Who would Brienne unseat on the second team? We both have formidable fighters on the second team. I can't see Brienne taking out The Mountain, Bronze Yohn, The Red Viper, The Hound, Kingslayer, White Bull. Maybe Lewin Martell or Rhaegar, although I don't have the Prince on my 2nd team.

Why not? She handled Jaime while being handicapped by not wanting to kill him, while he was actively trying to kill her.  Sure, he was also handicapped by his condition and chained wrists (the latter not a terribly meaningful handicap given he was going to use both hands to wield his sword anyway and so didn't need to separate his wrists much), but all that really did was even things back up given how hard it is to fight with deadly weapons like swords in a way that you're only defending yourself without trying to hurt the other person.

Then when she got serious, she wound up kicking his ass pretty handily, which to me is enough to say she'd at least have a shot against him in a fight with no handicaps on either side.

And, I'm sorry ... who again on your list would Jaime not have had a chance against when he had two hands?

Hell, I see Loras being put on these lists, too, and who was he again? Oh right! He was that other guy whose ass Brienne also kicked, wasn't he?

Right, just remembered.

Edited by Kittyhat, 29 June 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[The Snowman]

The Fallen, on 28 June 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Snowman, I can see Victarion making my 3rd team. Brandon Stark is interesting. He was bigger and stronger than Ned and also wilder. There's just not enough information on him. As far as Ned, I'm a big fan (Nedhead?), but there's no way he's one of the top 15 fighters in Westeros.

Well there was low North rep so I picked who I thought were the best. Personally I think Brandon Stark would've been a lot like Robert in his prime and this seems like he would've been a great fighter. I put Ned Stark in because he was fighting Jaime Lannister and being fine with it, Lead men into battle through two wars and most probably fought with Robert as they were growing up. And survived a fight against 3 KG when they were actually the the best in the Kingdoms. I see no reason why Ned shouldn't be in there. Im not saying he's Barristan Selmy or Jaime Lannister but he;s certainly no slouch.

Kittyhat, on 29 June 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

Why not? She handled Jaime while being handicapped by not wanting to kill him, while he was actively trying to kill her.  Sure, he was also handicapped by his condition and chained wrists (the latter not a terribly meaningful handicap given he was going to use both hands to wield his sword anyway and so didn't need to separate his wrists much), but all that really did was even things back up given how hard it is to fight with deadly weapons like swords in a way that you're only defending yourself without trying to hurt the other person.

Then when she got serious, she wound up kicking his ass pretty handily, which to me is enough to say she'd at least have a shot against him in a fight with no handicaps on either side.

And, I'm sorry ... who again on your list would Jaime not have had a chance against when he had two hands?

Hell, I see Loras being put on these lists, too, and who was he again? Oh right! He was that other guy whose ass Brienne also kicked, wasn't he?

Right, just remembered.

Exactly Brienne is a very good fighter and I think being a woman she might actually be smart enough to think about how to defeat people like the Hound and Mountain. By that I mean that not being a man and being testosterone head she might do things differently. She deals death to whoever gets in her way from what I've seen.

The Mountain is good but its he's good because he's huge and super strong which is why he can where lots of heavy wide armour.

[Loose Bolton]

This is all pretty problematic b/c of situational matchups.

for example

Gregor would beat Robert b/c Gregor negates Robert's strengths.
Red Viper beats Gregor b/c of quickness...but
Robert beats Red Viper b/c quickness negated.

[Bouda]

1st String
The Sword of The Morning
Barristan the Bold
The Kingslayer
The Hound
The mountain that Rides
Young Robert
The Smiling Knight (one of Jaime's proudest achievements is that he hold his own which factoring in his bias I interpret as he didn't entirely get his ass kicked)

2nd String
Rheagar
The Red Viper
The White Bull
Drogo

3rd String
Balon Swann
Garlan the Gallant
The Halfhand
Bronn
Brienne the Beauty
Victarion Greyjoy