66 replies to this topic

[Bib Fortuna]

Even though we have statements from GRRM saying that they are not the same person, I finally found something in the text that supports his statement.

AFFC, Jaime I, page 172:

Quote

"The black cells are little used. Before your lordship's little brother was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order. I made note of that in a report as well, you may be certain of it."

So there you have it. The three prisoners that Longwaters is referring to are obviously Rorge, Biter and Jaqen. And since Ned signed them over to the Night's Watch before he was arrested, that means Jaqen was already a prisoner before Syrio's confrontation with Meryn Trant. So they cannot possibly be the same person.

It's always great to find these little gems in the text.

[The Last Giant]

He could have killed one of the three and taken his identity

[JJtheCrow]

I've never believed Syrio=Jaquen.  I would take this passage and rationally assume you have debunked the theory but rationality seems to go out the window.  I would love to say you have put this theory to rest but you may have just added fuel to the fire.  Let the fun begin!!!

[Lummel]

Thunderfistl, on 02 July 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

He could have killed one of the three and taken his identity

How?  The black cells are single prisoner cells not common rooms.

JJtheCrow, on 02 July 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

I've never believed Syrio=Jaquen.  I would take this passage and rationally assume you have debunked the theory but rationality seems to go out the window.  I would love to say you have put this theory to rest but you may have just added fuel to the fire.  Let the fun begin!!!

If you look back over the numerous past threads on this you'll find that this passage has been mentioned and explained in everyone of them since AFFC was published.

Nothing apparently can overcome a determined belief in the indestructability of Syrio.

[Bib Fortuna]

Of course, this passage doesn't necessarily prove that Syrio is dead, just that he's not Jaqen. I'd like to believe Syrio is alive, but it just doesn't seem likely.

[Sailing the sunset sea]

Good catch.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Lummel, on 02 July 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Nothing apparently can overcome a determined belief in the indestructability of Syrio.

Just so.

[John W]

If Syrio=Jaqen then why would he not reveal himself to Arya? What reason would he have for holding back?

[salt]

Syrio be gone yallz.

Edited by salt, 02 July 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Apple Martini]

The continued belief in Syrio's survival is one of those things I'll never get. Wanting him to be alive, sure. Actually believing it, no.

[Im no Ser]

Bib Fortuna, on 02 July 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Of course, this passage doesn't necessarily prove that Syrio is dead, just that he's not Jaqen. I'd like to believe Syrio is alive, but it just doesn't seem likely.

Caveat:  I think Syrio's dead.  I don't think there is any real evidence to suggest otherwise, or that he's Jaquen.

That said, what this passage proves is that there was a Jaquen in the black cells when Syrio was alive.  It is theoretically possible that FM Syrio could have killed and replaced the real Jaquen at some point between Syrio's "death" and Jaquen's presence in the wagon.

[Lummel]

I, on 02 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

...It is theoretically possible that FM Syrio could have killed and replaced the real Jaquen at some point between Syrio's "death" and Jaquen's presence in the wagon.

Yes if you credit Syrio with a range of superpowers and unlimited knowledge.  Otherwise no, not really.

[A wilding]

Well, it is theoretically possible. You just need to come up with a mechanism by which he escaped death and then managed to murder and replace a high security prisoner without causing any alert.

Then you need to explain why he wanted to go to the Wall in chains, as opposed to just walking up to Yoren with a suitable cover story and volunteering.

[Dracarya]

You found nothing.

[Lummel]

A wilding, on 02 July 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Well, it is theoretically possible. You just need to come up with a mechanism by which he escaped death and then managed to murder and replace a high security prisoner without causing any alert.

Then you need to explain why he wanted to go to the Wall in chains, as opposed to just walking up to Yoren with a suitable cover story and volunteering.

and know that by murdering and replacing said high security prisoner in such a way that there was no suspicion of anything dodgy going on he could get out of the city - I don't see this without a range of super powers and unlimited knowledge.  But for sure that is theoretically possible in a fantasy novel.  

ETA Dracarya!  You're not meant to be smoking so much!

Edited by Lummel, 02 July 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[Buckwheat]

Syrio is dead. The evidence like that the OP posted - a great catch! - settles it, I think. Some people still will not believe it. But, funny, I have not seen those threads lately, at least not as much as when I first joined.

[Axon]

I'm not 100% sure Syrio is dead, as GRRM has been very cryptic about it (and has passed on numerous chances to put the issue to rest).  However, I do not think JQ is Syrio.

[Neo]

Whether Syrio is alive or dead is unknown.  It is known.

Just so.

[Grimwolfe]

i think it would be more interesting if syrio wasn't jaqen, but still alive, maybe in braavos, though we never actually meet him again, maybe just get a passing description of someone that is the same as syrio

though that being said, i don't see how the issue wouldn't have been brought up when talking about Meryn Trant before if he did escape, seeing as a KG letting a dancing master escape him would be something to talk about

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I never believed the theory, and GRRM was wondering why some people thought Syrio Forel to be alive.
Textual evidence is always welcome though.