76 replies to this topic

[Tysha Lannister]

Head of Ned, on 13 July 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

To answer the question: No, I don't think Shae ever really loved Tyrion, and I think her "piling on" with her comments and detail at the trial indicate that she may have actually resented having slept with an ugly dwarf (as he's described in the books). I do, however, believe Tyrion did love Shae, at least insofar as Tyrion can love, having been the victim of such deceit and heartbreak in the name of love over the course of his life.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Unfortunately, Tyrion has never been able to trust his feelings because he is so often betrayed!  I think that's why he's the only character with whom I have any emotional investment.  There are some others I like, but Tyrion is my favorite.  My heart broke for him when Shae betrayed him, but Tywin's betrayal was unsurprising.  GOOD RIDDANCE to them both!

[Cora Stark]

I believe Shae never was IN love with Tyrion, but I think she enjoyed that he never treated her like a 'common whore'. Until she acted on heartless loveless instinct as she betrayed Tyrion.

Edited by Cora Stark, 07 October 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[dustyboy316]

I don't think so.  The show better kill her off in the same way.  I can't wait.  My girlfriend is thoroughly convinced she's a great person... Same with Cat.  She absolutely loves Cat... can't wait to see her reactions to these.

[Amandine]

Shae only loved Tyrion the way that a junkie loves his welfare check and foodstamps. Tyrion was her milk cow, her sponsor. She loved what Tyrion was able to get her, and if she had to do some things that were disgusting to her sensibilities in order to secure her own comforts, then that's the price she had to pay to get what she wanted. When she was in the manse in King's Landing, she had no qualms about inviting the singer to perform for her, and because of that indiscretion, Tyrion had to have him offed before Joffrey's wedding. When it came down to the trial, Shae knew that there would be no way to recover the jewels and clothes that she had had to abandon when she became a maid unless she betrayed Tyrion. She probably either instigated the liaison with Tywin in hopes of being given her things back, or did not protest it when he approached her, because she had not been able to tell them where Sansa had gone and had probably thought there was no other way to get what she had felt that she had earned, and in her mind earned tenfold.

Now in regards to Tywin pulling the strings in having Shae being given to Tyrion from the beginning, I don't know if that would have been possible. She was a camp follower that Bronn had found for Tyrion, but she very well could have been hired by Tywin. She did come from Tywin's camp originally, and Tywin did know of her existence before Tyrion was sent to King's Landing, because that is why she was put into hiding. So, anything's possible....

[direwolf_of_white_fangs]

Shae never truly loved Tyrion although in the beggining of their relationship we are almost made to believe she did by the author.

But after the situation starts getting tough for the Imp she not only immediately abandons him but helps his enemies.

She testifies against him in the Imp's judgment and breaks his heart.

She is just a cheap whore who sells for the highest bidder.

[Éadaoin]

Shae never loved Tyrion, like others have said. She was looking out for herself. She wasn't the most likable character, but I feel badly that she died the way she did.

[Lummel]

She never loved Tyrion but Tyrion liked to imagine that they had a love affair even though he had made a contract with her to be his sexual companion and was paying her (at least with jewels and clothes).  Any romantic lustre to the relationship really comes from Tyrion's imagination.  It colours our reading because we almost entirely only ever see Shae through Tyrion's POV chapters and thus through his eyes.

[sharm_dracarys]

I agree that Shae never loved Tyrion and I do believe that Tywin bought her off before she went to KL... but how did she end up in Tywin's bed? That confuses me... I guess seeing the weakness of Tywin Lannister took a while to settle with me. I would imagine that he paid her to testify against Tyrion but I didn't expect him to indulge in some whoring.

[mormont]

sunxiaohu, on 13 July 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

Call me a softie, but I always hoped that Shae and Tyrion's relationship was more substantial than it seemed. Tyrion needed her, in a way. He couldn't feel safe or at rest without her. I always felt great sympathy for Tyrion, especially because of his resourcefulness, and the way he protected Sansa. I should have liked for him to have a place where he could be happy, but even Shae was an ugly lie.

I can understand this, because we see the Shae/Tyrion relationship solely from Tyrion's point of view, and he spends much of that trying to convince himself that their relationship is more substantial than it actually is. It is a lie: but it's a lie Tyrion is telling himself, and a lie he is actually paying Shae to play along with. Whose fault is it that he believes it? He tells himself this lie over and over, and he tells himself that it is a lie, but he wants to believe it. He sets up a situation where he can believe it. And then he blames Shae for the fact that he believed it. And he kills her for lying to him, a lie he paid her to tell.

I have much sympathy for Tyrion over a number of things, but in this, I have none. Shae never loved him and Tyrion knew that for a fact. He pretended that she did, and then he killed her for it.

Edited by mormont, 14 November 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[sastelise]

No. At least not in the books. There is enough evidence to support the idea that she was only in it for the money. She keeps insisting on wanting to wear her fine clothes and jewels even when Tyrion is trying to protect her by having her dress plainly when in Lady Tanda's service. He assumes that this demonstrates a certain innocence on her part - that she doesn' know how much danger she's in - but how naive can a prostitute really be? The testimony she gives at Tyrion's trial is unneccesarily detailed and titilating. I think she was already in Tywin's service at that point and was trying to please Tywin.

Because Tywin explicitly stated that Tyrion should not bring Shae to the capital, he must have anticipated that his son would disobey. My theory is that he sought her out as soon as the the battle of blackwater was over and paid her to try to "out" Tyrion in some way. Though Tyrion was careful, his mistake was falling in love with her. The suspicion always in the back of his mind, that Shae was only using him, was correct.

Her comments about the rape of Lady Tanda's daughter also make her an unfavorable/unsympathetic character. Shae was so spoiled by Tyrion that she probably didn't think that anything as terrible as being gang raped could happen to her.  It showed that she didn't really have any feelings of compassion - that she's the type of person that will only look out for herself.

[Feather Crystal]

I think Tywin hired Shae from the very beginning. Just his very statement forbidding her to come to King's Landing was his way of insuring that Tyrion would bring her. I do think Shae had some feelings for Tyrion that grew over time, but it wasn't enough to overcome her own fears, otherwise she should have confided in Tyrion all the shenanigans going on that Tywin put her up to.

[Lummel]

No.  Shae was a prostitute.  Tyrion bought sex from her.  She owed him no loyalty or service beyond that.

[Errant Bard]

sastelise, on 19 November 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

She keeps insisting on wanting to wear her fine clothes and jewels even when Tyrion is trying to protect her by having her dress plainly when in Lady Tanda's service.

I agree with the rest of your post, Shae is indeed lazy, greedy and dumb (though that's still no reason to murder her because you believed your own lie)...

But just on this part: Tyrion is not trying to protect her; if he was, he would have sent her away, with her gold, jewels, and clothes. No, Tyrion is just trying to keep his fucktoy available for himself, and the problem comes from the fact that Shae is not actually his obedient slave, and wants actual payment for her service. Who would stay put when their boss tells them that he's putting them in danger, so he strips them off all their past gains, but they still have to work without pay, and closer to danger? I mean, really?

[mormont]

Quite. Shae would have been in no danger at all if Tyrion had simply called the whole thing off. Instead he obsesses on how to keep her 'safe', for a specific definition of 'safe' that includes him being able to see her (and remain in control her life).

[Lummel]

Errant Bard, on 23 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

...and the problem comes from the fact that Shae is not actually his obedient slave, and wants actual payment for her service...

Still worse Shae challenges Tyrion explicitly by asking him why he is still frightened of his father and why doesn't he just kill Cersei and implicitly by behaving at times like a prostitute which jars with Tyrion's fantasty (Tyrion X ACOK).  Shae isn't a slave but a woman with her own ambitions and desires but Tyrion believes he can trump that with gold and when necessary violence.

[Death By Fire]

No, I don't think she ever loved him and he was a fool if he thought that. I hope they don't change what happens to her in the show because I really liked it. Although her betrayal will be more painful there because their realtionship was altered a lot.

[tinyskeeveuk]

No, she has no feelings whatsoever for him. In fact, I'm of the believer that she was bought by Tywin from the very start. He bans Tyrion from bringing a whore to cort, and she practically begs to go. Tywin knows his son well enough to know which boundaries he will stretch and which he will obey. Whores are his vice.

Though I think Tywin bought Shae, I don't think he ever slept with her, despite her being in his rooms. There is a common theory that Tywin was poisoned by Oberyn (hence the privy trip) and Shae was drugged and smuggled in to Tywins room ready for Tyrion to find them together (let's face it, Varys hardly fought against Tyrions little side trip, did he? He gave instructions through the passages!)

To sum up. Shae was a catspaw for Tywin. She didn't love Tyrion.

[Rain of Castamere]

i think there is a difference between books and show.
in the show shae visits tyrion when hes wounded after the battle at the blackwater.
in the books this isnt so, is it?
Going from the books alone its hard to tell if she realy loved him.
Looking at the show i am more convinced.

[sbab20]

Left Wondering Whether, on 01 July 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

As they have already gone in such a completely different direction with Tyrion and Shae's show relationship, I wonder if they might change the circumstances of Shae's death. Perhaps they could have Tywin somehow causing her death, thus providing Tyrion with an even greater motivation to kill him in return. As others have noted, the show writers have often portrayed several characters (including Tyrion) in a somewhat less morally ambiguous light than their book counterparts. Avenging both of his true loves would be a more sympathetic and more straight-forward motive for show viewers to swallow. Also, I'm not sure if show viewers have been given the chance to really "feel" the depth of the wound left by Tyrion's experience with Tysha without insight into his inner monologues. These more tender and genuine scenes with Shae allow the viewer to see that side of Tyrion and to be more invested in his potential heartbreak.

I think they have a couple of options on the show to get Tyrion and Shae's relationship to a point where he would kill her, rather than changing the circumstances of her death.

1) Tyrion/Sansa - If Shae, for whatever reason, believes that the marriage is consummated, that might be enough to break the relationship.  Perhaps Tyrion decides to lie about it and decides not to tell Shae at first for security reasons?

2) Tywin gets a hold of her after Tyrion's arrest and threatens/intimidates her into testifying, then keeps her for himself against her will.  In fact, this makes the whole scenario even more tragic, since Tyrion would kill her thinking she betrayed him when in fact she still loved him all along.

[Elyrica]

I am positive that Shae never had any great feelings for Tyrion. She always turned their conversations to the jewels and fine clothes Tyrion had bought her. I think she got drunk on Tyrions generosity and care, as well as greedy for more. That is why she turned on Tyrion at the trial. She found out they believed her to be a maid and not a whore, and she just played along to benefit herself. I am convinced, that she went to Tywin to play the hurt and innocent girl and used all tricks in the book to seduce the old man. In my head Tywin was always against whores - he just had no idea that Shae was one. Well, in my head.
So I think when Tyrion saw Shae in his fathers bed, and she suddenly started pleading with him, that he realised she was just a golddigging whore. And therefore I think that he killed her to say that it does not matter if his father was the richer or the mightier, Tyrion was 'giant' enough to be able to do what he wanted.